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Make market speculation more fair

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GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#81 - 2015-05-06 17:22:10 UTC
I got out good. sold my newly-gifted Genos at 124/116 mil.

See ya, suckers! Lol

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2015-05-06 17:25:03 UTC
Hakaari Inkuran wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Donnachadh wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Unless you change how downtime happen, then no. Unless you want to suggest CCP have their staff responsible for downtime procedures to have work shift spanning any part of the day across the years to be able to even out the downtime across all time zone...

That is only one possible method that CCP could and should investigate as a possible solution and there is no technical reason why it cannot be done that way. Several of the online games I play routinely change the timing of major release as a way of balancing things across the time zones and see no reason why CCP cannot or should not do the same thing.

Perhaps there is no practical way to change this and those in the EU time zones will have an unfair advantage forever.

I guess my real point is that because of the time zone they choose to live in or were born into gives one certain advantages or disadvantages and denying that serves no purpose other than to lie to yourself about it.


The TZ effect is not related to downtime. It is related to when this information goes public. So long as we randomize the announcements, or even make them rotate (e.g. the next one is say Eastern USTZ, then the one after that is Central TZ, then Mountain TZ, the Pacific TZ, etc. this way everyone gets a shot at taking advantage of changes to the game that affect the markets) then downtime becomes largely irrelevant. Market participants take in information as soon as possible and act on it. Either they cancel buy orders, put up new ones, or even go and buy up existing sell orders. This affects the price which in turn tells other market participants information like go mine more, mine less, put up a POS to compress ore, and that last one will send signals to people who do PI do start making more POS fuel block inputs if enough POS go up to drive up the price of fuel blocks. Prices contain information, information from these announcements and what is going on in game. As new information becomes available, speculators will incorporate that information into their behavior and thus the new resulting prices will contain the new information as well.

People will start complaining that pacific tz got a better announcement than au tz who got a better assignment than EU and oh god, Eastern US Tz NEVER gets a GOOD announcement in 3 years blah blah blah.

Randomize, don't rotate.


Problem with randomization is that there is nothing from a given TZ getting 2 or more announcements which would lead to conspiracy theories and complaints as well.

Maybe it is randomized, but the previous TZ "winner" is excluded from the next announcement. That way there is zero possibility any TZ winning 2x in a row. No winning 2x in a row, no winning 3x, etc. either.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#83 - 2015-05-06 17:45:06 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Problem with randomization is that there is nothing from a given TZ getting 2 or more announcements which would lead to conspiracy theories and complaints as well.

Maybe it is randomized, but the previous TZ "winner" is excluded from the next announcement. That way there is zero possibility any TZ winning 2x in a row. No winning 2x in a row, no winning 3x, etc. either.


Basically.

truly random must keep all in the pool. Going basic 3 TZ (asia/oceanic, US, Euro) every pull is 1/3 chance.

Then to be fair you get nit picky to create more headaches. I in asia should not be in the oceanic pool even, nor should New Zealand be lumped in with Asia to be fair to them. New Zealand is a few hours ahead. Our prime times a bit different. Same as me to Australia (and new Zealand to Australia as well....see this get deep real fast lol?).

Slippery slope here really the take away. But lets have it....now the pool is say 10 slots. Every random spot to be true random would be a say 1/10 chance.

Now for fun with statistics....go find a way to do RNG limited range with set slot numbers and run for say even 100 runs. One will see distribution curves where even random some will be favored. In data analysis this is to be expected. As an aspiring data scientist I accept my numbers get me what they get me. Problem with eve is.....if some US time slot for whatever reason gets a bigger bump on that distribution curve....the cries of dev favoritism will surface. Quickly.


that and like I covered randomization needs personnel to cover. the whole writer-editor-webmaster-it slave bit. timing this in some way to release with no one there....its not only sending murphy an invite, its offering punch and pie to make sure he comes.

I know this well....I have not had a "normal" work schedule in weeks with my IT gig. Hell I started 0130 my time for an event that should go smoothly but.....today could be the day crap happens. enough "higher ups" involved this cannot happen so my (un)happy ass here. My normal start time is supposed to be 0730 for frame of reference.
Vash Bloodstone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#84 - 2015-05-06 18:08:20 UTC
Normally, I don't say anything, but my thoughts on this topic:

Its true that trading in the market is inherently risky and should not be interfered by CCP. However, this is a clear case where CCP intervention resulted in negative results for a number of people who lost billions of ISK.

The "solution" to this is simple, CCP should never give out items to players that can be sold or bought on the market. If you don't support positive measures taken by CCP to protect people, how can you support negative interference?

The thing to keep in mind about the market is that the only way that Items can be created is through the efforts of players. No one except CCP has the power to create Items instantly with the push of a button. Therefore, the most fair thing to do is stop the giveaway of free items. However, if CCP insists on giving away items, then the only thing I can think of to help would be to give away items that can neither be sold or bought. Or maybe just through contracts or somethings.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#85 - 2015-05-06 18:30:53 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Problem with randomization is that there is nothing from a given TZ getting 2 or more announcements which would lead to conspiracy theories and complaints as well.

Maybe it is randomized, but the previous TZ "winner" is excluded from the next announcement. That way there is zero possibility any TZ winning 2x in a row. No winning 2x in a row, no winning 3x, etc. either.


Basically.

truly random must keep all in the pool. Going basic 3 TZ (asia/oceanic, US, Euro) every pull is 1/3 chance.

Then to be fair you get nit picky to create more headaches. I in asia should not be in the oceanic pool even, nor should New Zealand be lumped in with Asia to be fair to them. New Zealand is a few hours ahead. Our prime times a bit different. Same as me to Australia (and new Zealand to Australia as well....see this get deep real fast lol?).

Slippery slope here really the take away. But lets have it....now the pool is say 10 slots. Every random spot to be true random would be a say 1/10 chance.

Now for fun with statistics....go find a way to do RNG limited range with set slot numbers and run for say even 100 runs. One will see distribution curves where even random some will be favored. In data analysis this is to be expected. As an aspiring data scientist I accept my numbers get me what they get me. Problem with eve is.....if some US time slot for whatever reason gets a bigger bump on that distribution curve....the cries of dev favoritism will surface. Quickly.


that and like I covered randomization needs personnel to cover. the whole writer-editor-webmaster-it slave bit. timing this in some way to release with no one there....its not only sending murphy an invite, its offering punch and pie to make sure he comes.

I know this well....I have not had a "normal" work schedule in weeks with my IT gig. Hell I started 0130 my time for an event that should go smoothly but.....today could be the day crap happens. enough "higher ups" involved this cannot happen so my (un)happy ass here. My normal start time is supposed to be 0730 for frame of reference.


No, sampling with and without replacement can give you random samples, just depends on what you are trying to achieve with your sample. In this case, we are not trying to create a sample, but to prevent people from excessively benefitting from CCP announcements. If you "win" the announcement at time T you are not going to be in the drawing for time T+1, but will be in in Time T+2. And nothing stops people from in any timezone from trying to benefit from announcements.

And the probability of winning 3 times in a row with 3 Super TZs would be (1/3)^3 or about 3.7%. So if that happens you have the headache of people bitching and whining endlessly on the forums until the next announcement...and hopefully they will not win again which at that point could happen with probability 1/3.

I'd say, make it more super TZs and the last winner is excluded from the next lottery. It will prevent even the appearance of impropriety.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#86 - 2015-05-06 18:36:31 UTC
Vash Bloodstone wrote:
Normally, I don't say anything, but my thoughts on this topic:

Its true that trading in the market is inherently risky and should not be interfered by CCP. However, this is a clear case where CCP intervention resulted in negative results for a number of people who lost billions of ISK.

The "solution" to this is simple, CCP should never give out items to players that can be sold or bought on the market. If you don't support positive measures taken by CCP to protect people, how can you support negative interference?

The thing to keep in mind about the market is that the only way that Items can be created is through the efforts of players. No one except CCP has the power to create Items instantly with the push of a button. Therefore, the most fair thing to do is stop the giveaway of free items. However, if CCP insists on giving away items, then the only thing I can think of to help would be to give away items that can neither be sold or bought. Or maybe just through contracts or somethings.



CCP has a vested interest in the economy in Eve, so periodic interventions are not only going to be happening it is probably good. So the notion that CCP will not be intervening is just not feasible or reasonable.

As for giveaways and the market, why is there a problem. You keep saying it isn't "fair", how is it not "fair"?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Vash Bloodstone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#87 - 2015-05-06 20:19:52 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:


CCP has a vested interest in the economy in Eve, so periodic interventions are not only going to be happening it is probably good. So the notion that CCP will not be intervening is just not feasible or reasonable.

As for giveaways and the market, why is there a problem. You keep saying it isn't "fair", how is it not "fair"?



Yes, you are right in a way, the CCP giveaways have been good for some people, but at the expense of other people. Mainly, those who saved, worked or found the items in question.


A basic economic principle is this: the more you have of something, the less valuable it is. Normally, in a "free" economy, the supply and demand of goods naturally fluctuate. Keep in mind, that if someone wanted to flood the market with a large supply of something and devalue it, they would have to put in a lot of Isk and effort to do so. CCP on the other hand, has the incredible power to flood the market with infinite amount of items. If any player had this power, it would be obvious how unfair that would be.

For example, if I put in the effort to Build 100 T3 cruisers, only to find out that CCP is giving away a free T3 cruiser to everyone, then all my effort would of gone to waste. And this is obviously unfair since CCP can just create T3 cruisers out of thin air, while I cant. There are two ways to make this fair, either give me the ability to create T3 cruisers out of thin air, or just have CCP not give away free T3 cruisers!

And the principle is the same with these CA-3 and CA-4 Implants. Even if only a few people got screwed, they were screwed unfairly.


TerminalSamurai Sunji
Perkone
Caldari State
#88 - 2015-05-06 20:23:16 UTC
Zafrena Tyrleon wrote:

It doesn't necessarily solve a problem with when things are announced so much as prevent other timezones from being completely screwed due to a seismic market shift that they are unable to respond to.

These announcements should happen during downtime, and all buy and sell orders relating to the items should be stripped from the market during maintenance.


+1

I do feel sorry for the people unable to response to such a major announcement.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#89 - 2015-05-06 20:41:55 UTC
Vash Bloodstone wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


CCP has a vested interest in the economy in Eve, so periodic interventions are not only going to be happening it is probably good. So the notion that CCP will not be intervening is just not feasible or reasonable.

As for giveaways and the market, why is there a problem. You keep saying it isn't "fair", how is it not "fair"?



Yes, you are right in a way, the CCP giveaways have been good for some people, but at the expense of other people. Mainly, those who saved, worked or found the items in question.


A basic economic principle is this: the more you have of something, the less valuable it is. Normally, in a "free" economy, the supply and demand of goods naturally fluctuate. Keep in mind, that if someone wanted to flood the market with a large supply of something and devalue it, they would have to put in a lot of Isk and effort to do so. CCP on the other hand, has the incredible power to flood the market with infinite amount of items. If any player had this power, it would be obvious how unfair that would be.

For example, if I put in the effort to Build 100 T3 cruisers, only to find out that CCP is giving away a free T3 cruiser to everyone, then all my effort would of gone to waste. And this is obviously unfair since CCP can just create T3 cruisers out of thin air, while I cant. There are two ways to make this fair, either give me the ability to create T3 cruisers out of thin air, or just have CCP not give away free T3 cruisers!

And the principle is the same with these CA-3 and CA-4 Implants. Even if only a few people got screwed, they were screwed unfairly.



It is not true. People speculated on implant rarity based upon the presumption that they would not be released again. They were wrong and I have little sympathy, especially because useful items were doubtless more expensive than they ought to have been due to hoarding by those same speculators.

The same thing is happening with Geckos and no doubt there will be a sharp correction some time in the future followed by yet more complaints about how unfair it is.

Speculation is risky. That is why it is also rewarding.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#90 - 2015-05-06 21:12:37 UTC
No

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
GankYou
9B30FF Labs
#91 - 2015-05-06 21:19:20 UTC  |  Edited by: GankYou
Zappity wrote:
Vash Bloodstone wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


CCP has a vested interest in the economy in Eve, so periodic interventions are not only going to be happening it is probably good. So the notion that CCP will not be intervening is just not feasible or reasonable.

As for giveaways and the market, why is there a problem. You keep saying it isn't "fair", how is it not "fair"?



Yes, you are right in a way, the CCP giveaways have been good for some people, but at the expense of other people. Mainly, those who saved, worked or found the items in question.


A basic economic principle is this: the more you have of something, the less valuable it is. Normally, in a "free" economy, the supply and demand of goods naturally fluctuate. Keep in mind, that if someone wanted to flood the market with a large supply of something and devalue it, they would have to put in a lot of Isk and effort to do so. CCP on the other hand, has the incredible power to flood the market with infinite amount of items. If any player had this power, it would be obvious how unfair that would be.

For example, if I put in the effort to Build 100 T3 cruisers, only to find out that CCP is giving away a free T3 cruiser to everyone, then all my effort would of gone to waste. And this is obviously unfair since CCP can just create T3 cruisers out of thin air, while I cant. There are two ways to make this fair, either give me the ability to create T3 cruisers out of thin air, or just have CCP not give away free T3 cruisers!

And the principle is the same with these CA-3 and CA-4 Implants. Even if only a few people got screwed, they were screwed unfairly.



It is not true. People speculated on implant rarity based upon the presumption that they would not be released again. They were wrong and I have little sympathy, especially because useful items were doubtless more expensive than they ought to have been due to hoarding by those same speculators.

The same thing is happening with Geckos and no doubt there will be a sharp correction some time in the future followed by yet more complaints about how unfair it is.

Speculation is risky. That is why it is also rewarding.


Indeed, sistah. Paper valuations, papier profits and bubbles are just that - pop.

Four bloody billion ISK for 1.5% more Shield and an increase of 1.5% in speed... AND PEOPLE PAID FOR IT. Big smile

Tech 2 BPOs come to mind, but let us not beat a dead horse that is selling for 13-yearly profits on average per BPO. Blink

...And they all crave one thing - ISK. ¤

[WTS] ME10 / TE20 BPOs from Battleships/Cruisers to Fighters, Carriers, Triage/Siege, XL modules & Cap Components
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#92 - 2015-05-06 22:17:41 UTC
Vash Bloodstone wrote:
However, this is a clear case where CCP intervention resulted in negative results for a number of people who lost billions of ISK.


First of all, they did not "intervene", they merely made an announcement of the yearly anniversary gift.

Secondly, even when they do intervene, which they do so very rarely such as dumping Plex on the market, they do not reimburse or compensate anyone. That bears repeating, by the way. Even for Plex, which is basically just money in a can, they do not reimburse or compensate anyone.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Vash Bloodstone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#93 - 2015-05-06 22:48:39 UTC
Zappity wrote:


It is not true. People speculated on implant rarity based upon the presumption that they would not be released again. They were wrong and I have little sympathy, especially because useful items were doubtless more expensive than they ought to have been due to hoarding by those same speculators.

The same thing is happening with Geckos and no doubt there will be a sharp correction some time in the future followed by yet more complaints about how unfair it is.

Speculation is risky. That is why it is also rewarding.



Okay...I think someone here has it in for "speculators." You may not like them, but that is no excuse to treat speculators unfairly, which they were by CCP. At least those effected by this event.



Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

First of all, they did not "intervene", they merely made an announcement of the yearly anniversary gift.

Secondly, even when they do intervene, which they do so very rarely such as dumping Plex on the market, they do not reimburse or compensate anyone. That bears repeating, by the way. Even for Plex, which is basically just money in a can, they do not reimburse or compensate anyone.



Imagine if CCP was a player like everyone else, which they essentially are. What they did was basically give everyone free expensive items. Now, on the surface, this seems great, and for most people it is, because they get a free item they otherwise wouldn't have, but what about those people who had worked long hours to attain those items beforehand? What was once rare and hard to get suddenly became cheap and common. It's an unnatural event. Are we just going to dump on the minority? I want to defend their rights.

We all know that speculating is risky, but were playing a game here and shouldn't we all play by the same rules? There is one guy here who isn't playing by the the same rules and his name is CCP. If I were to travel to Nullsec and get blown up by a CCP guy in a invincible ship, would you say, "oh well." You were traveling in Nullsec, you know it's risky! I would hope not, because while Nullsec is risky, everyone still has to play by the same game rules and mechanics. So, while I might get blown up, at least I should have the expectation that my opponent plays under the same rules as me, i.e. he is not invincible.

Yes, speculation is risky between players, but we as players expect everyone to play by the same rules and mechanics. CCP does not play by the same rules, and when they give away items like this, the result is that a few people get trampled for the sake of the many.

Also, BTW plex is not "money in the can." Its game-time in the can, before you can turn it into ISK, someone had to go out there and earn that ISK somehow. It just doesn't come out of thin-air.
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#94 - 2015-05-06 22:54:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Enya Sparhawk
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Quote:

The market in real life does not have God come down and magically change things, that's what CCP's changes are actually analogous to, a real God intervening in day to day life.


Someone's never been in the market. God comes along to **** with us fairly often, earthquakes, tsunamis, nuclear meltdowns, North Koreans and all that. Heck, if you speculated in ammo, the attempted terrorist attack in Texas just made you a payday.

I guess the government should just halt trading any time something happens that might make anyone lose money?


LOL. I doubt God would have to use 'magic' to change things (I always thought of Him as being more like Gallagher with the Earth being a watermelon)

If you speculated in ammo because of the 'supposed' terrorist attack in Texas (remember that organization intentionally baited them to action), then you are an idiot who deserves to lose money.

(With all of the 'fear' and 'terror' constantly being drilled into the psyche of the American people over the last decade, ammo was never in fear of short supply; I believe they call that market saturation. I wasn't really directing this at you Kaarous, just merely making an observation of your analogy.)

The only other solution is to add an advanced option when creating the original buy/sell orders. Something simple, but similar to a system creating a call or put option on a strike price range for a known specialty item at the time of its creation. Maybe a percentage based calculation.

If the market price falls well below your predetermined strike price range, it cancels. Above, it (noticeably) adjusts and sells either at the new price or the upper limit of the strike price range, which ever is lowest. (Maybe determined during downtime or any period during the day reflected by TZ's) With the latter, you may not necessarily receive full market value for your commodity but you may not get so screwed when unexpected trends or outside influences affect its market price.

I guess the same for buy options but in reverse. (Obviously, limitations would have to be set on separate buy orders pushing each other to their peak strike price by normal processes.)

For all of this, you will have to pay a premium on top of the original order price and taxes (extra 'capital' to be used to fuel NPC market orders; competition).

The goal here is to constantly keep the choice in the players' hands, not just automatically against it.

A plus, you can tie it into the contract system: allow other corps to purchase commodities at a set price where ever you or your corp have buy/sell orders by using the same system of setting a strike price range on it for a given period of time. (ie. one territory gets taken over and you lose your station, alliance markets can still function over a broader spectrum in different regions with very little interference to their original purchasing strategies.)

Of course, this too you would need to pay a premium (or collect it)

I hope this makes sense. I don't really speak business.

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2015-05-07 02:24:47 UTC
In the case of the Genos set, like people have already said that if people put up the BO to turn around and make a profit...well that's just part of the market.

If somene actually had a BO to purchase and use the implants, then they were alredy prepared to pay billions for the 2 implants. Again, I see no lose here. Just because supply suddenly increased doesn't change those previous players' demand for the implant.

I do agree that a lot of the dev blogs should be released strictly at DT. It would be the one redeeming thing the AU/China timezone guys like me get since we lose 30mins of gameplay right in our primetime.....EVERY DAYUgh

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#96 - 2015-05-07 05:28:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Vash Bloodstone wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


CCP has a vested interest in the economy in Eve, so periodic interventions are not only going to be happening it is probably good. So the notion that CCP will not be intervening is just not feasible or reasonable.

As for giveaways and the market, why is there a problem. You keep saying it isn't "fair", how is it not "fair"?



Yes, you are right in a way, the CCP giveaways have been good for some people, but at the expense of other people. Mainly, those who saved, worked or found the items in question.


A basic economic principle is this: the more you have of something, the less valuable it is. Normally, in a "free" economy, the supply and demand of goods naturally fluctuate. Keep in mind, that if someone wanted to flood the market with a large supply of something and devalue it, they would have to put in a lot of Isk and effort to do so. CCP on the other hand, has the incredible power to flood the market with infinite amount of items. If any player had this power, it would be obvious how unfair that would be.

For example, if I put in the effort to Build 100 T3 cruisers, only to find out that CCP is giving away a free T3 cruiser to everyone, then all my effort would of gone to waste. And this is obviously unfair since CCP can just create T3 cruisers out of thin air, while I cant. There are two ways to make this fair, either give me the ability to create T3 cruisers out of thin air, or just have CCP not give away free T3 cruisers!

And the principle is the same with these CA-3 and CA-4 Implants. Even if only a few people got screwed, they were screwed unfairly.


You are so wrong, I am embarassed for you.

Please go out and make CA-3/4's. What? You can't? Well **** your entire argument just fell flat on its face.

WTF, I go watch a movie on Amazon while enjoying some scotch and I come back to a bunch of nonsense and baloney posted by people who think they know about markets.

Zappity wrote:
People speculated on implant rarity based upon the presumption that they would not be released again. They were wrong and I have little sympathy, especially because useful items were doubtless more expensive than they ought to have been due to hoarding by those same speculators.


This is quite correct.

Those people Ripard is holding up as poor, poor victims in this were hoping to make lots of isk. Unfortunately they bet wrongly, and now they have to pay for it. HTFU or GTFO. Are we even playing the same game?

Vash Bloodstone wrote:

Okay...I think someone here has it in for "speculators." You may not like them, but that is no excuse to treat speculators unfairly, which they were by CCP. At least those effected by this event.


Bullcrap. If you are going to be a speculator then you had better be ready to handle the risk. The usual refrain in Eve is, "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose." For the speculator it is, "Don't risk exposure you can't afford to handle." Same Goddamn ****ing principle. So, you need to either decide if you want to play Eve or some other sort of game where the Devs hold your **** for you while you play.

Vash Bloodstone wrote:

Imagine if CCP was a player like everyone else, which they essentially are.


They aren't so your entire argument falls apart right there. No need to read further as it is just stupid sophistry.

However, I did I'm sad to say, keep reading. CCP has done this kind of thing several times in the past. This is NOT unusual. CCP has handed out limited edition implants, drones, and ships. Somewhere I still have an apotheosis shuttle that is worth a ridiculous amount of isk for a shuttle. It is not like these events are completely unheard of. If you are a market speculator then it might be a wise ****ing strategy to Goddamn cancel your buy orders right before Eve's anniversary just in case. Or if you want to take the risk...well HTFU if it doesn't go your way.

And I want to be completely ****ing clear here. I think speculators fulfill an important role in the Eve economy. Hell, I think speculators fulfill an important role in a real economy. They pay attention to information and bring it into markets as soon as possible and help ensure that prices provide the correct price signal.

But even still there is no reason at all to molly coddle speculators. If one or 5 of them get their poop pushed in in the markets, well then they weren't paying close enough attention and they need to learn to do better. Being like Ripard and helping them hold their various appendages is not going to make matters better. Ripard had a good point...but like usual the ding-a-ling didn't realize it. It was the announcement/TZ issue.

And God help us if that booby ever gets elected to the CSM.

FYI, all instances of **** are literally ****. Fill in as you deem appropriate.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#97 - 2015-05-07 07:52:26 UTC
Vash Bloodstone wrote:
Zappity wrote:


It is not true. People speculated on implant rarity based upon the presumption that they would not be released again. They were wrong and I have little sympathy, especially because useful items were doubtless more expensive than they ought to have been due to hoarding by those same speculators.

The same thing is happening with Geckos and no doubt there will be a sharp correction some time in the future followed by yet more complaints about how unfair it is.

Speculation is risky. That is why it is also rewarding.



Okay...I think someone here has it in for "speculators." You may not like them, but that is no excuse to treat speculators unfairly, which they were by CCP. At least those effected by this event.

Um, no. See, I am a speculator myself and have made lots of iskies, most recently a couple of bill on the MWD and Ab changes.

The difference between us is that I do it right and accurately balance risk, reward and cash-in strategies.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#98 - 2015-05-07 11:39:30 UTC
Vash Bloodstone wrote:

but what about those people who had worked long hours to attain those items beforehand?


Are you unaware of where CA 3s and 4s come from?

They didn't work for a damned thing.


Quote:

Yes, speculation is risky between players, but we as players expect everyone to play by the same rules and mechanics.


And you as players should have realized that there was NEVER any guarantee against the further release of those items. Nor should there have been, merely for the sake of some people trying to squeeze out a few more iskies from an "unnatural" (as you would put it) scarcity of a limited edition item.

They gambled, they lost. Working as intended.

The end.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2015-05-07 11:52:42 UTC
Vash Bloodstone wrote:
CCP should never give out items to players that can be sold or bought on the market. If you don't support positive measures taken by CCP to protect people, how can you support negative interference?

So CCP should never reward loyal players with rewards every now and again?
With limited exceptions everything can be bought or sold on the market, and as has been said before. In the case of the Genolution series implants as well as all the other things from the pre-release of the 10th anniversary collection they were not limited edition items and would be re-released again at some time.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#100 - 2015-05-07 12:04:04 UTC
An announcement has to go out at some point, and when it does, someone is going to be in bed, DT included. Are we now suggesting devs stay up at night to wait to press a 'submit' button?

If people put up a buy order for several bil on an implant, that means they want to buy that implant at that price. EVE isnt the kind of game that protects people from themselves.

Speculation is risky.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs