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Punisher or Tormentor for FW plexes?
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The Barrister
Barrister's Ball
#1 - 2015-05-12 17:24:06 UTC
Greetings!

I want to fly an Amarr frigate for firmware plexes and am having trouble figuring out if a tormentor or punisher would be the better ship. Keep in mind that I'm new/low skilled so exotic fits that rely on a bunch of level 5 skills might be good long-term goals, but I'm more interested in something I can fly now. I'll be solo without any boosts/links if that changes the equation. I really want to stick with Amarr ships for now, so "fly another race" isn't what I'm looking for here, even if it would be the better option.

I want to fight at in your face/bad breath distance and plan to sit on the beacon and grab whatever decides to come in and play. I'm really not interested in trying to kite.

I like the punisher's tank, but after searching the forums it seems like the 2 mid slots really hurt the ship's viability for solo since you can't fit scram/web/prop. It seems to me that I could probably make do with just scram and web though since I will be sitting at the warp in and should be able to get webs on anything that comes in. Sure, they may burn away from me but isn't that where the ability to switch from short range to long range ammo crystals comes into play? Will I not be able to do enough damage to kill them before they get far enough away to escape? I'm guessing I'm wrong since so many people knock the ship for its two mid slots - but maybe it's not as much of a disadvantage in this scenario where I'm planning to start all my fights from inside a FW plex.)

As for the tormentor, it sacrifices some tank but gains the 3rd mid slot which seems like a plus overall. (Even though my natural inclination is that more tank is better.) But since it has room for a couple drones it looks like I would need good drone skills to fully take advantage of it, which doesn't matter long term but matters a great deal right now. Every skill point I have to put in drones is a point that isn't getting put into guns.

Long-term I would like to move up to faction/pirate frigs or maybe tactical destroyers, but figure I should probably start off with cheaper ships since I'm certain to have a bunch of them shot out from under me while I learn. Any thoughts or advice?

Khorvek
Colear Mining Retrieval and Distributing
#2 - 2015-05-12 22:47:30 UTC
Tormentor because frigates have very limited slot layouts, and punisher is the worst at 2 mids. Really awful. Stay away from punisher. I have no idea why I'm able to sell them at all.

People talk about how eve is better than WoW. I still get one shotted undocking in a frigate if there's a WT thrasher outside. It looks eerily similar to getting one shotted in WoW battlegrounds by a x9 level player when you're x1-4 levels.
Reynas Arthie
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-05-13 00:23:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Reynas Arthie
Tormentor is Amarr's most versatile combat frig nowadays the 3 slot mid really help to fit fit the infamous web/scram/prop mod etc etc and the drones add a bit of extra flexibility as well.

The punisher however shouldn't be written off. It is a solid ship with great tank and despite what most forum warriors think it is an effective combat frig. Fit it with small beam lasers and a web/Afterburner in the mids (after all if you are defend a plex people will come to you to fight) Sure you can't stop them warping away but tbh if they do then you have won anyways. With beams (And i definitely recommend you get T2 lasers asap) and the web it means you do have range control to scram kite and if a kiter comes in to your plex swap to long range ammo and you can usually kill them before they realise how much damage you are actually putting out.

Out of the two I'd probably favour beam tormentor but I love flying them both and the executioner as well. Just don't listen to all the naysayers about the punisher. Get some solid skills and give it a whirl you might be pleasantly surprised Twisted

Edit PS: Fly them all as they pretty much use the same skills for all three T1 amarr frigs (add drone skills if you prefer tormentor) and see which takes your fancy.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2015-05-13 02:43:36 UTC
Executioner.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2015-05-13 02:49:27 UTC
Solo or semi-solo: Tormentor. It has more flexibility and "range control."

For gangs and fleets: Punisher. It is beefy, deals a decent amount of damage, and its weaknesses are compensated for with the help of others.

How did you Veterans start?
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#6 - 2015-05-13 04:33:06 UTC
What Shah said. However unless it's a big fleet with logi and dedicated tackle, I'd still go with the Tormentor, 2 midslots is just very limiting on frigates.
Arla Sarain
#7 - 2015-05-13 16:54:00 UTC
Whatever you pick, use beams.
Reynas Arthie
Doomheim
#8 - 2015-05-13 22:00:49 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Whatever you pick, use beams.


^^ This this and more of this!

TBH there is no real reason to use pulses outside of very specific role fits now. Beams just are crazy! I love my tormentor (always did after the initial re-balances) but when you can get a solid active tank, control range and comfortably put out over 200dps to the edge of scram range in a T1 frig it's almost OP!
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2015-05-13 23:37:09 UTC
Executioner > Tormentor
Reynas Arthie
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-05-14 01:47:12 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Executioner > Tormentor


Not disagreeing as I love the executioner....

However....

Apart from fast tackle/chaser roles with good skills the Tormentor can just out perform the executioner. More DPS, same ranges, more tank and possibly more flexibility.

The executioner is much quicker to train into to decent levels and is excellent for the fast tackle roles (it is a fast attack frig after all Twisted).

BUT


I do have to admit it is by far much better looking then the golden super shrimp!
The Barrister
Barrister's Ball
#11 - 2015-05-14 02:15:52 UTC
Thanks for all the replies. I guess I'll go with the tormentor for plexing and maybe have a punisher or two fitted up just in case I come across an opportunity to join a fleet.

And thanks for the advice to use beams. I was leaning that way from my reading but wasn't sure if it was the best choice. Complicated game, this Eve.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-05-14 15:32:41 UTC
The Executioner is superior for the following reasons

1. It is much faster and more agile. Combine this with it's smaller size, and it is much harder to hit and to catch. With a MWD fit you can do 3,500 m/s right off the bat, which is great for flying around the battlefield and catching kiting ships. With an Afterburner you're looking at over 1,300 m/s which is great for controlling scram range fights.

2. It uses only one weapon system. Lasers. This means you have less to train for and less to think about during fights. Against a ship like the Tormentor, who uses drones for a significant amount of his damage, you can use your lasers to kill all of his drones, and use your speed to stay out of harms way while you kill them. Once his drones are dead, the fight is yours. And even if it isn't, you can still run away and live to fight another day.

3. The utility high slot enables the option of fitting a nos or neut. With the Executioner's role bonus, and a with a nos equipped, you can keep your tackle running against pretty much anything, even if they have a medium neut.

It's better than the Tormentor in basically every aspect of the game. Even in a pure combat role, the Executioner is better. But hey, the Tormentor is good too. I just think the Executioner is way way better.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#13 - 2015-05-14 15:53:32 UTC
Start with an executioner because you can train for it faster, and practice scram kiting with scorch.

Then train your beams and drones and try the tormentor.

Don't do a punisher for solo FW plexes.

JUSTK is recruiting
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2015-05-14 16:04:37 UTC
Torm>exe by a lot. (all frigates>punisher)
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-05-14 18:31:40 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Torm>exe by a lot. (all frigates>punisher)

well I'll just go **** myself then
Reynas Arthie
Doomheim
#16 - 2015-05-14 21:02:20 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
The Executioner is superior for the following reasons

1. It is much faster and more agile. Combine this with it's smaller size, and it is much harder to hit and to catch. With a MWD fit you can do 3,500 m/s right off the bat, which is great for flying around the battlefield and catching kiting ships. With an Afterburner you're looking at over 1,300 m/s which is great for controlling scram range fights.

2. It uses only one weapon system. Lasers. This means you have less to train for and less to think about during fights. Against a ship like the Tormentor, who uses drones for a significant amount of his damage, you can use your lasers to kill all of his drones, and use your speed to stay out of harms way while you kill them. Once his drones are dead, the fight is yours. And even if it isn't, you can still run away and live to fight another day.

3. The utility high slot enables the option of fitting a nos or neut. With the Executioner's role bonus, and a with a nos equipped, you can keep your tackle running against pretty much anything, even if they have a medium neut.

It's better than the Tormentor in basically every aspect of the game. Even in a pure combat role, the Executioner is better. But hey, the Tormentor is good too. I just think the Executioner is way way better.



I agree with points 1 and 3 a lot. The speed, agility and utility high are just so setup for it's intended role.

However in a straight up fight the torm just beats the executioner hands down. The only thing a standard scram kite exe can do against a torm is run away. And even that isn't guaranteed as the torm puts out just so much more damage. 175dps with guns alone. 208dps total with drones as well.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2015-05-14 21:38:08 UTC
Man, I'll take my executioner against a tormentor any day

With the guns alone the executioner and tormentor have equal damage. I'll just kill his drones and then use my speed to control the fight. Even if he wins I will escape.

Tormentor has the extra low slot so sure, he can have a better tank, or better damage. But it doesn't make up for the speed of the executioner.
Reynas Arthie
Doomheim
#18 - 2015-05-15 00:01:18 UTC
Ares Desideratus wrote:
Man, I'll take my executioner against a tormentor any day

With the guns alone the executioner and tormentor have equal damage. I'll just kill his drones and then use my speed to control the fight. Even if he wins I will escape.

Tormentor has the extra low slot so sure, he can have a better tank, or better damage. But it doesn't make up for the speed of the executioner.


Ok I'll play :)

Same type of fit?

Torm = Exe Damage. yes (assuming you kill his drones?)

Ok to apply that damage effectively you are mitigating your speed/agility advantage. And the torm will have a better tank if damage is equal. The 'best' case for the exe is to run away = Torm wins.

Now this is where the exe has a trump card. Utility high. Fit with a neut you can get in close (utilise higher speed/agilty) and get under his guns while taking out the drones and applying cap pressure to torm. Once drones are down and torm is really low on cap then you can get into a straight damage race where you start with a cap advantage.


Like i said before. In a straight up fight I'd bet on the Torm. But I fly them all and always try to stop it from being a straight up fight.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2015-05-15 02:00:30 UTC
1. executioner controls the fight and can escape from a tormentor if he has to anyway

2. executioner is undeniably sexier

either way you slice it, the executioner wins, so blow me

But, Wolf did say I was wrong. That's all the proof you need
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2015-05-15 12:10:11 UTC
Both are great i just think the torm is a bit better ("by a lot" was a bit exaggerated) as it has better on field stayability although the exe has the meta going for it. And the torm has them drones so it deals 30-40dps more.

The exes speed i think isnt enough to make up for 2 drones and the fitting room and the little bit more tank, both are great with pulse and amazing with beams (dem 200+dps at 8km).
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