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Why does everyone (sort of) want to making mining easier?
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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#141 - 2011-12-27 20:27:03 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

My opinion is that to gank a hulk should cost 100M+ to the attacking party plus the usual standings loss. Increasing hull increases the cost to gank a ship in time. That is called balance. Covoters obviously cost far less so the hull increase is far less.

I am also pro moving roids to grav sites. That encourages grouping for use of scanner ships.


I have proposed the "free to GANK in High, but for 200,000,000 ISK per ganked ship" idea in another thread.

'Cost To Gank' and 'Scannable only Roids and Ice' seems to be the way to go.........

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#142 - 2011-12-27 20:28:37 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:

My opinion is that to gank a hulk should cost 100M+ to the attacking party plus the usual standings loss. Increasing hull increases the cost to gank a ship in time. That is called balance. Covoters obviously cost far less so the hull increase is far less.

I am also pro moving roids to grav sites. That encourages grouping for use of scanner ships.


I have proposed the "free to GANK in High, but for 200,000,000 ISK per ganked ship" idea in another thread.

'Cost To Gank' and 'Scannable only Roids and Ice' seems to be the way to go.........


Sweet, my Gank alt will have a massive negative wallet balance to go with his -10 sec status. Roll

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Endeavour Starfleet
#143 - 2011-12-27 20:30:28 UTC
We don't need core gameplay changes we don't need big changes at all.

Seriously folks. Hull HP boost. And its DONE. What is so hard to understand about that?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#144 - 2011-12-27 20:34:24 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
We don't need core gameplay changes we don't need big changes at all.

Seriously folks. Hull HP boost. And its DONE. What is so hard to understand about that?


Nope. Hull HP boost just makes it slightly more expensive to gank hulks. The Insurance nerf already did that, no need to do it again until well after the dust settles on casual ganking with regards to said insurance nerf.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#145 - 2011-12-27 20:39:51 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
We don't need core gameplay changes we don't need big changes at all.

Seriously folks. Hull HP boost. And its DONE. What is so hard to understand about that?


Won't. Stop. Ganks.

It doesn't matter what you do to mining ships, it doesn't matter what you do to miners. People don't like you.
I don't know why people don't like miners or mining, aside from it being painstakingly dull, boring and a waste of
time; people just don't like you.

Gankers gonna gank. Plain and simple, and regardless as to how many ships they lose, how much sec status they lose,
or how much isk they throwaway- as soon as you even acknowledge that it happened, they win. The first evemail, the
first comment, the first badpost on these forums, the gankers have won. All your doing is pouring kerosene in an already
lit furnace.

With the new battlecruisers, CCP just made ganking cost about 60m; since the 'concorded no insurance payouts'
can be worked around (not that they really care anyway) they have practically encouraged the community to go on a gank-spree.

Stop your crying, winter is coming.
Endeavour Starfleet
#146 - 2011-12-27 20:45:21 UTC
The tier 3 bcs do encourage ganking but why even use them when cheapo destroyers can gank a hulk these days?

No it will not stop ganking. But it will stop the slew of easy ganks.

You want to spend 100M to fit a Tornado and gank a hulk have at it! Yet it should cost atleast 100M to get a hulk.

Hull HP is where it is at.

You boost only the survivability of the craft in short term bad situations such as a gank. Try to use that hull HP to tank PVE and the tears will be delightful.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#147 - 2011-12-27 20:45:24 UTC
Xolve wrote:


Won't. Stop. Ganks.

It doesn't matter what you do to mining ships, it doesn't matter what you do to miners. People don't like you.
I don't know why people don't like miners or mining, aside from it being painstakingly dull, boring and a waste of
time; people just don't like you.



Sorry, but the facts of life are: someone must mine to make your ships.

We no mine......we make-y no shippies.......you no fly-eeeee.

Then no game-ey.


F--KIN' THINK ! Oh, wait......................

Good-bye.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Twylla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2011-12-27 20:50:09 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Xolve wrote:


Won't. Stop. Ganks.

It doesn't matter what you do to mining ships, it doesn't matter what you do to miners. People don't like you.
I don't know why people don't like miners or mining, aside from it being painstakingly dull, boring and a waste of
time; people just don't like you.



Sorry, but the facts of life are: someone must mine to make your ships.

We no mine......we make-y no shippies.......you no fly-eeeee.

Then no game-ey.


F--KIN' THINK ! Oh, wait......................

Good-bye.


Negative. Mineral exports from nullsec would counterbalance a theoretical zeroing of highsec mining. Manufacturers would still manufacture, but you would likely see Rifters hit 1-2 million before things evened out.

~Weapons R&D technician, arms manufacturer, weapons dealer, wormhole project manager, nulsec fleet pilot, armored warfare command/mindlink specialist, thanatos pilot, alliance executor, now retired~

I've done everything. NOW GET OFF MY LAWN!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#149 - 2011-12-27 20:51:59 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Xolve wrote:


Won't. Stop. Ganks.

It doesn't matter what you do to mining ships, it doesn't matter what you do to miners. People don't like you.
I don't know why people don't like miners or mining, aside from it being painstakingly dull, boring and a waste of
time; people just don't like you.



Sorry, but the facts of life are: someone must mine to make your ships.

We no mine......we make-y no shippies.......you no fly-eeeee.

Then no game-ey.


F--KIN' THINK ! Oh, wait......................

Good-bye.


1. Drone Poop is a huge mineral faucet

2. There are far too many miners for even the most dedicated cadre of suicide gankers to put a noticable dent in the mineral flow from mining

3. When Hulkageddon happened last, mineral prices didn't significantly rise, so clearly Suicide ganking's not that big of a deal. If you've had trouble with it, why do you keep mining in the same area that's proven to be unsafe?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#150 - 2011-12-27 21:00:13 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
The tier 3 bcs do encourage ganking but why even use them when cheapo destroyers can gank a hulk these days?

No it will not stop ganking. But it will stop the slew of easy ganks.

You want to spend 100M to fit a Tornado and gank a hulk have at it! Yet it should cost atleast 100M to get a hulk.

Hull HP is where it is at.

You boost only the survivability of the craft in short term bad situations such as a gank. Try to use that hull HP to tank PVE and the tears will be delightful.


The suicide gank problem (from the miner's POV) is a matter of an imbalance between Risk (suicide gank %) vs reward (Isk/hr). Instead of focusing on the Risk side of the equation, in which all fixes lead to bad things down the road, let's look at reward.

Before Drone Regions were introduced, Mining could earn ~200m/hr in Nullsec, and ~70m/hr in highsec. Now there were fewer miners, but I'd expect that income would stabilize close to those numbers (lower in hisec), as mining began competing honestly with other activities (A carrier pulling Drone Poop pulls in *WAY* more mineral m3/hr than a perfect, Rorq boosted hulk). This would have the added benefit of making the cost to gank the hulk much higher due to higher mineral costs of the ships.

Fixing the influx of Mins from the drone regions happens to be something CCP wants to do (they've said so) because they realize they made a Boo-Boo when they introduced them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Endeavour Starfleet
#151 - 2011-12-27 21:07:22 UTC
I agree that changing drones to bounties would be for the best in that regard. However when that happens the issue is only going to get worse with the stark difference between cost to gank and cost to ship and fit.

It should be quite distant but not THAT distant. A good fit dessie popping a hulk before concord arrives? You HAVE to admit that is wrong. Boosting hull HP means that dessie would die before he could deplete the hull HP and thus requires more of them or an expensive bigger craft.


It would reduce the amount of cheap ganks and atleast make the ganks that do happen forum post worthy.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#152 - 2011-12-27 21:33:23 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
I agree that changing drones to bounties would be for the best in that regard. However when that happens the issue is only going to get worse with the stark difference between cost to gank and cost to ship and fit.

It should be quite distant but not THAT distant. A good fit dessie popping a hulk before concord arrives? You HAVE to admit that is wrong. Boosting hull HP means that dessie would die before he could deplete the hull HP and thus requires more of them or an expensive bigger craft.


It would reduce the amount of cheap ganks and atleast make the ganks that do happen forum post worthy.


A 0 tank ship designed solely to do incredible DPS (850 with a LOLfit Catalyst) able to destroy a *Mining* vessel quickly seems perfectly fine to me.

An on the ball Alpha BC (tornado) can easily kill a gank dessie between their going GCC and the Hulk popping. So, then they gank the BC first, so you tank that and gank their BC ganker first and it awesomely escalates. Unfortunately mining is nowhere near lucrative enough to justify them, and fixing drone poop will fix that.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Endeavour Starfleet
#153 - 2011-12-27 21:39:31 UTC
No it is not. Not in the least when you consider the micro cost to fit said LOLfit.

Massively boost the Hull HP and that ship goes back to extreme 0 tank combat ship popper like it should be or even better requires Wolfpacks of said ships to encourage grouping.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#154 - 2011-12-27 22:27:43 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
No it is not. Not in the least when you consider the micro cost to fit said LOLfit.

Massively boost the Hull HP and that ship goes back to extreme 0 tank combat ship popper like it should be or even better requires Wolfpacks of said ships to encourage grouping.


That LOLfit is Lol cause it costs ~6 bil. That's the definition of a LOLfit: Too ridiculous to fly.

And let's be realistic. In .5 space it takes at least a Thorax or Brutix to suicide a Hulk. Not a solo catalyst.

And if we want to encourage grouping, group with some other miners and pay someone to sit on you with an instalock Alpha Tornado. They get to kill suicide gankers, and make ganking you require Alpha rather than blaster dps. Alpha's more expensive. Problem solved.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#155 - 2011-12-28 03:11:42 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Sorry, but the facts of life are: someone must mine to make your ships.

We no mine......we make-y no shippies.......you no fly-eeeee.

Then no game-ey.

Holy crap...are there still people that believe this?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Shag Sheep
#156 - 2011-12-28 05:01:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Shag Sheep
^ and that is why things do need to change. If the CCP is serious about the rock paper sizzors idea of game play and ballance then mining does need to be by far the main if not sole supplier of ore.

At the moment a player starting out as a miner is discovering that it's a half arsed low pay profession in this game. That's in regards to time and skill training compared to the rewards. The profession (if you can call it that the way it is now) doesen't even pay enough for the average player to pay for any sort of protection as is advised by others... not that any of that protection would matter against any low cost, half arsed gank.

Time for a shakeup CCP. Do away with the mining all together or make it as viable as any other profession.

RANT RANT RANT

Lol
Endeavour Starfleet
#157 - 2011-12-28 06:31:14 UTC
The issue with removing mining altogether is that there are people that strangely enjoy it or use it as a low stress way to make funds.

I think it has the potential for discussion later on but right now the issue is reducing the extreme gap between cost of victim and ganker in hisec.

The best way to DIRECTLY change that is hull HP increase. You only increase it enough to increase the gank cost by a huge amount. Not to give it a way to survive a good nullsec attack or a way to tank the belt rats without extremely good gear.
Shag Sheep
#158 - 2011-12-28 09:15:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Shag Sheep
^I agree.

Isn't it interesting how the people who argue against the rebalancing the mining profession or making the ships harder to gank, are as a majority the type who hate mining. Hate it because of the boredom or low pay... it's not their play style.

Their arguments are based on their play style. That's why they can't understand I guess. They can't come to grips with the idea that the type of player who likes mining doesn't enjoy the things they do. Why wouldn't they giggle at having their ship pop? It was a great fight after all. Just buy another one and fight again. Yeah....

For a miner it's like walking up 10,000 steps to get to the top of a hill and the ganker rides up in seconds on a speedy motorbike, jumps off and pushes the miner down to the bottom laughing. The ganker then buzzes off to the next hill to do the same to the next miner. It's fun! why wouldn't you enjoy it??? Their mindset... their limited ability to think beyond what they know means they can't comprehend the idea that the miner isn't on a motorbike and buzzing from thrill to thrill like they are. If they were, the loss wouldn't matter so much either. They'd just buzz up the next hill as well.

They can't you dumb arse.

P

Pew pew gives thrills per second. Mining gives thrills per week.

Liken it to you loosing a battleship you can hardly afford every 5 minutes. would you enjoy the game so much then? that's what it's like for a miner to play the way it is now.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#159 - 2011-12-28 09:42:03 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
The issue with removing mining altogether is that there are people that strangely enjoy it or use it as a low stress way to make funds.

The vast majority of people who mine say they do it because it can be done while tabbed out of the client while they are doing something else or can be done while they watch a movie or something outside the game. No other "profession" in the game can be played AFK so why should miners be allowed to? If a person is actually playing the game there is absolutely no way for them to be ganked in highsec...why should afk gameplay be made easier?

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#160 - 2011-12-28 20:54:45 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

1. Drone Poop is a huge mineral faucet


In NULL.

Go after THEM.

The Drone Poop in High is PATHETIC.

Please GROW brains...........PLEASE.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882