Player Features and Ideas Discussion

This is a game. What is good for an economy is not necessarily what is good for a game.

So you want to tell us you don't require a ship to fly around?

And after this thread you still don't understand why people prefer to use some systems and try to avoid others? Do you believe low sec miners like crowded systems? Do you run explorations in null sec in a system with 20 neutrals in local?

A carrier can defend itself. A freighter in HS uses it's tank and Concord for defense. In LS/NS there is no Concord so the only way for a JF to survive is to jump from station to station and dock immediately. And you want to remove the only defense mechanism this ship class has and believe that in such a case people would still spend 10 billion isk to learn how to fly one, buy it and loose it within a short period?

Why don't you explain to me where isk comes from, then. Assuming you know so much, you should be able to prove that isk can be generated from player trading without missions, NPC buy orders for loot, and rats.

What people tend to do when they need resupply is to fly to a hub themselves, either on a main or alt, to supply themselves.

You claim that a trader giving up putting goods into a market has no influence on PvP, then say it does because people need to resupply their ships. Consistency, please.

No, I didn't quote BI web pages. I provided a link. The effects of market saturation are well established. The effect of getting goods to a market at no risk, in a game where there is little population growth, should also be an easy read.

Consider that there's an average of 4 alts per person in a hypothetical scenario. Most people use those alts as slave labor. They are not really consumers of the market, although they may impact the market through trade. No one plays 4 alts to give them equal time and assets + liquid capital. They further the decrease of value of goods on market, because they have little demand for goods, while being a supplier of goods. Say 30,000 players are the norm, there's ~190,000 individuals in game, but 160,000 of them are producing value while not really taking value out of the system.

Add onto that the ease of JFing stuff into a station, and you have high market saturation compared to the rate at which thing go boom. That is bad for economy because, as you said, industrialites will "give up". Either they'll stop playing Eve or they'll start pvping, or perhaps there's a third option. Perhaps they keep producing battlecruisers at a true loss to themselves.

You should join the manufacturing channel sometime and ask in chat if battlecruisers make good money.

As far as calculating costs, I'm aware that most people are actually quite bad at this, which is why you don't often see successful lowsec trade hubs with the markup that they should generally be set at, given hazard rates for losses, providing a service for ease of access, transport costs, etc.

Since you love Business Insider, here's another:

http://www.businessinsider.com/3-powerful-pricing-strategies-businesses-should-always-consider-2013-10

Miners who consider their time spent hauling ore to market themselves, or who consider their ore "free", are the most potent example of people breaking the rules of profits. They literally put themselves out of business, or into slave wages, through lack of foresight. Perhaps they don't really care much and mining in Eve is just some side entertainment they aren't "serious" about, however, their effect on economy is to depreciate the value of spaceships as well, because of the bloated inventory made by industrialists, who then also feel pressured to compete and do the same thing; overproduce and underprice.


The market can't exist without PvP or massive losses in PvE, which are largely mitigated by how simple PvE is. ISK can't exist in the economy without NPC buy orders, rat bounties, and mission payouts. That's just how things are.

You still miss the point of this thread. We are not talking about isk faucets and isk sinks, we are talking about the need to move goods around in EVE and the effects of this proposed change.

And here the situation is clear. You need the possibility to move high volumes to keep the economy running.

Moving high volume goods between low/nullsec and Highsec and within lowsec and nullsec can only be done in a more or less safe way using Jump freighters and their only defense is this cyno/docking game which should be removed according to the OP.

Using a JF in a different way (e.g. jumping into a system without station or by using a cyno outside a docking range) is the best way to loose such a ship within a short period. It can only be done in quiet areas when no one else is around and you still find a lot of kills happening in such systems.

What you all forget is that JF haul goods which end on the market and a market can only exist if people are around. As a result a JF pilot must jump and dock in crowded/busy systems, he can't avoid it. It's simply a fundamental fact that trading hubs are always crowded.

You could propose a 2h lifetime on mobile warp bubbles or suggest delayed local, depending on just how suicidal you feel.

*not having minmatar T2 components in amarr space* is considered a cut into self-sufficiency, and not being able to reliably solo JF without any preparation besides logging toons will make prices explode *to ten times their current values*.

I'd say the barrier to desperation moves is a thin one.

Let me explain some game mechanism because it seems you never have used a capital.

• A capital ship always is a huge investment and you really don't want to loose it.
• A capital kill is the wet dream of every pvp player. Flying a capital means you are automatically the primary target for everyone.
• A capital ship (without webbing tricks) needs between 9 (with a MWD trick) and over 30 seconds to enter warp after entering a system through a gate or a cyno.
• A capital requires twice the amount of time (or even more) when undocking from a station to enter warp.
• A capital moves around with 70-90 m/sec which gives you an impression how long it takes to move it if you land outside a safe spot or the docking range
• Capitals can be bumped making their time to warp or fly back into safety even longer.
• A single point is enough to stop a JF from entering warp or jumping to a cyno because a JF cannot fit warp core stabs.
• Locking a huge target like a capital is done within seconds, even when you also fly a capital.
• A JF has a huge buffer tank to withstand attacks until the ship can be docked. It is required so you can dock again after you found the area around the station crowded and/or bubbled.
• Because of no warp core stabs and low speed you don't use kick off stations as long as there is no one outside protecting you.
• There are kills where a JF was alphaed by a titan. I don't know how long a titan requires to lock a capital like a JF but it shouldn't take too long. Just don't care for a second and you have problems. Even a JF doesn't survive a DD.
• Probing down a capital requires a single run with combat probes. With 8 AU range you get a 100% lock signal. A probing run takes less than 6 seconds and can only be detected on d-scan. If you see probes in the air but haven't started aligning then good luck.
• A tackler can cross a system and lock you in under 13 seconds.
• If you rat in a carrier you have less than 10 seconds to collect your drones, align to a safe spot and enter warp when a neut enters the system. If you don't have a MWD fitted in such a case you are lost. And in case the other guy is using probes he can chase you through the system until you run out of safe spots or find a cyno to jump to.
• A carrier can fit a cloak and wait until a roaming gang has left the system.
• A JF can't fit a cloak and/or MWD - you can't hide, you can't run.
• If you try to bump off a spot with a JF to avoid bubbles you are lost. Even with a nomad set, lvl 5 skills and three inertial stabs in low you need 16 seconds to enter warp. Probing and tackling takes less time.
• Cynos can be warped at without probing and stay online for 10 minutes except you trigger the self destruct mechanism of the alt.
• Lighting a cyno in a crowded system typically results in visitors appearing on grid within 20 seconds, sometimes even less time.
• If you are not visited and shot then it's only because they assume the precious target has already docked. If we change this mechanism you will have visitors each time you light one.
• Jumping & docking takes 10 seconds (5 seconds for the jump, 5 sec cool down timer until you can dock) which leaves you 10 secs or less safety buffer between lighting the cyno and docking again.
• The more mass you have the more you enter a warp bubble until your ship stops. A capital has a huge mass and is slow as hell, you know what a bubble means.
• If you have been unlucky and jumped into a system and you are chased around you can't jump out again because you don't have enough cap. Jump fatigue also makes another jump impossible for the next 2 minutes or even longer - enough time to find and pin you.
• If your cyno alt is shot while you jump you land in a random place in the target system. Never had this situation, don't want to try it.
• If you calculate the spot in a wrong way you bump of the station wall and die.
• If you believe every pilot knows how to create a 100% safe cyno spot you are wrong. I have seen horrible things, even done by Black Frog pilots.

With these restrictions already in place do you believe I would continue moving goods into nullsec trading hubs where 20-200 pilots are in local while I risk a loss of 10 billion or more isk? Even without this change here it sometimes takes me 2-3 hours until I find a time slice long enough to move a cyno alt in place and jump and I had days where I waited for hours without being able to jump at all.

9 out of 10 null systems w/ 20 or more guys in them all dockthefuckup when I enter the system. Initiall for the first few years I thought my uber pvp reputation had them cowering in their stations at the mere sight of my name in local. As the years have passed and I've grown wiser I have come to understand that they pretty much dock up when any neutral enters system.

So, would I run any type of site in a null system w/ 20 null bears in it? I do it whenever it pleases me. Just as a cloaked ship causes no pain, a docked corp also causes no pain. The issue with a null system like that is figuring out which can opener if any will get them out of the can they are hiding in.


In general. Null has to get over itself. By no means is anything going on in null pivital to the game. Any facet out there that gets disturbed or outright wrecked will be but a ripple on the pond.

I can support this with a few examples:
warp to zero
speed nerf
jump fatigue

All of these we game breakers. So please when some dude comes on here spouting the end of eve because null is needed - look at his corp tag, giggle and move on. What they are really lamenting is this or that proposed change might possibly upset their isk faucet and it is oh so bothersome for them to adapt.

TL/DR: Those sitting on their imagined thrones will lie, cheat and spread tales of epic gloom and doom to maintain their own personal comfy way of playing the game.

+1 to adding risk to JF traffic.

Well since I proposed the limitation for Empire space...