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structure blog out

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calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
#41 - 2015-05-12 22:30:06 UTC  |  Edited by: calaretu
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Well here is the main question. Assuming that these things will be able to defend themselves vs a troll ceptor....

Do we need the timezone protection mechanic for w space? This isn't a issue of space or use as wspace isn't sov.

I understand the need for it in nullsec. I am not sold of the need for it in wspace. It would be a bit more brutal and more timezone coverage would be needed. But knowing the structures can put up at least some defense, i wonder if its needed.

I'm going to hold off on any speculative judgement atm.


Imo I hope they keep it and according to the quote earlier it will naturally be 6-8 hours or so. I think the ability to deliberatly attack out of the defenders tz (aswell as time the rf timer to do the same) is bad gameplay

~Bringer of happiness

http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#42 - 2015-05-12 23:04:16 UTC
calaretu wrote:
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Well here is the main question. Assuming that these things will be able to defend themselves vs a troll ceptor....

Do we need the timezone protection mechanic for w space? This isn't a issue of space or use as wspace isn't sov.

I understand the need for it in nullsec. I am not sold of the need for it in wspace. It would be a bit more brutal and more timezone coverage would be needed. But knowing the structures can put up at least some defense, i wonder if its needed.

I'm going to hold off on any speculative judgement atm.


Imo I hope they keep it and according to the quote earlier it will naturally be 6-8 hours or so. I think the ability to deliberatly attack out of the defenders tz (aswell as time the rf timer to do the same) is bad gameplay


If they follow so, yea would probably be ok. Long as it doesn't reduce down to some 2 hour window (longer timespans), should be ok (we don't get the upgrades that null does, etc etc).

We'd definitely need some more detailed mechanic on how the structures Actually function when a person moores/docks/whatever with it. Also how to tell who's home and who is not.

Yaay!!!!
Alundil
Rolled Out
#43 - 2015-05-13 00:42:29 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:


We'd definitely need some more detailed mechanic on how the structures Actually function when a person moores/docks/whatever with it. Also how to tell who's home and who is not.

This is one of the more important aspects of this change. This and what happens to loot in wspace when one of the new structures is destroyed.

I'm right behind you
Humang
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#44 - 2015-05-13 01:36:53 UTC
corbexx wrote:
Some concerns i have.

the fact you can anchor them anywhere.

docking/link games

Since they could be anywhere how will you find them?

Since your 1st and 3rd point are on the same thing, I'll skip to the 2nd.

For docking games, could something like WH polarization timers be brought in?
  • Have a rule tied to the invulnerability link that will replace POS force-fields where it can only be applied/removed a set number of times
  • Applies a cool-down stopping you from being invulnerable/docking for a small period?
  • Might need to be tied to the ship, not the player.

    • Now, for structure being anchorable anywhere:
  • It would stop corps from being able to lock out a system simply by having a small poss offline at every moon.
  • Would require that a corp/alliance actually put effort into stopping an attacker from setting up a staging point.

    • Being able to find them:
  • Not sure about having a beacon to warp to in the overview or in the system scanner (like anoms) at all times
  • Maybe only have the beacon active during the structures reinforcement periods?
  • Maybe have a structure fitting like D-scan inhibitors that can mask the beacon, but are really easy to scan with probes and show up on d-scan themselves?

    • But all up I'm looking forward to it all, and share the same concerns about "will we be able to see how many people are docked?"

    AFK cloaking thread Summary - Provided by Paikis Good Post Etiquette - Provided by CCP Grayscale
    Adriana Nolen
    Sama Guild
    #45 - 2015-05-13 03:17:41 UTC
    CCP is problably going to say **** it & leave old pos in w-space just cause.
    Winthorp
    #46 - 2015-05-13 04:59:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
    We need to be able to see who is docked/moored on dscan with ship type and then when on grid have the same pilot info we have now.

    In reverse the same intel needs to be available to those that are docked/moored, they should still have the same dscan functionality they have now.

    The why of this is for several reasons but mostly if you lack this information in both sides docked or a visitor then you will think empty system and no interations between both of those parties will occur.



    I also have concerns about the size of this docking/mooring area of safety. If this area of safety is less then the current size of a pos force field it will lead to **** caging this area of effect with you pos guns tanked i feel with a small sized fleet at your door you could be trapped in pretty easilly. If it is a large area of affect this will be harder to achieve.


    People will inevitably try to game an ill thought out system like this so things like this need to be thought about now.

    I do look forward to having my pos at the sun though.
    GizzyBoy
    I N E X T R E M I S
    Tactical Narcotics Team
    #47 - 2015-05-13 05:42:49 UTC
    AUTZ not looking forward to being stuck on over watch duties pretty much there entire game time.

    I notice there's industry and military values that can change windows and things, we dont have these in wspace, how will this be calculated for w space?

    will people now be forced to do home sites in order to get some kind of index value or is there some other method?

    the new structures are interesting, but is probably going to lead to people having bow head alts with all there ships inside, and always logging off in capitals, and minimising asset risk by basicly not having much of anything in there wh.

    docking would be nice because that at least fixes assembling t3's.
    some basic station services like repairs would also be nice + market or what ever.(probably doubtful)

    not to fused about the dscan thing, but I do like the pos bubble to give you some room to load grid/space safetly so you dont get blapped by 100 tornado's or something.

    also loading grid etc is always an issue for az/nz because of server lag.
    GizzyBoy
    I N E X T R E M I S
    Tactical Narcotics Team
    #48 - 2015-05-13 06:01:27 UTC
    Serendipity Lost wrote:
    corbexx wrote:
    Serendipity Lost wrote:
    Where does my loot magically go when my station thingy gets destroyed? That's null I really want to know.

    Corbexx - do you want totally destructible structures or magic loot storage? We really need to know where you stand on this.



    ideally i'd want totally destroyable one



    You want them all to be destructable or you want one of them to be destructable?

    When they get destroyed do you want loots or do you want space magic for asset protection?



    Because this is the way forward for every one in the game, what ever option that's picked will have to accommodate HS, LS, NPC null and Null sec proper as well as WH space.

    So believe it or not regardless of how we feel hes going to have to co ordinate with all the other people, In the rest of space.

    Null players or even LS / HS corps wardeccing and headshoting Hostiles structures with 1000 man blobs (maybe more when brain in a box kicks in) while fun for the aggressor in the short term, wont be conducive to either in game subs or overall content in the long term because you just killed all there caps/ships they have nothing to shoot you with any more so back to lvl4's in hs for them and back to ship spinning for you.

    These are some of the things that will have to be balanced out for all areas of space. They could possibly make special conditions for wspace and structures, I dont want that tho because the games already got enough complexity to worry about than to be running around making special use cases and adding further complexity.
    Rhavas
    Noble Sentiments
    Second Empire.
    #49 - 2015-05-13 06:20:46 UTC
    Winthorp wrote:
    We need to be able to see who is docked/moored on dscan with ship type and then when on grid have the same pilot info we have now.

    In reverse the same intel needs to be available to those that are docked/moored, they should still have the same dscan functionality they have now.

    The why of this is for several reasons but mostly if you lack this information in both sides docked or a visitor then you will think empty system and no interations between both of those parties will occur.


    This is definitely the primary problem with the proposed approach. With no Local (and none wanted, thank you) the mechanisms that we currently have are great. They reward effort but do not require probing or reveal.

    Occam's razor solution: No docking in W-space, only mooring (occupied ships) and storage (unoccupied ships) and all moored ships show up on d-scan.

    Yes, other solutions like structure scans would work but it needs to be doable cloaked, which currently nothing else is.

    I also agree with those who want structures moon-locked, not for defensive purposes but for offensive ones. Defense of you having to actually find it is sufficient - having it on permascan like an Anom is too easy IMO. At least on moons you have to hunt the right moon but can still do so easily and stealthily. It provides both attacker and defender with benefits.

    The proposed model is all for the defender, hiding away in some deadspace pocket.

    With this model, the attacker has to spend a crazy long time hunting and pecking until they find something. After about the third system of that the scout is going to say "F* this" and go back to their home system and do something else. People need to be able to be found, and without giving away your presence every time.

    But hey, as long as it works for the sov null guys, right?

    Author of Interstellar Privateer Shattered Planets, Wormholes and Game Commentary
    calaretu
    Honestly We didnt know
    #50 - 2015-05-13 06:25:05 UTC
    CCP Nullarbor wrote:
    thebringer wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Lyron-Baktos wrote:
    When do we get some news on these new structures and how or if they will interact in wormhole space?


    We want most of those structures to be available in W-space, but with some special restrictions if need be.


    Bringing full docking into wh space will change the place entirely, one of the reasons to live there is to avoid dumb docking games and how intel gathering is important (finding poses, seeing what in them players/ships/structures).

    I would rather we stay with the current pos system (at least for wormholes) than this stupid capture the flag rubbish and no loot drops from structures.

    But you will do it anyway because who cares about wormholers...

    Just please dont break it too badly.


    We're considering letting you scan who is docked inside these structures.

    Also yes docking games suck, so do force field games. We're accepting input on how we can setup the docking / invuln link to improve this, for all of space not just WH.
    source

    ~Bringer of happiness

    http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
    Shilalasar
    Dead Sky Inc.
    #51 - 2015-05-13 07:24:29 UTC
    Adriana Nolen wrote:
    CCP is problably going to say **** it & leave old pos in w-space just cause.


    At some point POS will go the way of the dodo just because of the amount of problems and bugs the POScode produces.


    Here are the important questions I came up with after reading:

    Shilalasar wrote:
    Thanks for putting devblogs about this important issue out long before making final designdecisions.
    Some questions I came up with:

    1.Will the structures have a predefined undock? Will you be able to bump ships within the invullinked area? What ranges are you plaining for the linked areas? 2,5 like docking or 20 like a FF? Will it work like the invultimer upon undocking so the player can decide when to break it or will you be autolinked if within range like a FF now?

    2.Unless you are able to bring capitals (c1-4 or highsec, where most of the small corps live) or completely stupid numbers the timeinvestement to RF a well defended (resi-,****- or deathstar) is 2-5 hours. This is more to stop people from even thinking about it than actual defense.
    Will the entosistime be along the same numbers, the nullnumbers so far suggest no.
    The current POSdefenses and mechanics are hugely imbalanced towrds the defender in smaller conflics. But this is also the reason why smaller groups, especially in lowend WHs, can survive and have fun without getting facerolled just because they are there (like in sov-nullsec).

    3.T2 entosis has 250 km range so structureweapons and ewar have to have a range higher than that to be of any use. That just sounds wrong. I could also entosis from the undock of next structure over.

    4.Placing them everywhere would include inside of static DED pockets.

    5.What will be the cynorestrictions near structures? None like stations or far away like a POS?

    6.If you don´t limit them to number of moons how do you plan on keeping them on a handable level? I can see 200+ of those strucs in jita just because we can. And there is no UI that works well on those numbers. Most Whs of larger corps have already 50+ towers in system.

    7.Scanning the structures equals uncloaking, getting spotted and being blabbed by structureguns. Are scanners that work while cloaked a possibility?

    8.Drones as weapons, I do not like. Not just because I hate the current drones everywhere meta but because I think a station should not launch some small throwaway drones to defend but starships.

    9.Will the citadels have captain´s quarters?



    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5741499#post5741499

    Kynric
    Sky Fighters
    Rote Kapelle
    #52 - 2015-05-13 16:37:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kynric
    Perhaps instead of evaluating them relative to how they perform in wormhole evictions we should look at them in terms of what produces more ships moving in space. Ships moving in space is content every day while evictions are rare and generally not very fun events. With that standard it seems like there will be more ships in space with this plan. The asset protection feature will both make for ships shuffling about picking up goods and give a measure of perceived safety that might help grow the population in our neighborhood. For me at least it would also save me the 20 minutes at the end of my night when I log in the carrier and orca alts and scoop every last valuable/ship into them followed by a similar 20 minutes at the start of my night when they unload the goods. Skipping that would give me more time to fly in space which is content for all compared to the logged off alts that are content for nobody. The logoff trick was neccessary for both asset protection as if the tower were reinforced the CHA would be sealed and to assure that neccessary siege items are still accessible in the event of a suprise siege. The thought of losing those daily tasks is a happy one. I am pretty happy with the proposed change as it will likely result in more time in space for me and more other ships moving about as well.

    We also stand to get a ton of quality of life improvements. Ships safe from theft, ability to assemble t3s, ability to repackage and repair, perhaps the ability to have a small market within the corp, no more requests to magement to retrieve this or that which was dropped in the wrong tab, in time perhaps the ability to manage your own silo farms instead of that too being a management task, less ti worry about when recruiting and easier to find a spot for new pilots. There is a lot to potentially get excited over.
    Oriki Ituin
    Antex Solutions
    #53 - 2015-05-13 20:43:51 UTC
    I'd quite like to see a 'ransom' feature built into the new structures. Something along the following lines:

    1) Corporation that reinforces a structure [at both Reinforced 1 and Reinforced 2] can apply a ransom to the structure.
    2) Owning corporation can pay the ransom, which returns the structure to online.
    3) The ransom transaction would be handled by game code.

    If the new structures can be scanned, then both corporations will know a suitable ransom value.

    However, if you still want to kill the structure for revenge, eviction etc there would be no difference to what we know so far.
    slam34
    Transtar Services
    #54 - 2015-05-13 21:31:40 UTC
    But let's get back to this gem:

    "We are also thinking of having them visible and directly warpable from the on-board scanner to preserve Wormhole space gameplay.

    How in holy hell does that "preserve Wormhole Space Gameplay" ?

    High sec: That's the tutorial. Null Sec is the actual game. Wormholes? Even CCP isn't sure.
    Forestwalker
    POS Party
    Ember Sands
    #55 - 2015-05-14 16:36:18 UTC
    I think the coding for warping to any structure in wh space if added to probe scanner is only warpable by the corp that deployed it every other corp alliance what have you should have to combat scan it out.
    Ilaister
    Binary Aesthetics
    #56 - 2015-05-14 17:47:22 UTC
    slam34 wrote:
    But let's get back to this gem:

    "We are also thinking of having them visible and directly warpable from the on-board scanner to preserve Wormhole space gameplay.

    How in holy hell does that "preserve Wormhole Space Gameplay" ?


    Asked and answered previously, but a question for you that might answer your own.

    Where do you currently point your dscan to find a POS?
    Iyokus Patrouette
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #57 - 2015-05-15 04:38:45 UTC
    so reading is pretty hard and i usually only forum browse while i am at work and my attention is split.

    so i have one very important question, that need a simple answer. (don't wall of text me bro)

    Will any of these changes make it easier to kick out those inactive tards who log in once a week to farm and otherwise provide 0 Content?

    ---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----

    Winthorp
    #58 - 2015-05-15 05:53:08 UTC
    Iyokus Patrouette wrote:
    so reading is pretty hard and i usually only forum browse while i am at work and my attention is split.

    so i have one very important question, that need a simple answer. (don't wall of text me bro)

    Will any of these changes make it easier to kick out those inactive tards who log in once a week to farm and otherwise provide 0 Content?


    Honestly no i think it will be harder to evict them.
    Aivo Dresden
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #59 - 2015-05-15 06:51:04 UTC
    Sorry if I missed this in the blog, how will these be limited in numbers? How many can be dropped in one wormhole / system. If these can be put anywhere, what's there to prevent people from having like dozens in 1 system?
    Forestwalker
    POS Party
    Ember Sands
    #60 - 2015-05-15 17:07:38 UTC
    I think its a good idea to know how many can be deployed in wh systems thanks for your time.