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Dev Blog: Shake my Citadel

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Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#601 - 2015-05-15 16:34:04 UTC
I like the idea of being able to hire some really crappy NPCs to defend mah citadel from a lone entosis pilot as long as the price is near nothing.

JUSTK is recruiting
Black Pedro
Mine.
#602 - 2015-05-15 16:35:55 UTC
Morn Hylund wrote:
I think overall the new structure ideas are great. I do think though the idea a citadel will not automatically defend itself - i.e someone has to literally be present now for defense is a poor design concept. Not everyone plays Eve 24/7 or should be required to. Who is going to spend the time and investment to maintain a citadel if some solo player can d**k with it so easily? Especially in WH space?
The devblog clearly states there will be "vulnerability windows" like is the new Sov warfare. It uses an example of 2 hours, so if your structure has such a window it will be invulnerable to entosis links for 22h of the day. Plus there will be multiple reinforcement windows so if no one from your corp is online one day for some reason, you will have other chances to show up to defend.

If you can't manage that, you probably should make some more friends or stick to smaller structures in the first place.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#603 - 2015-05-15 17:10:28 UTC
afkalt wrote:

To be fair, at no point did anyone mention in the other blogs that defenses wouldn't fire without an meat sack in there. That's a pretty damned major thing and it's rather underhanded of CCP to not mention it before now.

Given you were the single most active poster emitting the cry of "if you can't have someone online to defend it, you don't deserve it" in the fozziesov devblog, I am caught midway between stunned silence and hysterical laughter. Wasn't this exactly what you were campaigning for? No NPC protection, bare minimal attacker effort required to create a threat? This is what you asked for, and given the weight of posts you made on the subject, I wouldn't be surprised if your voice contributed, even in some way, to this version of the rules.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#604 - 2015-05-15 17:27:30 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Yes indeed, however WH'ers do rather pose a different bag of cats, don't they?

Being online to defend is a very different beast in a wormhole where a mere two jumps away might cease to exist over the course of thirty seconds.

Null players can be ratting a few systems over, return to contest...WH'ers....yeah that's one HELL of a gamble.

The only common ground between null and WH, really, is the security status.


tl;dr: Null alliances living in the space stay in the zip code, the WH dudes cannot afford to even go out the front door for fear it locks behind them.


Edit: I'm also not too proud to concede I overlooked WH dwellers, however in a *SOV* rebalance I'm not that surprised. Mind you, looks like CCP are too, so I'm at least in good company.
Fredric Wolf
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#605 - 2015-05-15 17:46:26 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Yes indeed, however WH'ers do rather pose a different bag of cats, don't they?

Being online to defend is a very different beast in a wormhole where a mere two jumps away might cease to exist over the course of thirty seconds.

Null players can be ratting a few systems over, return to contest...WH'ers....yeah that's one HELL of a gamble.

The only common ground between null and WH, really, is the security status.


tl;dr: Null alliances living in the space stay in the zip code, the WH dudes cannot afford to even go out the front door for fear it locks behind them.


Edit: I'm also not too proud to concede I overlooked WH dwellers, however in a *SOV* rebalance I'm not that surprised. Mind you, looks like CCP are too, so I'm at least in good company.


Here are my thoughts on WH they were supposed to be tough to live in but also offered the best rewards for time/isk. With these changes I do not think it is going to be half as bad as people are making it out to be. Why should one area of space not have to be there to defend its stuff just like the rest of EVE? People keep using the same argument that we might be in a different worm hole and we might not be able to get back. Well guess what we can not be on the other side of eve attacking people any longer either when our window time is open.
Fzhal
#606 - 2015-05-15 17:48:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Fzhal
Ocean Ormand wrote:
CCP frequently throws a lot of time/money at an issue and comes up with something that is not what the players want and is just unfun. CQ, minigame/spew, and industry teams are recent examples. The industry teams were so bad that it was pulled back while CQ and the minigame appear to have been abandoned with no further development for them being made. Accordingly,it is never to late to rally against a bad idea. The entosis link as all the earmarks for being a bad idea. So even though CCP seems hell bent on implementing it, it is not too late to rally against it being spread beyond sov structures to the new-pos.

While I understand why people are spouting doomsday predictions about these mechanics, I don't think they are warranted.

They said that not all size structures are going to necessarily have the same capture mechanics. They specifically said that the Medium mechanics might not require more than one Entosis session, which I think was a bit of an extreme possibility.
  • XL are going to be tied to Sov and cost about as much as an Outpost. So only LARGE alliances will build these (or a few stupid people) and the region capture mode makes sense to me.
  • L are sized for medium sized corps or alliances, and it is unclear whether the node-capture mechanic would be attached to these structures. Ultimately (IMHO), the type of capture mechanics will probably be determined by the cost of the structures.
  • M are for solo or small corps.


    • Keeping in mind the number of users per structure... Here is how I think the capture mechanics should be setup:
  • XL - High/Low/Null: Region capture mechanics with 3 stages as outlined by Sov mechanics.
  • XL - Wormholes: IMHO - If some WH alliance is silly enough to put an XL in a hole, then they should have to capture nodes in their WH chain... with 3 stages as outlined by Sov mechanics.

  • L - I see a few good options here, depending on the cost of the structure. (Remember that this is for medium sized corps/alliances)
  • L (A) Region capture mechanics with 3 stages as outlined by Sov mechanics.
  • L (B) Two-step process where the first step is Entosis-ing the structure and the second step capturing nodes scattered throughout multiple systems. (WH mechanics would make this a nightmare.)
  • L (C) Three-steps with 2-3 where someone has to capture nodes that are only in the same system as the structure. (I think this option will be chosen BECAUSE of wormholes...)

  • M (A) - Two-step where the second step is capturing nodes only in the same system as the structure.
  • M (B) - Two-step where second step the attacker must Entosis the structure again without dying to the guns.

    • * With the new feature of being able to anchor structures anywhere in system, and taking them down requiring multiple days, I think that the new WH siege method will evolve to use Medium and large staging towers for the hostiles, especially if cloning facilities are allowed in them.
    Fzhal
    #607 - 2015-05-15 17:52:44 UTC
    Fredric Wolf wrote:
    Here are my thoughts on WH they were supposed to be tough to live in but also offered the best rewards for time/isk. With these changes I do not think it is going to be half as bad as people are making it out to be. Why should one area of space not have to be there to defend its stuff just like the rest of EVE? People keep using the same argument that we might be in a different worm hole and we might not be able to get back. Well guess what we can not be on the other side of eve attacking people any longer either when our window time is open.

    Unless you remember that you can jump-clone, and wormholers can't...
    Obil Que
    Star Explorers
    Solis Tenebris
    #608 - 2015-05-15 17:53:00 UTC
    Fredric Wolf wrote:
    Here are my thoughts on WH they were supposed to be tough to live in but also offered the best rewards for time/isk. With these changes I do not think it is going to be half as bad as people are making it out to be. Why should one area of space not have to be there to defend its stuff just like the rest of EVE? People keep using the same argument that we might be in a different worm hole and we might not be able to get back. Well guess what we can not be on the other side of eve attacking people any longer either when our window time is open.


    Look at it this way, if you go out to defend your structure from attack, do you have the chance to be irrevocably removed from the system you're defending? Not podded back to your station to get into another ship. Removed. Podding + hole closing = inaccessible system. It's not a OMG the sky is falling DEATH TO WH problem but it's a concern and like most, it hits smaller groups the hardest. Since Medium Citadels are supposed to be for "individuals and small corporations" per the blog, I'm not sure that it translates well when placed into wormhole space where the geography is unique from all other space.
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #609 - 2015-05-15 18:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
    Obil Que wrote:
    Fredric Wolf wrote:
    Here are my thoughts on WH they were supposed to be tough to live in but also offered the best rewards for time/isk. With these changes I do not think it is going to be half as bad as people are making it out to be. Why should one area of space not have to be there to defend its stuff just like the rest of EVE? People keep using the same argument that we might be in a different worm hole and we might not be able to get back. Well guess what we can not be on the other side of eve attacking people any longer either when our window time is open.


    Look at it this way, if you go out to defend your structure from attack, do you have the chance to be irrevocably removed from the system you're defending? Not podded back to your station to get into another ship. Removed. Podding + hole closing = inaccessible system. It's not a OMG the sky is falling DEATH TO WH problem but it's a concern and like most, it hits smaller groups the hardest. Since Medium Citadels are supposed to be for "individuals and small corporations" per the blog, I'm not sure that it translates well when placed into wormhole space where the geography is unique from all other space.




    I was going to post, but you beat me to it.

    It is one thing to remain in the local area (3-4 jumps away is no big deal), i.e. the space owned as I argued for in the main thread, it is quite another thing for WH guys.

    However, as it stands what WILL happen is holes will simply be closed at the window with OCD and alacrity the likes of which you've rarely seen before. If they can't go out, no-one is going in. Content denial for all is just crap.

    There is a pretty fundamental difference to being "on the other side of eve", compared to one jump away with no pod express available.


    Really, it's not a deal breaker, WH life won't crash and burn, alts will be employed as required but the existing ruleset is ... meh. Hell I mean unless I missed it, saving/killing a WH structure is going to be a nightmare of epic proportion with the points spawning in places you might never even be able to connect to.

    Tbh, it is like they forgot WH space even existed when they came up with the concept. I was guilty of this too.
    EvilweaselSA
    GoonCorp
    Goonswarm Federation
    #610 - 2015-05-15 18:24:39 UTC
    afkalt wrote:
    Yes indeed, however WH'ers do rather pose a different bag of cats, don't they?

    Being online to defend is a very different beast in a wormhole where a mere two jumps away might cease to exist over the course of thirty seconds.

    Null players can be ratting a few systems over, return to contest...WH'ers....yeah that's one HELL of a gamble.

    The only common ground between null and WH, really, is the security status.


    tl;dr: Null alliances living in the space stay in the zip code, the WH dudes cannot afford to even go out the front door for fear it locks behind them.


    Edit: I'm also not too proud to concede I overlooked WH dwellers, however in a *SOV* rebalance I'm not that surprised. Mind you, looks like CCP are too, so I'm at least in good company.

    "i am only in favor of things being a pain in the ass for not-me, when it comes to me suddenly i understand why it's dumb. but only for me, there will be no introspection here, good day sir."
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #611 - 2015-05-15 18:30:38 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
    Well that was a stunningly mature response, bravo.

    I have not changed my stance on sovnull, but I've realised WH are a different beast. I didn't see you all in that thread crying that wormholes would suffer either so you'll forgive me if I ignore your slight and continue with the thread.

    Or I suppose I could sit with you guys and laugh at WH guys, but since that's a dickmove, I'll pass. It won't make any difference to me, I'm just trying to make sure that certain areas don't disproportionately suffer as a side effect of shattering the blue doughnut.
    Takeo Yanumano
    Doomheim
    #612 - 2015-05-15 18:53:05 UTC
    Quote:
    By being granted the ability to dock in these new structures


    This was some pages back, but I thought it good to respond. I missed the part where docking instead of sitting in a forcefield became a desirable thing for w-space dwellers.

    Also, I live in w-space and didn't make a sound at all about fozziesov. I didn't oppose it, but I also didn't welcome it or laugh at null dwellers over it, as it simply did not apply to me. It would be nice if the same courtesy could be offered me and others who live in w-space when we express our concerns over our home space suddenly becoming effectively "null with randomized, moving stargates and still no jumpclones".
    Pook600
    Ranger Industries
    The Rogue Consortium
    #613 - 2015-05-15 18:53:30 UTC
    Quit trying to reinvent the wheel about EVERYTHING.

    I like the overalls on these, but the defense ideas are idiotic.

    Stick to what is already possible with POS's.
    Let it defend itself with the weapons you put on board.
    Keep the notifications for structure aggression
    Leave the "vulnerability timer" for when it comes out of reinforcement mode.

    Doing it any other way screws over the small players/corps and makes it harder to enjoy the game (that is what we're trying to accomplish, right?), than this proposed system of ridiculousness.
    Fzhal
    #614 - 2015-05-15 19:06:32 UTC
    I'm still curious as to how they are going to explain why node capture mechanics are needed in game. It'd be nice to get a blurb like:

    Quote:
    Scope New Network:
    "New Eden's Engineers have discovered that the recently invented Entosis Link is able to circumvent the security measures of all Pilot Owned Structures. In reaction, the companies came together to find a solution to this problem. Simply stated, regardless of how security is placed into these systems, they will all still be susceptible because the security measures are centralized. New structures are currently being designed to take advantage of distributed security measures so that pilots will have a large degree of warning and ability to combat those that would attack their structures.

    Again, in the long-term, they found no way to permanently stop Entosis Links from exploiting the vulnerabilities in New Eden's current structures. However, in the short-term, they have developed and deployed a software patch that should deter Entosis Link attacks long enough for new structures, with distributed security measures, to be manufactured and deployed to New Eden pilots."
    Fredric Wolf
    Black Sheep Down
    Tactical Narcotics Team
    #615 - 2015-05-15 19:14:55 UTC
    Obil Que wrote:
    Fredric Wolf wrote:
    Here are my thoughts on WH they were supposed to be tough to live in but also offered the best rewards for time/isk. With these changes I do not think it is going to be half as bad as people are making it out to be. Why should one area of space not have to be there to defend its stuff just like the rest of EVE? People keep using the same argument that we might be in a different worm hole and we might not be able to get back. Well guess what we can not be on the other side of eve attacking people any longer either when our window time is open.


    Look at it this way, if you go out to defend your structure from attack, do you have the chance to be irrevocably removed from the system you're defending? Not podded back to your station to get into another ship. Removed. Podding + hole closing = inaccessible system. It's not a OMG the sky is falling DEATH TO WH problem but it's a concern and like most, it hits smaller groups the hardest. Since Medium Citadels are supposed to be for "individuals and small corporations" per the blog, I'm not sure that it translates well when placed into wormhole space where the geography is unique from all other space.



    It would be a larger problem if you didn't have multiple timers on these. Yeah you will have to watch these a little more closely then what you are watching POS's but if you can not make the 2nd or 3rd timer where you have the exact time to be there. Then I can not help you.

    Also we do not know what will be allowed or not allowed in WH's I would be 100% on board with allowing clones if you are killed in that system to spawn you in your citadel on these but if you are in another it would default back to your birth station.
    afkalt
    Republic Military School
    Minmatar Republic
    #616 - 2015-05-15 19:22:32 UTC
    Fredric Wolf wrote:
    Obil Que wrote:
    Fredric Wolf wrote:
    Here are my thoughts on WH they were supposed to be tough to live in but also offered the best rewards for time/isk. With these changes I do not think it is going to be half as bad as people are making it out to be. Why should one area of space not have to be there to defend its stuff just like the rest of EVE? People keep using the same argument that we might be in a different worm hole and we might not be able to get back. Well guess what we can not be on the other side of eve attacking people any longer either when our window time is open.


    Look at it this way, if you go out to defend your structure from attack, do you have the chance to be irrevocably removed from the system you're defending? Not podded back to your station to get into another ship. Removed. Podding + hole closing = inaccessible system. It's not a OMG the sky is falling DEATH TO WH problem but it's a concern and like most, it hits smaller groups the hardest. Since Medium Citadels are supposed to be for "individuals and small corporations" per the blog, I'm not sure that it translates well when placed into wormhole space where the geography is unique from all other space.



    It would be a larger problem if you didn't have multiple timers on these. Yeah you will have to watch these a little more closely then what you are watching POS's but if you can not make the 2nd or 3rd timer where you have the exact time to be there. Then I can not help you.




    If this has been answered previously, I apologise - I'm not trying to troll here.

    Last I heard the contest nodes spawn across a constellation - obviously this is a nonsense concept for a WH - have we more detail on it I missed? An unsecured structure remains vulnerable if it passes the window unsecured so I can see this being a bit weird.

    Partially OT, but close enough, I reckon. I hazard that wont work like that in WH, as it's a 'mare for both attackers and defenders alike but details like this are pretty key to providing meaningful feedback.
    Laner Irondoll
    Hideaway Hunters
    The Hideaway.
    #617 - 2015-05-15 19:23:17 UTC
    Basically "get another account for your POS alt ".
    Obil Que
    Star Explorers
    Solis Tenebris
    #618 - 2015-05-15 19:23:41 UTC
    afkalt wrote:
    If this has been answered previously, I apologise - I'm not trying to troll here.

    Last I heard the contest nodes spawn across a constellation - obviously this is a nonsense concept for a WH - have we more detail on it I missed? An unsecured structure remains vulnerable if it passes the window unsecured so I can see this being a bit weird.

    Partially OT, but close enough, I reckon. I hazard that wont work like that in WH, as it's a 'mare for both attackers and defenders alike but details like this are pretty key to providing meaningful feedback.


    Constellation events are SOV and XL structure events only. M and L sized Citadels don't have this component.
    Fzhal
    #619 - 2015-05-15 19:25:51 UTC
    Fredric Wolf wrote:
    ... if you are killed in that (WH) system (you should) spawn in your citadel on these, but if you are in another it would default back to your birth station.

    So let me get this straight...
    Your ideas have been shown to be demonstrably invalid "Well guess what we can not be on the other side of eve attacking people (in K-Space) any longer either when our window time is open."
    You don't even live in wormholes.
    And you think that you know what is best for people in wormholes?

    Just take the high road and admit that you don't have the proper understanding to be able to suggest appropriate mechanics that should apply to wormholers...
    Rashaab merkava
    The Aureate
    #620 - 2015-05-15 19:25:53 UTC
    Will these citadel structures be able to be used in High-security space ?