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Applying a buffer tank with active tanking

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Kheid
Ancients Of Destruction
#1 - 2015-05-11 23:05:28 UTC
Since (for armor) applying more plates or just plates at all doesn't effect the rep amount in any way how does it balance out for using them on a ship that is say dual repped like a solo zealot? Wouldn't it be more ideal to put on another resist mod or maybe cap regen? A nano even? Armor amount doesn't benefit a ship like shield does I just personally find it a bit silly in a controlled solo situation where you can pick and choose your battles to have buffer on when you have armor reps unless you're anticipating taking more damage than you can initially rep in which case it wouldn't be ideal to take the fight in the first place.
Lew Dicrous
4th Line
#2 - 2015-05-11 23:21:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lew Dicrous
It doesn't.
Yes.
ikr?

It burns when I PVP
Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-05-11 23:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Eldwinn
Kheid wrote:
Since (for armor) applying more plates or just plates at all doesn't effect the rep amount in any way how does it balance out for using them on a ship that is say dual repped like a solo zealot? Wouldn't it be more ideal to put on another resist mod or maybe cap regen? A nano even? Armor amount doesn't benefit a ship like shield does I just personally find it a bit silly in a controlled solo situation where you can pick and choose your battles to have buffer on when you have armor reps unless you're anticipating taking more damage than you can initially rep in which case it wouldn't be ideal to take the fight in the first place.


About 98% of the time you want to never mix active and passive tanking. The other 2% are rare cases. For example, having a double plated pilgrim with a mobile depo to flip into a medium rep. Just so you can rep the gate guns, are out of range of triage, and just so happen to have no repping legions to bridge to your cyno. Tl;dr it basically never happens.

As for resists, of course. Nano on an armor ship?
Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4 - 2015-05-12 00:18:33 UTC
Having a higher resist profile is always a plus for both active and buffer tanking.

But, you can't really mix active and buffer tanking very well. The reason is that you lose some of you chose between the 3 when it comes to slots, higher resist profile, higher buffer (or at least more extenders/plates), or more reps/cap recharge mods. It is almost always a better idea to mix higher resist with one of the other two because the resist makes your tank that more efficient where as adding in a repper does nothing for your buffer and adding in a plate does nothing for your rep cycles.


And while buffer has the nice ability to ignore cap pressure (at least for armor) if you don't have logi then you have to worry about the DPS race between you and your target.

And while active has a better chance to win out over someone in a DPS race you are more in danger from neuts, but you don't get as much from having logi as a buffer.


As far as putting a nano on a armor ship, it's not really worth it. The slot would be better used to put in something to help with your tank than trying to counter some of what the plate did. That and most ships that run with plates don't worry as much about maneuverability. They are going to want to latch onto the target and keep at optimal, which is almost always low speed up close and personal.
WASPY69
Xerum.
#5 - 2015-05-12 00:37:23 UTC
Mixing active tank with buffer tank works in some scenarios. Generally it's a bad idea since you rep MORE with resists as opposed to buffer.

That might sound ******** at first, but think about it. Let's do an imaginary scenario.
If you rep say 400 HP per cycle, and have a 50% EM resist, and get hit with a pure EM 1000 damage volley. And for simplicity's sake your cycle time matches the gun cycle time exactly.
Your enemy would hit you for 500 volley damage, and eventually chew through your buffer by 100 raw hp per cycle. It would be a drawn out fight but assuming he could tank you indefinitely, he'd win.

Now, assuming you had a 75% EM resist, with same rep amount as above and got hit for the same amount. you would only take 250 volley damage and tank a surplus of 150 raw hp per rep cycle.

And hence higher resists are always preferable in most situations as opposed to more buffer. Same for fleets where you have logi.

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Jenshae Chiroptera
#6 - 2015-05-12 01:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
I love the guys that have fleet like buffer for gang like groups, almost no resists and then behave like they are all solo while together.
Triple 1600 plates and short range with an afterburner for that extra added hit nothing fit.

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Kashadin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2015-05-12 01:11:57 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I love the guys that have fleet like buffer for gang like groups, almost no resists and then behave like they are all solo while together.
Triple 1600 plates and short range with an afterburner for that extra added hit nothing fit.



What are you talking about?
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-05-12 02:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
The only real exception to this is on some frigate fits. If a ship has the cap for an active tank but very little buffer, it can be effective to fit a plate over a resist module. In this instance you will rep for less, but the enemy won't be able to alpha through your active tank. I've only seen this done on the tormentor and incursus, and the incursus fit was awful.

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Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#9 - 2015-05-12 02:15:48 UTC
it depends, a dual rep cruiser has so little buffer I'd be worried about getting volleyed, plus the cap is so sensitive I'd be worried about that too. but you do have some ability to pick fights, so that helps. although I'm not sure a plate is going to help in those situations. if anything it might reduce your ability to gtfo.

for fleet I'd probably try and max buffer/resists and rely on logi. Solo max out on speed/projection/dps.

I had a few buffer + rep fits years ago as I was almost always flying in small gangs and taking gate gun fire, so I wanted something to be able to rep up in space without having to dock, and we didn't have logi. These days I don't know that I would use those fits anymore. plus the whole impact of gang links, which might change things a bit as they stack.

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Mr Grape Drink
Doomheim
#10 - 2015-05-12 02:25:28 UTC
I like it for being frig tackle in a fleet especially mixing an asb with an extender. Tank a ton of damage and not get one shot while you hold out for 30 seconds for the heavier tackle. Mmmm Jag
Ruby Actault
Mercurial Messenger Service
#11 - 2015-05-12 02:31:06 UTC
Most ships should pick one or the other, but some smaller ships it helps to have both since armor reppers are somewhat slow, and armor ships being slower in general have less ability to pick and choose fights. It really works best for HACs /Recon / Faction Cruisers that already have improved resists and are expecting to fight above their weight w/ no logistics.
ISD Supogo
ISD BH
ISD Alliance
#12 - 2015-05-12 02:56:56 UTC
Thread has been moved to Ships & Modules.

ISD BH Supogo

Bughunter

Equipment Certification and Anomaly Investigations Division (ECAID)

Interstellar Services Department
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2015-05-12 03:21:12 UTC
Usually it's better to just go all active or all buffer. Sometimes you can mix but it's on you to figure that **** out.

YES you can put a nano on an active armor tanking ship, they work extremely well actually.
Ares Desideratus
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2015-05-12 03:22:49 UTC
Kashadin wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I love the guys that have fleet like buffer for gang like groups, almost no resists and then behave like they are all solo while together.
Triple 1600 plates and short range with an afterburner for that extra added hit nothing fit.



What are you talking about?

No idea what you are talking about
Iyokus Patrouette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2015-05-12 03:40:21 UTC
Buffer fits are usually for fleet work when you have logistics to rep you.

Active Rep fits are usually for solo work when you are on your own.

as always there are exceptions and reasons not to folow the general guideline. for example an ancillary armour repper can be thought of as just extra buffer that doesn't slow you down more, so a plate and ancillary repper can be a viable choice.

a hull tanked ship can run an ancillary armour repper to bait harder by making the thing look armour tanked instead of hull tanked, making the enemy stay on grid thinking they're winning. Twisted

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Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-05-12 05:55:32 UTC
Iyokus Patrouette wrote:


a hull tanked ship can run an ancillary armour repper to bait harder by making the thing look armour tanked instead of hull tanked, making the enemy stay on grid thinking they're winning. Twisted


Interesting concept. Might give it a whirl.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#17 - 2015-05-12 07:41:09 UTC
Buffer gives you time.
Even on an active tanked ship that time may be important - time to reload paste in your AAR, time to hunt around the field for booster charges, to burn down something your rep can't handle or simply to save the booster while you close with that neuting ship...

It is not always the best option but neither is it always the worst. Resists might allow you to rep more incoming fire but you're faced with diminishing returns and once you have a DCII and a couple of EANMs, other than perhaps plugging the explosive hole, what more might you add? Of course you might be better with another magstab/heat sink/gyro/bcu (or particularly a DDA, before these were added the choice of what to fill an active Domi's lows with was much easier).

This is not even considering the more obviously "hybrid" ships - ships which fight on their buffer and carry an active component just to rep between fights (I used to have a rifter fit which relied on a plate (I think a 400mm) and an offline rep - warp to safe after a fight, online the rep and be ready for the next fight - and a friend swore by a rifter fit with a civilian repper).
Arla Sarain
#18 - 2015-05-12 09:02:07 UTC
On a ship with few slots, like on a frig, getting a resistance mod won't help a lot. Having a buffer and active will add more EHP over time than the resist mod.
Switch Savage
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-05-12 09:21:50 UTC
As already mentioned there are some rare cases where the low buffer on a ship you wish to active tank, can be offset with a plate to great effect.

One good example of this is the bait Exequror. It has measly 1750 armour and most people who fly this fine vessel will opt to enhance its already low signature, to ensure you do not bleed into structure with a dual rep setup. I choose to go the opposite route and fit an 800mm plate alongside the dual rep.

With mid-grade slaves it has 26k ehp. This allows you to dip very low armour and give the impression you are buffer fit before applying reps and sealing the fate of whatever poor soul you have snared. There are other good examples, but as a minimum of 6 low slots is required to pull this off comfortably with armour, there are not many.
WASPY69
Xerum.
#20 - 2015-05-12 17:26:18 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
(I used to have a rifter fit which relied on a plate (I think a 400mm) and an offline rep - warp to safe after a fight, online the rep and be ready for the next fight - and a friend swore by a rifter fit with a civilian repper).


That's quite possibly the dumbest thing I've heard all week. You might as well sacrifice a mid slot to fit a hull rep, you know, since repair facilities in stations are so rare.. smh.
If you HAVE to rep in space, just bring a depot in your cargo along with the rep. My advice is stop being so dumb poor and just use repair facilities. I swear, some EVE players....

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