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Make War Declarations More Dynamic - Counter Bribery and Attrition War

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Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#1 - 2015-05-09 17:12:54 UTC
All right, let's face it - war declarations as a mechanic are incredibly counter intuitive, rage inducing, and generally stupid. I say this as the CEO of a corp that is constantly at war, both on the offense and defense.

From a "lore" point of view, the idea of a wardec is simple: your corporation is bribing CONCORD to "look the other way" so you can shoot whomever you wish in the "defending" corporation.

But if this were true, why is it that a pirate corporation can pay 50 million ISK to bribe CONCRD, but the defending (and high security standings) industrial corporation can't COUNTER-BRIBE CONCORD to do their goddamn job?

For instance, a 5-person merc corp can wardec a 100-person mining corp for a piddling amount of ISK. Is it not reasonable that mining corp could offer CONCORD double to go back to work?

GENERAL, VAGUE, TOP-LEVEL MECHANICS

  1. Starting a war works exactly how it works now, except the offensive side chooses how much to bribe CONCORD for (starting at the current price as a minimum)
  2. The defending corp can pay 2x the current offensive cost incurred (over however long the war has run) to cancel the war
  3. A war cooldown timer is started. During that cooldown, the offending corp can re-declare war, at double the rate of the previous war declaration. The timer gets longer the higher the multiplier is.
  4. This could go back and forth until one side chooses not to pay, offers surrender, or if the offensive corp doesn't renew the war during its cooldown.


This kind of mechanic would do a few things:

  • Force corps to wardec "reasonable" targets
  • Change wardecs to being a more dynamic war with military, fiscal, and time management considerations
  • Give "defender" corps multiple options for ending a war, including offering surrender fees if the CONCORD bribes become too expensive.
  • Prevent corps from deccing dozens or hundreds of entities it has no real interest in engaging.
  • Give a real reason for surrendering, in that the costs associated with surrender will eventually pale in comparison to CONCORD bribes.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2 - 2015-05-09 17:31:02 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
But if this were true, why is it that a pirate corporation can pay 50 million ISK to bribe CONCRD, but the defending (and high security standings) industrial corporation can't COUNTER-BRIBE CONCORD to do their goddamn job?


Because then it's not non consensual PvP at all.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#3 - 2015-05-09 18:25:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
But if this were true, why is it that a pirate corporation can pay 50 million ISK to bribe CONCRD, but the defending (and high security standings) industrial corporation can't COUNTER-BRIBE CONCORD to do their goddamn job?


Because then it's not non consensual PvP at all.


It is fiscal PvP, or the threat of it. It is also a bargaining chip.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4 - 2015-05-09 19:35:05 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
But if this were true, why is it that a pirate corporation can pay 50 million ISK to bribe CONCRD, but the defending (and high security standings) industrial corporation can't COUNTER-BRIBE CONCORD to do their goddamn job?


Because then it's not non consensual PvP at all.


It is fiscal PvP, or the threat of it. It is also a bargaining chip.


You can already PvP in the market.

But an outright isk shield? I would think that rather unfriendly to new players, especially new players who are interested in piracy.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#5 - 2015-05-09 19:40:13 UTC
I agree that Wardecs need to be revamped, but I'm not sure an isk war is the way to do it.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2015-05-09 20:13:55 UTC
Well, it'd be nice to never, ever have to worry about a wardec again.

Wait, no. If you want wardecs removed, which is what this suggestion actually is, then why the hell are you on the CSM?

You cannot remove PVP from a PVP game. Deal. With. It.
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#7 - 2015-05-09 20:16:22 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Well, it'd be nice to never, ever have to worry about a wardec again.

Wait, no. If you want wardecs removed, which is what this suggestion actually is, then why the hell are you on the CSM?

You cannot remove PVP from a PVP game. Deal. With. It.


Your comment implies that any possible war target has infinitely more ISK and patience than you do.

If that were true, they could already laugh at your wardecs through funding infinite ships for you to blow up and dealing with infinite stress of your aggression.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2015-05-09 20:21:30 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Well, it'd be nice to never, ever have to worry about a wardec again.

Wait, no. If you want wardecs removed, which is what this suggestion actually is, then why the hell are you on the CSM?

You cannot remove PVP from a PVP game. Deal. With. It.


Your comment implies that any possible war target has infinitely more ISK and patience than you do.

If that were true, they could already laugh at your wardecs through funding infinite ships for you to blow up and dealing with infinite stress of your aggression.



No, we have more ISK and patience than any possible war target, and are therefore going to be totally and utterly immune to wardecs, which we shouldn't be. (Seriously, look at my corp.)

A highsec industry corp with anyone remotely capable of market trading is going to be able to throw up more money to block decs than anyone short of marmite and the other big wardec groups is going to be able to counter, thus buying themselves immunity to any casual wardec, which is bad.



Can you explain why ANYONE should be immune to wardecs? And yes, buying immunity to decs does count.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2015-05-09 20:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
multi line bad idea ahead

corp declares war, bribes concord.

defender counterbribes, concord wavers, sets up conflict beacon in ( wherever, outside of station with corp offices, random .5/.6 system, etc).

Corps use entosis on conflict beacon, t1 only. all on grid with beacon are fair game, aggressors must have at least a quarter of the defenders forces ( 5 aggressors can counter 19 defenders).

War continues as long as aggressors have the beacon, or if it goes uncontested. If contested for the full entosis cycle, war is suspended for x many hours. If the defenders successfully defend for over half of the wardec period, war is over early, OR wardec can not be extended.

Gives defenders a reason to undock, and agressors someone to shoot if the defenders try to man up (edit: or woman up, didn't mean to exclude).

Also partially limits the ratio of aggressors to defenders. Still possible even if the aggressors are much less numerous, unless the defenders get their **** together.

no help for wars between groups of similar size.

end of bad idea

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#10 - 2015-05-09 20:25:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You can already PvP in the market.

But an outright isk shield? I would think that rather unfriendly to new players, especially new players who are interested in piracy.

These arguments cut both ways. You can already PvP in lowsec/nullsec/wormholes. Wardecs are unfriendly to new players.

I think wardecs need an overhaul but I don't like the solution in the OP because there is not enough player interaction involved. I would prefer a more creative solution. Perhaps doubling the wardec fee should set the aggressor corp suspect for the duration of the dec. This wouldn't be a direct shield but would add risk for the wardec corp and provide opportunities for interaction.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Atomeon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2015-05-09 21:14:54 UTC
The general idea of OP is correct, you should be able to have a counter option. Maybe Concord is too much for some ppl (but i like the idea).

One Counter Option is pay double the Faction police to set the as Criminal suspect, so faction police are after them, for the duration of the war. Not ALL 4 faction police will "treat with love" those ones, but only the one you have at its space your HeadQuarters. So if you have Dodixie as HQ the Gallente navy will be after you.

A second option is set a mercenary corp (for example) at "Brothers/Sisters in War" Status (at 1 specific war, not all) and they can assist you with a given war. Of course you should pay the merc a fixed price. This option could be abused as the Merc Corp can wardec with alts and "offer help" with main Corp.
Maybe the payment price comes as a % from kills they made. Merc Corp killed 2 cruisers, 5 frigates till the end of war and they get paid 25% of they value (ship +fit ).
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#12 - 2015-05-09 21:37:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Chance Ravinne
Danika Princip wrote:
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Well, it'd be nice to never, ever have to worry about a wardec again.

Wait, no. If you want wardecs removed, which is what this suggestion actually is, then why the hell are you on the CSM?

You cannot remove PVP from a PVP game. Deal. With. It.


Your comment implies that any possible war target has infinitely more ISK and patience than you do.

If that were true, they could already laugh at your wardecs through funding infinite ships for you to blow up and dealing with infinite stress of your aggression.


No, we have more ISK and patience than any possible war target, and are therefore going to be totally and utterly immune to wardecs, which we shouldn't be. (Seriously, look at my corp.)

A highsec industry corp with anyone remotely capable of market trading is going to be able to throw up more money to block decs than anyone short of marmite and the other big wardec groups is going to be able to counter, thus buying themselves immunity to any casual wardec, which is bad.

Can you explain why ANYONE should be immune to wardecs? And yes, buying immunity to decs does count.


By your logic you are already immune to wardecs because the losses incurred on your ships are a drop in the bucket compared to your cash reserves.

I personally have a great deal of ISK and therefore my losses to war targets don't affect me in a significant personal way. You could say that I am personally IMMUNE TO WARDECS. I also live in w-space so I guess I am DOUBLE IMMUNE to wardecs!

However it also means I could literally wardec 100 corporations tomorrow for no reason. That is ridiculous and shows how stupid the system is. It doesn't make logical sense, in-game/lore sense, and it is hugely tilted in favor of the aggressor, even though the war is meant to be "mutual" in some sense.

EDIT: I would also like to point out that no, having lots of ISK will not make you immune to wardecs for two reasons.

First is that you may have 10 wars declared on you... maybe you can afford to bid one up to 20 billion ISK, but can you afford 200 billion?

Second is that at some point you will have to realize the cost you are paying to avoid war is more than you would lose either by offering surrender to your aggressor, or simply accepting the losses of the war.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#13 - 2015-05-09 22:12:32 UTC
Zappity wrote:

These arguments cut both ways. You can already PvP in lowsec/nullsec/wormholes. Wardecs are unfriendly to new players.


And do wardecs need to be more, or less accessible to new players? Conflict in general needs to be more accessible in highsec as a general rule.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#14 - 2015-05-09 22:17:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zappity wrote:

These arguments cut both ways. You can already PvP in lowsec/nullsec/wormholes. Wardecs are unfriendly to new players.


And do wardecs need to be more, or less accessible to new players? Conflict in general needs to be more accessible in highsec as a general rule.

I agree. That is why I like the idea of more flashy yellow pilots in highsec.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-05-09 22:42:15 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You can already PvP in the market.

But an outright isk shield? I would think that rather unfriendly to new players, especially new players who are interested in piracy.

These arguments cut both ways. You can already PvP in lowsec/nullsec/wormholes. Wardecs are unfriendly to new players.

I think wardecs need an overhaul but I don't like the solution in the OP because there is not enough player interaction involved. I would prefer a more creative solution. Perhaps doubling the wardec fee should set the aggressor corp suspect for the duration of the dec. This wouldn't be a direct shield but would add risk for the wardec corp and provide opportunities for interaction.



This would be awesome, but won't fly. Too many risk averse people would get shot.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#16 - 2015-05-09 23:10:45 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zappity wrote:

These arguments cut both ways. You can already PvP in lowsec/nullsec/wormholes. Wardecs are unfriendly to new players.


And do wardecs need to be more, or less accessible to new players? Conflict in general needs to be more accessible in highsec as a general rule.

I agree. That is why I like the idea of more flashy yellow pilots in highsec.


If you want to encourage and proliferate conflict, handicapping the aggressor is not how you do it. That's typically the kind of thing you ask for if you want conflict actively discouraged.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#17 - 2015-05-10 02:27:36 UTC
NIce thought Chance, but I'd rather see a fox that makes any neutral assisting ships become war targets for all wardecs the assistance recipient has for the total duration of all outstanding wardecs. Bye bye neutral RR's and Boosts.
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#18 - 2015-05-10 02:42:35 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
NIce thought Chance, but I'd rather see a fox that makes any neutral assisting ships become war targets for all wardecs the assistance recipient has for the total duration of all outstanding wardecs. Bye bye neutral RR's and Boosts.


That would be beautiful.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-05-10 08:02:04 UTC
Here is a proposal I made a while ago https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5539135

I'm my own NPC alt.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#20 - 2015-05-10 12:37:21 UTC
Gave you a like, not because this is a fantastic idea that fixes wardecs for centuries to come but because pretty much anything would be better than the current system and that it's nice to see a CSM actively trying to do something about it.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
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