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We all want new ships dont we.... how about cloaky EAS (Electronic Attack Ships)
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Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#41 - 2011-09-13 16:45:33 UTC
basically tl;dr

recons work cloaky and non-cloaky

EAS ships are more than capable of achieving this

with careful implementation and considered balance they will add further flavor and variety to the ships already available

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#42 - 2011-09-13 16:55:36 UTC
This sums it up:

Quote:
Electronic attack ships are mobile, resilient electronic warfare platforms. Although well suited to a variety of situations, they really come into their own in skirmish and fleet encounters, particularly against larger ships. For anyone wanting to decentralize their fleet’s electronic countermeasure capabilities and make them immeasurably harder to counter, few things will serve better than a squadron or two of these little vessels.


Do they do this? The answer is a resounding 'no'. They are easier to kill. Large ships eat them alive. A cloak won't really change that. They have to appear to join the fight and the underlying problems are still there - too slow, too big, etc... As for adding combat vs. recon - you'd have to add some serious combat bonuses to the current class. And since each only has three highs you're going to get a 'meh' effect.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#43 - 2011-09-13 18:15:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
basically tl;dr recons work cloaky and non-cloaky


And that same principle applied to frigates is a stupid and balance wrecking idea.

Let me just repeat here: a combat buffed Kitsune would be the next Dramiel - a ludicrously overpowered solo frigate that would require a blob to kill.

Quote:
with careful implementation and considered balance they will add further flavor and variety to the ships already available


As you still seem to be having trouble reading, I'll copy this over from the last page and even put it in bold for you:

A few minor tweaks are all the EAF class needs to bring them up from "workable" to "excellent".
What I am against is buffing their combat abilities, or adding covops cloaks onto them. Both of those are balance nightmares, especially considering a simpler solution exists.

I'll repeat this bit for you as well:
especially considering a simpler solution exists.

God this is like talking to a five year old.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2011-09-13 23:42:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Skippermonkey
......the forums ate my whole reply and i cant sit through typing it all out again - trying to be brief here

come back with a more reasoned response other than bolding and underlinging some text and i might start to believe your side of the debate

but as i understand it, the EAS could never be a solo pwnmobile as you put it

the mention of upgrading combat capabilities came from a poorly worded piece of sarcasm from you that i misunderstood, lets just ignore that from this point on

there has been nothing so far that can sway me from the belief that the cloaky/non-cloaky relationship in the RECON ships cannot be directly realised in frigate form with the EAS ship line

If you really care, try and sway my position with well thought out critique, please dont just underline or bold some guff that you have already typed, because so far you are unconvincing to say the least

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#45 - 2011-09-14 00:16:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
come back with a more reasoned response other than bolding and underlinging some text and i might start to believe your side of the debate

I repeated it in bold because you've still not managed to answer it. Why split EAFs into combat and recon variants when a simple stat tweak would suffice?
If you don't want me to keep repeating stuff, then actually try answering the point. Call it guff or dismiss it all you like, you just make yourself look all the more dimwitted for repeatedly ignoring a legitimate point.

Quote:
but as i understand it, the EAS could never be a solo pwnmobile as you put it

A combat EAF would, if you did it in the style of the recons.

Quote:
there has been nothing so far that can sway me from the belief that the cloaky/non-cloaky relationship in the RECON ships cannot be directly realised in frigate form with the EAS ship line

Then you're either stubborn or stupid. I'm still making up my mind. In any case, I'll reword this yet again because you evidently haven't even bothered to read the other couple of times:

Relationship between combat recon and force recon for newbies:
Combat recon - solid DPS, good ewar, no cloak capability.
Force recon - pathetic DPS, good ewar, can cloak.

Now, on the Caldari side of things what you get from this arrangement in EAF form is one cloaky Kitsune (why does this need to exist, exactly?) and one non-cloaky pwnmobile that will utterly ruin any other frigate or destroyer in the game with basically no chance of losing.

On the other race side of things, all you end up with there is... a couple of cloaky tacklers. Wow. Yeah, there's totally no other ship in the game that can do that...
(Oh and the Caldari combat-EAF would still stomp all of them in a fight.)

The thing is, what you've utterly failed to take into account (among many other things) is that EWAR does not scale with ship size. Know why a Rook isn't an overpowered solo ship? Because it struggles with mounting enough tackle, jam strength, tank and DPS all at once and winds up being overall meh.
The Kitsune on the other hand can 100% jam most frigates/destroyers with a single multispec. Throw better DPS/tank ability into the mix, and even you can imagine what kind of hell that would raise.
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2011-09-14 00:51:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Skippermonkey
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:

I repeated it in bold because you've still not managed to answer it. Why split EAFs into combat and recon variants when a simple stat tweak would suffice?

because first and foremost, i want a cloaky EAS

Quote:
If you don't want me to keep repeating stuff, then actually try answering the point. Call it guff or dismiss it all you like, you just make yourself look all the more dimwitted for repeatedly ignoring a legitimate point.

again, i have multiple times

*quote*Then you're either stubborn or stupid. I'm still making up my mind. In any case, I'll reword this yet again because you evidently haven't even bothered to read the other couple of times:

Relationship between combat recon and force recon for newbies:
Combat recon - solid DPS, good ewar, no cloak capability.
Force recon - pathetic DPS, good ewar, can cloak.*/quote*
once again you forget to factor in things like ECM range, tank ability, etc and once again, if you can balance the cruisers you can balance the frigates

*quote*Now, on the Caldari side of things what you get from this arrangement in EAF form is one cloaky Kitsune (why does this need to exist, exactly?)*/quote*
just because you cnt immediately think of a way to use the ship doesnt disqualify it from existence

*quote* and one non-cloaky pwnmobile that will utterly ruin any other frigate or destroyer in the game with basically no chance of losing.*/quote*
once again, just because you cant think of a way to kill a heavily biased ECM boat, doesnt mean its impossible. Hell, even Dramiels which we can agree are OP are easily beaten in the right cirsumstance

*quote*On the other race side of things, all you end up with there is... a couple of cloaky tacklers. Wow. Yeah, there's totally no other ship in the game that can do that...*/quote*
no, much more than that, the whole point of a cloak is to hold the advantage of surprise in you own hands. like all cloaky/non-cloaky setups, the cloaky ships pay for this ability by having lower stats elsewhere

Quote:
(Oh and the Caldari combat-EAF would still stomp all of them in a fight.)

possibly, but then thats out of context, as well as the fact that being EAS ships themselves they would have a high sensor strength, and be some of the better ships at surviving an ECM attempt. aldo totally ignoring that fact that you would be silly to attempt to solo in an EAS.

Quote:
The thing is, what you've utterly failed to take into account (among many other things) is that EWAR does not scale with ship size. Know why a Rook isn't an overpowered solo ship? Because it struggles with mounting enough tackle, jam strength, tank and DPS all at once and winds up being overall meh.

EWAR does scale with ship size, firstly you get the number of midslots to play with, and secondly, this can be directly controlled by the ship bonuses you apply to the ship. solo frigates might have 1 maybe 2 slots to utilse their EWAR, hardly OP.

Quote:
The Kitsune on the other hand can 100% jam most frigates/destroyers with a single multispec. Throw better DPS/tank ability into the mix, and even you can imagine what kind of hell that would raise.

it is YOU not ME that keeps talking of making these ships better at dps, stop using it as a poor excuse, the ships dont need it

also, once again, EAS are not meant to be 'excellent solo ships' and my suggestions dont leand towards that way of thinking.

edit - used the strange *quote* a few times because you can only quote 5 times in a single post

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#47 - 2011-09-14 02:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
There are two interceptors for each race. One is a pure tackler. The other is more of a dog fighter. There are two assault frigates for each race. Each one is built around a different weapon system.

I can't see two EAF for each race. We're talking about ten slot frigates which by their nature need most of those slots as mids. You can't make enough of a variation to justify a second ship.

Edit: the covert ops frigate is your cloaky recon. P
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2011-09-14 03:03:29 UTC
Personally i think a revamp of the e-war frigs could be handy, add a cov ops cloak, more EHP and an extra high for damage?

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#49 - 2011-09-14 09:50:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Skippermonkey
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
the covert ops frigate is your cloaky recon. P

the point of this thread is to aim at getting a line of cloaky EWAR bonused ships

Headerman wrote:
Personally i think a revamp of the e-war frigs could be handy, add a cov ops cloak, more EHP and an extra high for damage?

the last two pages of this thread pretty much came to the conclusion that a cloaky EWAR bonused frigate should not be damage buffed or bonused, but speed and signature buffs would be welcome

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#50 - 2011-09-14 11:08:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington
So basically because "I WANT IT I WANT IT I WANT IT". Great start.

Quote:
if you can balance the cruisers you can balance the frigates


Frigates are not cruisers. In particular, frigates are at far higher risk of obsoleting each other in their various role than cruisers are, because the stat gaps between them are much smaller.

Quote:
just because you cnt immediately think of a way to use the ship doesnt disqualify it from existence


I can think of plenty of uses - none of which contribute much in the way of gameplay or general fun. 1 Cloaky ECM ship is all the game needs, and other ships can fill the "role" of cloaky tackle already.

Quote:
once again, just because you cant think of a way to kill a heavily biased ECM boat, doesnt mean its impossible. Hell, even Dramiels which we can agree are OP are easily beaten in the right cirsumstance
...
aldo totally ignoring that fact that you would be silly to attempt to solo in an EAS.


This would be worse than a Dramiel. Combat Kitsune attacks your frigate/dessy - you get permajammed, you die horribly with no chance of fighting back.

And regarding solo: not with combat buffs it wouldn't. Like I've explained to you (several times. God you're slow.) Throw decent combat ability in with the mobility and jamming power and you get a hideously OP solo ship.
(Oh and as I've already mentioned a few times but as usual you either didn't read or didn't understand, the Sentinel is a widely used solo ship already.)

Quote:
the whole point of a cloak is to hold the advantage of surprise in you own hands. like all cloaky/non-cloaky setups, the cloaky ships pay for this ability by having lower stats elsewhere


Sigh. Looks like I need to use the small words again.
Ship roles of each EAF
Kitsune - ECM
Hyena - Webby tackle
Keres - Ranged tackle
Sentinel - Neut/TD tackle, but mostly a solo ship.

Add a cloak to the Kitsune, and you get a small, cheap Falcon. Why does the game need this?
Add a cloak to the others, and you get a cloaked tackle ship. You know, the exact same thing a bomber or covops can do already.
So what does this accomplish besides adding more of the same?

Quote:
it is YOU not ME that keeps talking of making these ships better at dps


Actually, it's you that keeps going "WWAAAAAAAAAAAH, THESE SHOULD BE LIKE COMBAT RECONS", which by definition means EWAR ships with supplementary combat ability. If this is not what you want, then stop comparing them to recon ships.

Also you've still not presented any kind of argument for why this split should happen compared to, oh yes, a few small stat tweaks that would fix them up nicely without having to **** about creating entirely new and unnecessary classes.

Alternative idea to the "let's split the EAFs" stupidity:
Kitsune - small lock range buff, reduced sig radius.
Hyena - small web range buff, reduced sig radius
Keres - reduced sig radius
Sentinel - reduced sig radius
Oh look, 4 ships sorted without adding a covops cloak to anything.
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