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[Carnyx] The Jackdaw

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Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#141 - 2015-05-12 13:57:16 UTC
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone! We're now ready to share our current designs for the Jackdaw-class Caldari Tactical Destroyer.


Hi. Smile

Quote:
Jackdaw
Caldari Tactical Destroyer Bonuses Per Level:
5% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile Launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Shield Hitpoints
5% reduction in heat damage generated by modules



Can't wait for the Gallente one with Sentry drones no doubt.



Oh god, please not another Gallente sentry powerhouse. Isn't the Ishtar enough for you afk'ers?


Wow, hate drones much? Okay, it was already announced it will be a Hybrid Gun ship, so you can stand down.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#142 - 2015-05-12 14:03:30 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:

Yeah but with only 2 lows and you not using any BCUs or DPS rigs your at about 223 DPS with T2 Ammo, faction ammo drops you down to around 185 DPS. A little low for today's T3Ds.

Swap a low for a BCU and you are up to 274 T2 and 227 faction which is much better, but you are giving up a lot of tank dropping the DCU or fitting for the MAPC. Your third fit could drop the speed mod, but you are already using a 1MN prop and the base speed is ridiculously low.

I like the good design which causes choices but the base speed and dps of this T3D is so far the weakest of the 3.

No argument here. Moving one mid to a low, or giving it 2-5 more base grid would really help to bring this up closer to par.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#143 - 2015-05-12 14:05:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaari Inkuran
Terra Chrall wrote:
James Baboli wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
So if you go with a MicroAux and BCU in the lows, are there any crazy things you can pull out of this ship?

Lets find out..... Will be working on this for a bit, expect a couple asinine but amusing fits.

Concepts I will be trying for:
LSE - Not without implants, which I'm not willing to muck with when hand hacking the spreadsheet for this. Not even dual MAPC, with 2x t2 ACR
10mn AB - Rockets, yes! especially post propmod tieracide. Can even do 10mn + MSEII with an ACRI and a navy aux core. Comes out with ~3PG and 30CPU with all 5s and no implants with the soon to exist compact and a navy power core. Till then, a cheap 3% for PG should make it work. Would need to drop the MSE to get it with LMLs.
LASB- Also a practical no. Might be just barely possible with implants.
MWD + 2x MASB - yes, without fitting mods, and with a BCS for rockets.
MWD + 2x MSE - Op success. nearly perfectly eats the PG difference between 10mn compact AB and t2 1mn MWD

Yeah but with only 2 lows and you not using any BCUs or DPS rigs your at about 223 DPS with T2 Ammo, faction ammo drops you down to around 185 DPS. A little low for today's T3Ds.

Swap a low for a BCU and you are up to 274 T2 and 227 faction which is much better, but you are giving up a lot of tank dropping the DCU or fitting for the MAPC. Your third fit could drop the speed mod, but you are already using a 1MN prop and the base speed is ridiculously low.

I like the good design which causes choices but the base speed and dps of this T3D is so far the weakest of the 3.

Well light missiles are a low dps weapon after all. This is why they have 31 km range base compared to say scorch pulse which has 11. Spike has 30 km but does even less damage. You would be correct though in that no bcu is always wrong. I would consider putting all the brick in shield and dropping the dcu if you must put a microaux on it.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#144 - 2015-05-12 14:07:26 UTC
James Baboli wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:

Yeah but with only 2 lows and you not using any BCUs or DPS rigs your at about 223 DPS with T2 Ammo, faction ammo drops you down to around 185 DPS. A little low for today's T3Ds.

Swap a low for a BCU and you are up to 274 T2 and 227 faction which is much better, but you are giving up a lot of tank dropping the DCU or fitting for the MAPC. Your third fit could drop the speed mod, but you are already using a 1MN prop and the base speed is ridiculously low.

I like the good design which causes choices but the base speed and dps of this T3D is so far the weakest of the 3.

No argument here. Moving one mid to a low, or giving it 2-5 more base grid would really help to bring this up closer to par.


Doubtful the slot layout will change, so just add a few points of PG and lets roll with it.

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#145 - 2015-05-12 14:08:21 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

Well light missiles are a low dps weapon after all. This is why they have 31 km range base compared to say scorch pulse which has 11. Spike has 30 km but does even less damage. You would be correct though in that no bcu is always wrong. I would consider putting all the brick in shield and dropping the dcu if you must put a microaux on it.

Fits posted were built purely based on the numbers that I knew off the top of my head, and to check feasability of various kinds of fits. They aren't nearly what I would consider polished or correct, just proof of concept pre-release.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#146 - 2015-05-12 14:33:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
My biggest issue with this ship is the speed using the intended 1MN sized afterburner. I understand the need for trade offs but having AB speed outside of prop mode be worse than a cruiser bothers me. Even in prop mode it only becomes average. I would like to see an increase in base speed.

What if you added to the prop mode an additional AB speed bonus? This would at least make prop mode with a 1mn AB have the feel of a special role/mode boost. I think a T3D with an AB, in prop mode, should be close to an AB frigate excluding interceptors, of course.


Compare this T3D to the Caldari missile Assault Frigate. The Hawk has more speed, smaller sig, better resists, better scan res, active tank, 50% reduced MWD penalty, and 50% missile velocity while having 1 less launcher, 1 less mid, and kinetic lock.

The Jackdaw has to go into Def mode to have the resists and sig, has to go into prop mode and is still slower, has to go into sniper mode to get 16% more missile velocity, much better targeting range, and still have less scan res.

I was excited when the Jackdaw was announced because I thought it would be hands down better than a Hawk. But the Hawk is better than Prop mode; with its active tank, T2 resists, and smaller sig, might be better than Defensive mode; and is competitive vs sniper mode, though the Jackdaw wins here.

My hope is there can be some small tweaks to make the Jackdaw as good as the Hawk while in a given mode. With, as I have stated, speed being the biggest limitation.

The biggest draw for me to use the Jackdaw over a hawk right now is the damage selection and the high/mid slot. But that seems a little underwhelming compared to the other T3Ds.

All that said, I still am excited for T3Ds in general and appreciate the hard work CCP has put into bringing us a new ship class.
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#147 - 2015-05-12 15:08:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaari Inkuran
Terra Chrall wrote:
My biggest issue with this ship is the speed using the intended 1MN sized afterburner. I understand the need for trade offs but having AB speed outside of prop mode be worse than a cruiser bothers me. Even in prop mode it only becomes average. I would like to see an increase in base speed.

What if you added to the prop mode an additional AB speed bonus? This would at least make prop mode with a 1mn AB have the feel of a special role/mode boost. I think a T3D with an AB, in prop mode, should be close to an AB frigate excluding interceptors, of course.


Compare this T3D to the Caldari missile Assault Frigate. The Hawk has more speed, smaller sig, better resists, better scan res, active tank, 50% reduced MWD penalty, and 50% missile velocity while having 1 less launcher, 1 less mid, and kinetic lock.

The Jackdaw has to go into Def mode to have the resists and sig, has to go into prop mode and is still slower, has to go into sniper mode to get 16% more missile velocity, much better targeting range, and still have less scan res.

I was excited when the Jackdaw was announced because I thought it would be hands down better than a Hawk. But the Hawk is better than Prop mode; with its active tank, T2 resists, and smaller sig, might be better than Defensive mode; and is competitive vs sniper mode, though the Jackdaw wins here.

My hope is there can be some small tweaks to make the Jackdaw as good as the Hawk while in a given mode. With, as I have stated, speed being the biggest limitation.

The biggest draw for me to use the Jackdaw over a hawk right now is the damage selection and the high/mid slot. But that seems a little underwhelming compared to the other T3Ds.

All that said, I still am excited for T3Ds in general and appreciate the hard work CCP has put into bringing us a new ship class.

You still forgot the fact the jackdaw has the buffer of a bricky cruiser. And ten effective unlocked launchers to the hawks locked eight.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#148 - 2015-05-12 15:17:02 UTC
Terra Chrall wrote:
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone! We're now ready to share our current designs for the Jackdaw-class Caldari Tactical Destroyer.


Hi. Smile

Quote:
Jackdaw
Caldari Tactical Destroyer Bonuses Per Level:
5% bonus to Rocket and Light Missile Launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Shield Hitpoints
5% reduction in heat damage generated by modules



Can't wait for the Gallente one with Sentry drones no doubt.



Oh god, please not another Gallente sentry powerhouse. Isn't the Ishtar enough for you afk'ers?


Wow, hate drones much? Okay, it was already announced it will be a Hybrid Gun ship, so you can stand down.


Nah, I don't hate drones. I hate when a particular race's ships all end up the same. I hated Caldari = Kinetic. I'd hate if every Gallente ship ended up being a Sentry boat.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#149 - 2015-05-12 15:29:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Theronth Valarax wrote:
Ix Method wrote:
It would be beautiful if you'd release the EFT files or whatever you use for us to play with when you rebalance/release ships. Colour me lazy but it'd probably improve the standard of feedback you receive.

EFT and PYFA are developed by player 3rd party and CCP has nothing to do with them.
Having said that the stats are in the first post, if you don't want to wait for creators of said applications to update their software I suggest grabbing a calculator, a pen and doing calculations by yourself. All speed/tank/dps formulas are avaible in web.

I feel like they should just list the stats with 'all V' when they post, just so peoplebwho forget skills exist, will stop cluttering the thread with trash.


Every single ship and module is balanced against All V skills.

Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

To clarify this is really an issue of some people comparing apples, unskilled stats, to oranges, skilled stats. Some people are fine when they compare apples to apples. By listing all v stats, ccp will cause everyone to talk in oranges instead of mixing them. I think that made sense.


Your calculator doesn't multiply by 1.25? Big smile

Further logic following this decision would be to remove all the skills! It's merely an inconvenience, killing any flavour in the game.

Quote:
Maybe im just crazy


You are. Smile

Have a nice day.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#150 - 2015-05-12 15:31:58 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Terra Chrall wrote:
My biggest issue with this ship is the speed using the intended 1MN sized afterburner. I understand the need for trade offs but having AB speed outside of prop mode be worse than a cruiser bothers me. Even in prop mode it only becomes average. I would like to see an increase in base speed.

What if you added to the prop mode an additional AB speed bonus? This would at least make prop mode with a 1mn AB have the feel of a special role/mode boost. I think a T3D with an AB, in prop mode, should be close to an AB frigate excluding interceptors, of course.


Compare this T3D to the Caldari missile Assault Frigate. The Hawk has more speed, smaller sig, better resists, better scan res, active tank, 50% reduced MWD penalty, and 50% missile velocity while having 1 less launcher, 1 less mid, and kinetic lock.

The Jackdaw has to go into Def mode to have the resists and sig, has to go into prop mode and is still slower, has to go into sniper mode to get 16% more missile velocity, much better targeting range, and still have less scan res.

I was excited when the Jackdaw was announced because I thought it would be hands down better than a Hawk. But the Hawk is better than Prop mode; with its active tank, T2 resists, and smaller sig, might be better than Defensive mode; and is competitive vs sniper mode, though the Jackdaw wins here.

My hope is there can be some small tweaks to make the Jackdaw as good as the Hawk while in a given mode. With, as I have stated, speed being the biggest limitation.

The biggest draw for me to use the Jackdaw over a hawk right now is the damage selection and the high/mid slot. But that seems a little underwhelming compared to the other T3Ds.

All that said, I still am excited for T3Ds in general and appreciate the hard work CCP has put into bringing us a new ship class.

You still forgot the fact the jackdaw has the buffer of a bricky cruiser. And ten effective unlocked launchers to the hawks locked eight.

No I glossed over the buffer tank, because I have not run numbers on it, so didn't have much to comment. And depending on incoming DPS the Hawk's bonused active tank with T2 resists is quite strong so I see it as competitive. I did mention the extra launcher and the damage selection being one of the few attractions I do have.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#151 - 2015-05-12 15:31:58 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Theronth Valarax wrote:
Ix Method wrote:
It would be beautiful if you'd release the EFT files or whatever you use for us to play with when you rebalance/release ships. Colour me lazy but it'd probably improve the standard of feedback you receive.

EFT and PYFA are developed by player 3rd party and CCP has nothing to do with them.
Having said that the stats are in the first post, if you don't want to wait for creators of said applications to update their software I suggest grabbing a calculator, a pen and doing calculations by yourself. All speed/tank/dps formulas are avaible in web.

I feel like they should just list the stats with 'all V' when they post, just so peoplebwho forget skills exist, will stop cluttering the thread with trash.


Every single ship and module is balanced against All V skills.

Have a nice day.

It's also very easy to make a spreadsheet to do the initial calcs if you worry so much about them. The only stats that aren't ridiculously simple to acquire final values are the derived stats, like peak recharge or align time.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#152 - 2015-05-12 15:39:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Traejun DiSanctis wrote:

Nah, I don't hate drones. I hate when a particular race's ships all end up the same. I hated Caldari = Kinetic. I'd hate if every Gallente ship ended up being a Sentry boat.

Fair enough, but your language choices indicated some spite. Plus Galente are pretty balanced having plenty of Hybrid gun choices, Atron, Incursus, Taranis, Enyo, Catalyst, Deimos, Proteus, etc etc etc. They are spit pretty well between Drones and Hybrids, and people are already looking forward to the blaster Hectate.

EDIT : Formatting quote...
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#153 - 2015-05-12 15:41:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
There are formulas for the everything out in the public.

Peak shield recharge is shield hp / shield recharge time * 2.4

Align is -ln(0.25) × Mass_kg × Agility / 1000000, i.e for a Bestower: in(0.25) * negate it * 13,500,000 kg * 0.95 / 1,000,000 = 17.77 seconds. Smile

Woo, ask the community. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Hakaari Inkuran
State War Academy
Caldari State
#154 - 2015-05-12 15:42:09 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Theronth Valarax wrote:

EFT and PYFA are developed by player 3rd party and CCP has nothing to do with them.
Having said that the stats are in the first post, if you don't want to wait for creators of said applications to update their software I suggest grabbing a calculator, a pen and doing calculations by yourself. All speed/tank/dps formulas are avaible in web.

I feel like they should just list the stats with 'all V' when they post, just so peoplebwho forget skills exist, will stop cluttering the thread with trash.


Every single ship and module is balanced against All V skills.

Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

To clarify this is really an issue of some people comparing apples, unskilled stats, to oranges, skilled stats. Some people are fine when they compare apples to apples. By listing all v stats, ccp will cause everyone to talk in oranges instead of mixing them. I think that made sense.


Your calculator doesn't multiply by 1.25? Big smile

Further logic following this decision would be to remove all the skills! It's merely an inconvenience, killing any flavour in the game.

Quote:
Maybe im just crazy


You are. Smile

Have a nice day.
are you dense? Im complaining about OTHER people posting incorrectly and proposing an easy solution that would stop them from being as incorrect as they currently are. Get off your moronic high horse.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#155 - 2015-05-12 15:44:54 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

I feel like they should just list the stats with 'all V' when they post, just so peoplebwho forget skills exist, will stop cluttering the thread with trash.


Every single ship and module is balanced against All V skills.

Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

To clarify this is really an issue of some people comparing apples, unskilled stats, to oranges, skilled stats. Some people are fine when they compare apples to apples. By listing all v stats, ccp will cause everyone to talk in oranges instead of mixing them. I think that made sense.


Your calculator doesn't multiply by 1.25? Big smile

Further logic following this decision would be to remove all the skills! It's merely an inconvenience, killing any flavour in the game.

Quote:
Maybe im just crazy


You are. Smile

Have a nice day.
are you dense? Im complaining about OTHER people posting incorrectly and proposing an easy solution that would stop them from being as incorrect as they currently are. Get off your moronic high horse.


Real spaceship stats would get lose in time. Sad

Craay

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Terra Chrall
Doomheim
#156 - 2015-05-12 15:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Terra Chrall
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:

are you dense? Im complaining about OTHER people posting incorrectly and proposing an easy solution that would stop them from being as incorrect as they currently are. Get off your moronic high horse.

Two problems. 1. The issue with posting stats all Vs is people without perfect skills, would be disappointed when it did not perform as advertised. 2. People would still quote unskilled stats because why else would they be comparing skilled and unskilled now? It is either for their own agenda or they don't check the source. Having CCP no longer list unskilled base stats would confuse the issue for more people than it would solve.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#157 - 2015-05-12 16:02:50 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
There are formulas for the everything out in the public.

Peak shield recharge is shield hp / shield recharge time * 2.4

Align is -ln(0.25) × Mass_kg × Agility / 1000000, i.e for a Bestower: in(0.25) * negate it * 13,500,000 kg * 0.95 / 1,000,000 = 17.77 seconds. Smile

Woo, ask the community. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

Got peak capacitor recharge? It would be useful for another of my projects....

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#158 - 2015-05-12 16:10:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
James Baboli wrote:
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
There are formulas for the everything out in the public.

Peak shield recharge is shield hp / shield recharge time * 2.4

Align is -ln(0.25) × Mass_kg × Agility / 1000000, i.e for a Bestower: in(0.25) * negate it * 13,500,000 kg * 0.95 / 1,000,000 = 17.77 seconds. Smile

Woo, ask the community. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

Got peak capacitor recharge? It would be useful for another of my projects....


http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Capacitor_Recharge_Rate

Smile

Appears to be the same 2.4-2.5 multiplier, i.e. for a Maller 1625 cap / 465 sec = 3.49 cap/sec * 2.5 = 8.73 peak cap/sec. Smile

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#159 - 2015-05-12 16:14:35 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:


*snipped, the good stuff*

Smile

Appears to be the same 2.4-2.5 multiplier, i.e. for a Maller 1625 cap / 465 sec = 3.49 cap/sec * 2.5 = 8.73 peak cap/sec. Smile

Sweet. Had seen that, but parsing it well enough to spreadsheet never happened, as I only ever got around to that after the quafe and frentix, partying with my fedo and some dancers, maybe even the damsel.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#160 - 2015-05-12 16:33:31 UTC
Wow. Wish the recharge rate for the shields was posted. It might be really mean as a passive tank, as a dual MSEII + CDFEII fit gets 5625 shield HP; With a base 800s time, (equal to the svipul) it would pull in a rocking 23 raw HP/s passive tank.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp