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Dev Blog: Shake my Citadel

First post First post
Author
Milla Goodpussy
Garoun Investment Bank
#581 - 2015-05-15 10:03:58 UTC
Sequester Risalo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:


I'm kinda impressed with how slyly this was done by our dear devs, keeping quiet on this stage of things so that the wormholer and small group players fully support fozziesov and sov-wands, completely ignorant of the fact they were about to get a good big bite of that lemon too.



lol, isn't that how it always happens?

"Yay, CCP is doing stuff to other people and it's great...wait, what do you mean it's going to happen to me too? WTF? Bad idea....BAD IDEA!!!! Twisted


Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
The Entosis Link and Vulnerability Windows were first floated in Fozzies devblog over 10 weeks ago, as were the mechanics for using them to capture structures, and the fact that structure bashing as a thing is over. The time to try and stop that juggernaut was then; that ship has so far sailed now its off the horizon. I know, I know, you all thought it was just nullsec players getting it in the ass, and it was really funny too, but heres the reality, we are all getting it. The sooner you accept that you will be babysitting your structures through vulnerability windows, and you will be racing interceptors to capture nodes, and structure bashing in any form is gone and not coming back, the quicker you can focus on the fine details, because that is all you are changing at this late stage of the day.


Fozziesov was indeed introduced a while ago. But from my perception did relate to sov mechanics only. In my opinion POSes serve a completely different purpose which warrants a different approach.

Sov structures are by definition a thing of large nullsec entities.These should indeed be able to defend their space during the vulnerability window.
Wormhole POSes in low class wormholes are by design a thing of small corps or individual players. A larger group would starve in a low class hole. Now, in my opinion individuals cannot be expected to be online every single vulerability window.

Now I'm not threatening to unsub an armada of accounts. I'm simply stating that I am not willing to follow this requirement and adapt my playstyle. I might move to k-space and daytrip into wormholes. Maybe I will even pilot a trollceptor in adaption to the new mechanics.

The new system simply is in no way what CCP described it to be: "Of all the structures, we want these to be the most dedicated to asset safety, protection, and a feeling of home – just like when you are tucked inside your bed sheets while the elements rage outside. At your coziest you should be fortified in giant bunkers equipped with mega death rays to weather the storm." (Shake my citadel)

You won't be "tucked inside the bedsheets while the elements rage outside". You will have to stay awake and out of bed during the storm every other night running around the house with a gun ready to defend your home. You will. Not me. I will be safely sleeping in a station. waking up refreshed in the morning ready to face the day.

CCP will not reach their stated goal "Everyone who wants to use a structure, does: We want structures to be as widely used as possible, by removing artificial barriers or mechanics that may be in the way. This has to stay within a reasonable risk versus reward scope, of course, and as such the most rewarding structures should always be vulnerable to attack." (Back into structure) I would love to still use a structure. But I won't. I'm not storing my stuff in a container anchored outside the forcefield now and I won't store my stuff in a defenseless structure then.

Quite the opposite. I precdict less structures will be deployed.




oooh no you don't worm holer.. you cant escape from this fozzie-sov world order.. you think you slick.. low class wormholes my arse. you have worm hole dwellers now bragging how much they make in their so called "low-class" spaces.. yeah fozzie needs to nerf oops fozziesov that problem... I don't consider a C5-C6 wormhole that enables dreadnaughts to rat making billions in a matter of a few hours low class.. nope not gonna work.. im going to supply folks links just to go after you billionaires living in low class wormholes now :)
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#582 - 2015-05-15 10:11:46 UTC
Sequester Risalo wrote:

Sov structures are by definition a thing of large nullsec entities.These should indeed be able to defend their space during the vulnerability window.
Wormhole POSes in low class wormholes are by design a thing of small corps or individual players. A larger group would starve in a low class hole. Now, in my opinion individuals cannot be expected to be online every single vulerability window.


The thing is, I think the whole "wormhole life is ending" arguement is more than a little overblown. Wormholes provide a level of defence that k-space doesn't have. By being granted the ability to dock in these new structures, supported by the lack of local, you have a measure of defence-through-the-unknown than nullsec wont have.

Someone roams in to one of our systems and sees no-one in local, its entosis-time. They can see we aren't there, and they know at a galance at Dotlan how many people may be spread across how many systems, and a glance at map data will give a clue if there is an active roaming defence fleet nearby that can cover the distance during your modul cycle time.

If someone jumps in to your hole and sees your structure in its vulnerability window, and finds no ships on scan, they have to make a judgement call on absolutely no data. Sure, your entire corp may be logged off, or roaming several holes away (and if its the latter, I'm sorry, but the idea behind fozziesov is that people aren't allowed to do that any more without leaving a defence at home, you are not to be immune to this edict any more than I am), but there is a significant non-zero chance you have at least one guy logged on (either if he's doing something else) who can immediately splatter the impertinent entosiser with the station defences

Here is a friendly suggesstion if I was in your shoes - bait roamers in to activating their entosis. When they warp on grid, play possum and leave the defences dormant to trick them in to thinking you aren't there, then as soon as they activate the link and trap themselves on grid, its time to unload the full firepower! Sure, the first few weeks are going to be a pain in the ass (as the first few weeks of Fozziesov will be for us), but once you've trained the roamers that things aren't going to be an easy trollfest, things should normalise.


Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#583 - 2015-05-15 10:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Kolonko
Dear CCP. I want to repeat the need for loot drop in WH.

In most use cases in WH we dont atack poses to get rid of them so we can place our own. No. We attack them for loot. We get huge piniata or we get next to nothing and go home.

In null/low/hi you can easily justify validity of loot can spawns when someone tries to extract their stuff. It can be days, weeks, months, but you can have eyes in a system and can get fleet up and running to target system quite fast. In WH we can not realistically hold ground for weeks. We can not just leave people in a system and do nothing. We have to get back to our own home and even if we leave scout there is a small chance to get new connection fast enough to respond.

Now i am not saying that this whole mechanics can not work in wh. What im saying is that version proposed for null starions will not work for wh starions.

Look at wh siege like a time schedule.
-You go in thursday or friday night to reinfoce tower (entosis it to the ground)
- on Saturday and sunday you finish the pos
- now you can realistically assume that if anything hunt for loot should take place on sunday evening tops.

As an alternative there may be a time window when loot can be extracted, known upfront but forward in tome enough that either attacjers will not want to come back or defenders have mote then enough time to properly prepare for it.

As an addidtion this timer will be spotted by other entities creating real pit if doon for various corps competing for loot

Pls bear in mind that its not an easy task to get huge forces into well defended system and we would love to be compensated for the effort. Also take a look at current null and wh meta. In null you fight for space. In wh you fight for loot. In null you take over station while in wh you get a roll on a loot die.

Dont take the loot die from us.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#584 - 2015-05-15 11:00:52 UTC
Milla Goodpussy wrote:
Sequester Risalo wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:


I'm kinda impressed with how slyly this was done by our dear devs, keeping quiet on this stage of things so that the wormholer and small group players fully support fozziesov and sov-wands, completely ignorant of the fact they were about to get a good big bite of that lemon too.



lol, isn't that how it always happens?

"Yay, CCP is doing stuff to other people and it's great...wait, what do you mean it's going to happen to me too? WTF? Bad idea....BAD IDEA!!!! Twisted


Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
The Entosis Link and Vulnerability Windows were first floated in Fozzies devblog over 10 weeks ago, as were the mechanics for using them to capture structures, and the fact that structure bashing as a thing is over. The time to try and stop that juggernaut was then; that ship has so far sailed now its off the horizon. I know, I know, you all thought it was just nullsec players getting it in the ass, and it was really funny too, but heres the reality, we are all getting it. The sooner you accept that you will be babysitting your structures through vulnerability windows, and you will be racing interceptors to capture nodes, and structure bashing in any form is gone and not coming back, the quicker you can focus on the fine details, because that is all you are changing at this late stage of the day.


Fozziesov was indeed introduced a while ago. But from my perception did relate to sov mechanics only. In my opinion POSes serve a completely different purpose which warrants a different approach.

Sov structures are by definition a thing of large nullsec entities.These should indeed be able to defend their space during the vulnerability window.
Wormhole POSes in low class wormholes are by design a thing of small corps or individual players. A larger group would starve in a low class hole. Now, in my opinion individuals cannot be expected to be online every single vulerability window.

Now I'm not threatening to unsub an armada of accounts. I'm simply stating that I am not willing to follow this requirement and adapt my playstyle. I might move to k-space and daytrip into wormholes. Maybe I will even pilot a trollceptor in adaption to the new mechanics.

The new system simply is in no way what CCP described it to be: "Of all the structures, we want these to be the most dedicated to asset safety, protection, and a feeling of home – just like when you are tucked inside your bed sheets while the elements rage outside. At your coziest you should be fortified in giant bunkers equipped with mega death rays to weather the storm." (Shake my citadel)

You won't be "tucked inside the bedsheets while the elements rage outside". You will have to stay awake and out of bed during the storm every other night running around the house with a gun ready to defend your home. You will. Not me. I will be safely sleeping in a station. waking up refreshed in the morning ready to face the day.

CCP will not reach their stated goal "Everyone who wants to use a structure, does: We want structures to be as widely used as possible, by removing artificial barriers or mechanics that may be in the way. This has to stay within a reasonable risk versus reward scope, of course, and as such the most rewarding structures should always be vulnerable to attack." (Back into structure) I would love to still use a structure. But I won't. I'm not storing my stuff in a container anchored outside the forcefield now and I won't store my stuff in a defenseless structure then.

Quite the opposite. I precdict less structures will be deployed.




oooh no you don't worm holer.. you cant escape from this fozzie-sov world order.. you think you slick.. low class wormholes my arse. you have worm hole dwellers now bragging how much they make in their so called "low-class" spaces.. yeah fozzie needs to nerf oops fozziesov that problem... I don't consider a C5-C6 wormhole that enables dreadnaughts to rat making billions in a matter of a few hours low class.. nope not gonna work.. im going to supply folks links just to go after you billionaires living in low class wormholes now :)

You do know there is a huge difference between, a low class wormhole and the C5, C6's your fixated on?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#585 - 2015-05-15 11:07:57 UTC
Wormholes have deserved proper structures and cloning facilities for a long time. ...reasons including a learning implant workaround in particular, where you should get to swap clones in the same station without a timer penalty.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#586 - 2015-05-15 11:18:09 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Wormholes have deserved proper structures and cloning facilities for a long time. ...reasons including a learning implant workaround in particular, where you should get to swap clones in the same station without a timer penalty.


Agrie, stargates too.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#587 - 2015-05-15 11:30:58 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
Dear CCP. I want to repeat the need for loot drop in WH.

In most use cases in WH we dont atack poses to get rid of them so we can place our own. No. We attack them for loot. We get huge piniata or we get next to nothing and go home.

In null/low/hi you can easily justify validity of loot can spawns when someone tries to extract their stuff. It can be days, weeks, months, but you can have eyes in a system and can get fleet up and running to target system quite fast. In WH we can not realistically hold ground for weeks. We can not just leave people in a system and do nothing. We have to get back to our own home and even if we leave scout there is a small chance to get new connection fast enough to respond.

Now i am not saying that this whole mechanics can not work in wh. What im saying is that version proposed for null starions will not work for wh starions.

Look at wh siege like a time schedule.
-You go in thursday or friday night to reinfoce tower (entosis it to the ground)
- on Saturday and sunday you finish the pos
- now you can realistically assume that if anything hunt for loot should take place on sunday evening tops.

As an alternative there may be a time window when loot can be extracted, known upfront but forward in tome enough that either attacjers will not want to come back or defenders have mote then enough time to properly prepare for it.

As an addidtion this timer will be spotted by other entities creating real pit if doon for various corps competing for loot

Pls bear in mind that its not an easy task to get huge forces into well defended system and we would love to be compensated for the effort. Also take a look at current null and wh meta. In null you fight for space. In wh you fight for loot. In null you take over station while in wh you get a roll on a loot die.

Dont take the loot die from us.

I would be more concerned with invulnerability timers than how much loot you might not get.
A well placed timer means you get to do nothing unless you want to sit around till it becomes vulnerable. One would hope they don't completely break wormhole space like they are nul, by putting everything on crest.

Any smart WH group is going to have vulnerability set to the quietest TZ to minimize threat of discovery. Or at least when they can be online to use the Citadels defenses on you while safely tucked up inside it, where you can't shoot them.
Ray guns that can be shot by what they are trying to disable, replacing PVP.
In a pvp based game, that just makes so much sense.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#588 - 2015-05-15 11:54:26 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Grand Admiral Simo-Hayha wrote:
davet517 wrote:
The age of structure wars is upon us. Who will save the game from The Crimson Permanent Assurance?


Wait.

I feel like this is a Game of Thrones reference.


Monty Python.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Epsyla
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#589 - 2015-05-15 12:38:23 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Chirality Tisteloin wrote:
Good evening,

Question for clarification: docking in Citadels means the same as using the invulnerability link, right?

very interesting concepts! Thanx for sharing the blog.


No docking puts you inside and safe, but you still see the grid outside the station.

The invulnerability link (we need a new name for this, taking suggestions) provides security while you are undocked and mobile around the structure.




How about Sanctuary Sphere for those in the vicinity of structure ( and those docked or moored Aegis Coupling?
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#590 - 2015-05-15 13:40:55 UTC
Will you be able to temporary overheat your pos defences since they get a balance pass and all? Big smile
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#591 - 2015-05-15 14:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Obil Que
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Sequester Risalo wrote:

Sov structures are by definition a thing of large nullsec entities.These should indeed be able to defend their space during the vulnerability window.
Wormhole POSes in low class wormholes are by design a thing of small corps or individual players. A larger group would starve in a low class hole. Now, in my opinion individuals cannot be expected to be online every single vulerability window.


The thing is, I think the whole "wormhole life is ending" arguement is more than a little overblown. Wormholes provide a level of defence that k-space doesn't have. By being granted the ability to dock in these new structures, supported by the lack of local, you have a measure of defence-through-the-unknown than nullsec wont have.

Someone roams in to one of our systems and sees no-one in local, its entosis-time. They can see we aren't there, and they know at a galance at Dotlan how many people may be spread across how many systems, and a glance at map data will give a clue if there is an active roaming defence fleet nearby that can cover the distance during your modul cycle time.

If someone jumps in to your hole and sees your structure in its vulnerability window, and finds no ships on scan, they have to make a judgement call on absolutely no data. Sure, your entire corp may be logged off, or roaming several holes away (and if its the latter, I'm sorry, but the idea behind fozziesov is that people aren't allowed to do that any more without leaving a defence at home, you are not to be immune to this edict any more than I am), but there is a significant non-zero chance you have at least one guy logged on (either if he's doing something else) who can immediately splatter the impertinent entosiser with the station defences

Here is a friendly suggesstion if I was in your shoes - bait roamers in to activating their entosis. When they warp on grid, play possum and leave the defences dormant to trick them in to thinking you aren't there, then as soon as they activate the link and trap themselves on grid, its time to unload the full firepower! Sure, the first few weeks are going to be a pain in the ass (as the first few weeks of Fozziesov will be for us), but once you've trained the roamers that things aren't going to be an easy trollfest, things should normalise.


It's interesting to read very closely the blog (which even I admit now I missed this part - edited for brevity)


  • Medium sized Citadel structures will betailored for individual or small groups of players. They will be able to fit some appropriate defenses to offer resistance against most kind of assaults including capital ships.
  • Large sized Citadel structures will be around 25-50km in diameter and are made for corporations or even small alliances. They will offer more advanced functionality over medium-sized Citadels, mainly in the form of area of effect (AoE) defenses and facilities that are more tailored to support large fleets.
  • X-Large sized Citadel structures will be around 100km in diameter and are specialized for high-end alliance gameplay. On top of the mechanics listed above, they will have the best defensive options to face against particularly large groups


To highlight. Medium structures should be able to repel assaults up to and including capital ships. The blog details that these weapons would be most effective when supported by EWAR such as webs and target painters. How much that favors N+1 fleets to keep such support ships off the field remains to be seen
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#592 - 2015-05-15 14:16:33 UTC
Any reason w cannot reuse the current POS weaponry? So rather than having to come up with entirely new stuff as well as scrapping the old stuff, just convert them to fitted weapons?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Fzhal
#593 - 2015-05-15 14:25:58 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Any reason w cannot reuse the current POS weaponry? So rather than having to come up with entirely new stuff as well as scrapping the old stuff, just convert them to fitted weapons?

They've said there is currently more variety than they prefer. I'm guessing there is going to be a quarter of the options that we currently have. So while that may be possible, it wouldn't be a direct conversion.
Sequester Risalo
German Corps of Engineers 17
Federation of Respect Honor Passion Alliance.
#594 - 2015-05-15 14:58:51 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:

Someone roams in to one of our systems and sees no-one in local, its entosis-time. They can see we aren't there, and they know at a galance at Dotlan how many people may be spread across how many systems, and a glance at map data will give a clue if there is an active roaming defence fleet nearby that can cover the distance during your modul cycle time.

If someone jumps in to your hole and sees your structure in its vulnerability window, and finds no ships on scan, they have to make a judgement call on absolutely no data. Sure, your entire corp may be logged off, or roaming several holes away (and if its the latter, I'm sorry, but the idea behind fozziesov is that people aren't allowed to do that any more without leaving a defence at home, you are not to be immune to this edict any more than I am), but there is a significant non-zero chance you have at least one guy logged on (either if he's doing something else) who can immediately splatter the impertinent entosiser with the station defences

Here is a friendly suggesstion if I was in your shoes - bait roamers in to activating their entosis. When they warp on grid, play possum and leave the defences dormant to trick them in to thinking you aren't there, then as soon as they activate the link and trap themselves on grid, its time to unload the full firepower! Sure, the first few weeks are going to be a pain in the ass (as the first few weeks of Fozziesov will be for us), but once you've trained the roamers that things aren't going to be an easy trollfest, things should normalise.


Thank you for your friendly suggestion. But my problem is not, what to do with a stray trollceptor when I'm logged in and ready for battle. My problem is what happens when I'm NOT around (which is roughly 92% of the time). With a hafway decent POS setup it takes plenty ships with plenty dps to reinforce a tower. With fozziesov it takes two times 10 minutes for a single trollceptor.

Don't let the arguments about lootdrops fool you. People will take down structures for the luls or the killmail alone. This is no great repellent.

Maybe we had it coming. Maybe we should HTFU. Whatever. I heard C1 dwellers are notoriously rolling in ISK by the trillions.

I'm simply questioning the wisdom of applying a sov mechanic to unclaimable space.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#595 - 2015-05-15 15:15:28 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Sequester Risalo wrote:

Sov structures are by definition a thing of large nullsec entities.These should indeed be able to defend their space during the vulnerability window.
Wormhole POSes in low class wormholes are by design a thing of small corps or individual players. A larger group would starve in a low class hole. Now, in my opinion individuals cannot be expected to be online every single vulerability window.


The thing is, I think the whole "wormhole life is ending" arguement is more than a little overblown. Wormholes provide a level of defence that k-space doesn't have. By being granted the ability to dock in these new structures, supported by the lack of local, you have a measure of defence-through-the-unknown than nullsec wont have.

Someone roams in to one of our systems and sees no-one in local, its entosis-time. They can see we aren't there, and they know at a galance at Dotlan how many people may be spread across how many systems, and a glance at map data will give a clue if there is an active roaming defence fleet nearby that can cover the distance during your modul cycle time.

If someone jumps in to your hole and sees your structure in its vulnerability window, and finds no ships on scan, they have to make a judgement call on absolutely no data. Sure, your entire corp may be logged off, or roaming several holes away (and if its the latter, I'm sorry, but the idea behind fozziesov is that people aren't allowed to do that any more without leaving a defence at home, you are not to be immune to this edict any more than I am), but there is a significant non-zero chance you have at least one guy logged on (either if he's doing something else) who can immediately splatter the impertinent entosiser with the station defences

Here is a friendly suggesstion if I was in your shoes - bait roamers in to activating their entosis. When they warp on grid, play possum and leave the defences dormant to trick them in to thinking you aren't there, then as soon as they activate the link and trap themselves on grid, its time to unload the full firepower! Sure, the first few weeks are going to be a pain in the ass (as the first few weeks of Fozziesov will be for us), but once you've trained the roamers that things aren't going to be an easy trollfest, things should normalise.




To be fair, at no point did anyone mention in the other blogs that defenses wouldn't fire without an meat sack in there. That's a pretty damned major thing and it's rather underhanded of CCP to not mention it before now.

They've also been terribly lacking on detail on HOW a WH will actually contest across a constellation.

Remember in null you can never be locked out of your system when you own it, being podded in WH means bye bye hole access for a period. That's a HUGE game changer and something no other areas of space need to consider.

I can understand residents concern, I think elements are very valid, other's are less of a big deal but it is certainly not something to just hand-wave away.
Ocean Ormand
Bagel and Lox
#596 - 2015-05-15 15:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ocean Ormand
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Ocean Ormand wrote:

Whatever merit entosis links have for sov play - they certainly do not seem to belong with pos structures. If CCP is hell bent on making entrosis also apply to pos then it should be in addition to being able to bash a pos in the usual manner. That way an attacker can make a decision - use entrosis or just bring dps.


Obil Que wrote:

I will admit that my concerns are colored from being a wormhole resident. I'm not concerned with XL structures and the future capture mechanism that is applied but rather the M and L structures with the aforementioned multiple reinforce timers. But truly I am concerned that CCP is introducing a mechanic (no automatic, limited slots) that promotes structure babysitting during vulnerable windows and a solvable defense equation. All of this combined with a near-zero reward structure for your efforts does not make the entire system very appealing as a conflict mechanism.


Ocean Ormand wrote:

If its true that you have to chase after little missions in other systems in addition to showing up for the two or three reinforcement cycles, isnt that a much worse grind than what we have now?

Now to kill a tower - I shoot it, and if it is stornted come back for after reinforcement cycle to shoot it again. With the new system I have to shoot it at 2 or three vulnerable periods and go play whack a mole in an untold number of adjacent systems. Sounds worse to me.


The Entosis Link and Vulnerability Windows were first floated in Fozzies devblog over 10 weeks ago, as were the mechanics for using them to capture structures, and the fact that structure bashing as a thing is over. The time to try and stop that juggernaut was then; that ship has so far sailed now its off the horizon. I know, I know, you all thought it was just nullsec players getting it in the ass, and it was really funny too, but heres the reality, we are all getting it. The sooner you accept that you will be babysitting your structures through vulnerability windows, and you will be racing interceptors to capture nodes, and structure bashing in any form is gone and not coming back, the quicker you can focus on the fine details, because that is all you are changing at this late stage of the day.


CCP frequently throws a lot of time/money at an issue and comes up with something that is not what the players want and is just unfun. CQ, minigame/spew, and industry teams are recent examples. The industry teams were so bad that it was pulled back while CQ and the minigame appear to have been abandoned with no further development for them being made. Accordingly,it is never to late to rally against a bad idea. The entosis link as all the earmarks for being a bad idea. So even though CCP seems hell bent on implementing it, it is not too late to rally against it being spread beyond sov structures to the new-pos.
Morn Hylund
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#597 - 2015-05-15 15:50:51 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
All of this combined with a near-zero reward structure for your efforts does not make the entire system very appealing as a conflict mechanism.


I don't get this "near-zero reward" meme. There is a big reward by occupying and controlling space, and you do it by destroying your opponent's structures and citadels. The reward isn't as immediate as a loot drop, but it ain't a near-zero reward either.

Morn Hylund
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#598 - 2015-05-15 16:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Morn Hylund
Ocean Ormand wrote:



CCP frequently throws a lot of time/money at an issue and comes up with something that is not what the players want and is just unfun. CQ, minigame/spew, and industry teams are recent examples. The industry teams were so bad that it was pulled back while CQ and the minigame appear to have been abandoned with no further development for them being made. Accordingly,it is never to late to rally against a bad idea. The entosis link as all the earmarks for being a bad idea. So even though CCP seems hell bent on implementing it, it is not too late to rally against it being spread beyond sov structures to the new-pos.


I think overall the new structure ideas are great. I do think though the idea a citadel will not automatically defend itself - i.e someone has to literally be present now for defense is a poor design concept. Not everyone plays Eve 24/7 or should be required to. Who is going to spend the time and investment to maintain a citadel if some solo player can d**k with it so easily? Especially in WH space?
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#599 - 2015-05-15 16:29:25 UTC
Morn Hylund wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
All of this combined with a near-zero reward structure for your efforts does not make the entire system very appealing as a conflict mechanism.


I don't get this "near-zero reward" meme. There is a big reward by occupying and controlling space, and you do it by destroying your opponent's structures and citadels. The reward isn't as immediate as a loot drop, but it ain't a near-zero reward either.



Again, I speak from a wormhole perspective. We do not have that motivation to take space. We occupy one system and attack/destroy/kick over sandcastles for loot. There are some exceptions for specific types of wormholes or certain areas of wormhole space but in general there are more systems than people looking to occupy so loot is a primary motivator.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#600 - 2015-05-15 16:30:55 UTC
Morn Hylund wrote:
Ocean Ormand wrote:



CCP frequently throws a lot of time/money at an issue and comes up with something that is not what the players want and is just unfun. CQ, minigame/spew, and industry teams are recent examples. The industry teams were so bad that it was pulled back while CQ and the minigame appear to have been abandoned with no further development for them being made. Accordingly,it is never to late to rally against a bad idea. The entosis link as all the earmarks for being a bad idea. So even though CCP seems hell bent on implementing it, it is not too late to rally against it being spread beyond sov structures to the new-pos.


I think overall the new structure ideas are great. I do think though the idea a citadel will not automatically defend itself - i.e someone has to literally be present now for defense is a poor design concept. Not everyone plays Eve 24/7 or should be required to. Who is going to spend the time and investment to maintain a citadel if some solo player can d**k with it so easily? Especially in WH space?


My concern for this has tempered since the blog posting but it is still a concern. It isn't 24/7, but it will be X hours every Y days where a structure needs to be babysat. It is not ideal and expressly limits individuals and smaller corporations who the Medium structures specifically are aimed at per the original blog.