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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2121 - 2015-05-05 14:16:52 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Pidgeon Saissore wrote:
The problem with cynos is they have the imposing presence of the unknown capital or black ops fleet at the other end of it. This almost always gives a huge advantage to the attacker as the cyno pilot can see what he is most likely up against while the defender absolutely can't. That fleet being somewhere instantly while the defender must take time to align and warp is not a reasonably fair mechanic.


It's actually much easier to spot these days with the massive range hit to jumps. Maps stats show people clustering in the range envelope pretty damned quickly and easily.

We would always monitor maps stats and if required, scoot an interceptor over to check out a growing blob.

Whilst I'm sure they exist, any entities I've seen do not have the organisational ability to log in, warp to the bridge and get a jump on within a few minutes notice, the map has ALWAYS betrayed people which I've encountered. Most typically they huddle the bridge for a sustained period as numerous hunter ships are out in space and you never know what they'll find so they need to go at a moments notice.

So very few people use the map stats metadata, I don't understand why - it has saved us countless times.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#2122 - 2015-05-05 14:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Tian Toralen wrote:
New idea: the module is a SOV or large POS module. It can only be used in null-sec and wormholes. The module is expensive, uses the strontium or some other material, has a delay of 15 minutes, and - the most important thing - when activated it does a system wide announcement that it has been activated, then after 1-3 minutes all ships (enemy or not) in system are decloacked.

In this way, the campers, if they are not AFK, can simply re-activate their cloak. You can see this does not hurt the gameplay of covert ops ships or bombers in any way, because of the announcement, it only hurts AFK campers.

If CCP is against doing any activity in EVE while AFK, then I think you can agree with this. Cloaked camping is an activity. The announcement before activation would mean that non-AFK campers or other covert ops ships (bombers) are not affected in any way.

Also it would make owning sov, or a large tower a little more valuable, strategic importance, etc.

(re-post, I opened a new thread, did not know about this one)


Whilst you were directed here from your other thread, you could have read this thread a bit, and the links in the OP, and at least acknowledged the counter arguments to this exact idea.

Tian Toralen wrote:
I know it's not new.

How is it "amazingly powerful"?


You'd have your answer if you read the threads.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#2123 - 2015-05-05 16:43:37 UTC

I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2124 - 2015-05-05 17:48:47 UTC
Tian Toralen wrote:
I know it's not new.

How is it "amazingly powerful"? The delay should be even shorter ~ 10 min. It has an announcement when activated - up to 3 minutes before. Warp your cloaked bombers away, come back in 3 min. An enemy fleet that has the intention of capturing a system - could first destroy the module, that is SOV or anchored on a POS.

Cloaked campers - they should have no problems re-activating their cloak.
Cloaked AFK campers - sorry about them.

The module could even be seen in the overview from any point in the system, so any explorer trying to go afk for a while knows that is not the right system to do that. This module would not mean instant death to cloaked ships. AFK ships still need to be probed down, etc.


The decloaking pulse idea is very, very old. If you go to the OP and go to my collection of AFK cloaking threads you'll see it is a prominently featured "solution".

Not a fan, by and large, because it tends to remove effort. If a guy is cloaked on station and is hit with the pulse he becomes quite easy to kill. Also, when the pulse does fire off, the active player can re-cloak and there isn't much you can do till you can re-activate it again giving the cloaked player free reign until that time.

I'd prefer to have cloaked ships become capable of being scanned. That way even an inattentive active cloaker could be in for a surprise. And the AFK guy is going to wake up in his pod.

And of course, no local, but instead other intel mechanics via the Observatory Array.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Tian Toralen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2125 - 2015-05-05 17:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Toralen
Teckos Pech wrote:

The decloaking pulse idea is very, very old. If you go to the OP and go to my collection of AFK cloaking threads you'll see it is a prominently featured "solution".

Not a fan, by and large, because it tends to remove effort. If a guy is cloaked on station and is hit with the pulse he becomes quite easy to kill.


No. You have not read what I wrote. The pulse would not be immediate, it would be announced ~3 minutes before. Then it will activate and decloak everything. The guy cloaked on the station will have all the time to get safe, or recloak instantly, if he is not afk.

My idea is directed at AFK cloaked campers. If they are not afk, they see the announcement, and when revealed they just cloak again.

I have nothing against cloaked campers, as long as they are not AFK - just parking a ship in a system all day to annoy everyone there. If they actively play- and make the effort to recloak every 10 minutes, and enjoy the game doing that, good for them.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#2126 - 2015-05-05 18:09:38 UTC
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2127 - 2015-05-05 18:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
afkalt wrote:
Pidgeon Saissore wrote:
The problem with cynos is they have the imposing presence of the unknown capital or black ops fleet at the other end of it. This almost always gives a huge advantage to the attacker as the cyno pilot can see what he is most likely up against while the defender absolutely can't. That fleet being somewhere instantly while the defender must take time to align and warp is not a reasonably fair mechanic.


It's actually much easier to spot these days with the massive range hit to jumps. Maps stats show people clustering in the range envelope pretty damned quickly and easily.

We would always monitor maps stats and if required, scoot an interceptor over to check out a growing blob.

Whilst I'm sure they exist, any entities I've seen do not have the organisational ability to log in, warp to the bridge and get a jump on within a few minutes notice, the map has ALWAYS betrayed people which I've encountered. Most typically they huddle the bridge for a sustained period as numerous hunter ships are out in space and you never know what they'll find so they need to go at a moments notice.

So very few people use the map stats metadata, I don't understand why - it has saved us countless times.


In addition to afkalt's points, here are some additional things to consider.

The recent changes to jump drives and fatigue are essentially nerfs to cynos. A cyno in and of itself is uselss and in fact usually detrimental to the pilot deploying it if there is nobody to jump through.

And while cynos might need additional nerfs, noting that the cyno is a force multiplier is an weak and ineffectual argument. It is weak and ineffectual because the cyno was designed specifically to be a force multiplier. It is like saying, the ishtar should be nerfed because it is an ishtar. Or more generally, ship X should nerfed because it is ship X. That line of thinking means all ships should be nerfed into oblivion.

So if you want additional nerfs to cynos, make the case, just don't say "Well....cynos could bring in lots of people!" Yeah, we know...that's the point.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2128 - 2015-05-05 18:16:24 UTC
Tian Toralen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

The decloaking pulse idea is very, very old. If you go to the OP and go to my collection of AFK cloaking threads you'll see it is a prominently featured "solution".

Not a fan, by and large, because it tends to remove effort. If a guy is cloaked on station and is hit with the pulse he becomes quite easy to kill.


No. You have not read what I wrote. The pulse would not be immediate, it would be announced ~3 minutes before. Then it will activate and decloak everything. The guy cloaked on the station will have all the time to get safe, or recloak instantly, if he is not afk.

My idea is directed at AFK cloaked campers. If they are not afk, they see the announcement, and when revealed they just cloak again.

I have nothing against cloaked campers, as long as they are not AFK - just parking a ship in a system all day to annoy everyone there. If they actively play- and make the effort to recloak every 10 minutes, and enjoy the game doing that, good for them.


AFK cloaking can be taken care of with less drastic solutions. Just becoming capable of being scanned would be sufficient. A decloaking pulse that lots of people will park an alt next to and spam the decloak button is not a very appealing solution (Yes, I know it has a 15 minute timer, but as people near the 15 minute mark they'll start spamming the button).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2129 - 2015-05-05 18:25:16 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Pidgeon Saissore wrote:
The problem with cynos is they have the imposing presence of the unknown capital or black ops fleet at the other end of it. This almost always gives a huge advantage to the attacker as the cyno pilot can see what he is most likely up against while the defender absolutely can't. That fleet being somewhere instantly while the defender must take time to align and warp is not a reasonably fair mechanic.


It's actually much easier to spot these days with the massive range hit to jumps. Maps stats show people clustering in the range envelope pretty damned quickly and easily.

We would always monitor maps stats and if required, scoot an interceptor over to check out a growing blob.

Whilst I'm sure they exist, any entities I've seen do not have the organisational ability to log in, warp to the bridge and get a jump on within a few minutes notice, the map has ALWAYS betrayed people which I've encountered. Most typically they huddle the bridge for a sustained period as numerous hunter ships are out in space and you never know what they'll find so they need to go at a moments notice.

So very few people use the map stats metadata, I don't understand why - it has saved us countless times.


Good lord......

The recent changes to jump drives and fatigue are essentially nerfs to cynos. A cyno in and of itself is uselss and in fact usually detrimental to the pilot deploying it if there is nobody to jump through.

And while cynos might need additional nerfs, noting that the cyno is a force multiplier is an weak and ineffectual argument. It is weak and ineffectual because the cyno was designed specifically to be a force multiplier. It is like saying, the ishtar should be nerfed because it is an ishtar. Or more generally, ship X should nerfed because it is ship X. That line of thinking means all ships should be nerfed into oblivion.

So if you want additional nerfs to cynos, make the case, just don't say "Well....cynos could bring in lots of people!" Yeah, we know...that's the point.


I'm not clear where I asked for a cyno nerf, or in fact what your reply has to do with my post at all!!
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2130 - 2015-05-05 22:37:01 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Pidgeon Saissore wrote:
The problem with cynos is they have the imposing presence of the unknown capital or black ops fleet at the other end of it. This almost always gives a huge advantage to the attacker as the cyno pilot can see what he is most likely up against while the defender absolutely can't. That fleet being somewhere instantly while the defender must take time to align and warp is not a reasonably fair mechanic.


It's actually much easier to spot these days with the massive range hit to jumps. Maps stats show people clustering in the range envelope pretty damned quickly and easily.

We would always monitor maps stats and if required, scoot an interceptor over to check out a growing blob.

Whilst I'm sure they exist, any entities I've seen do not have the organisational ability to log in, warp to the bridge and get a jump on within a few minutes notice, the map has ALWAYS betrayed people which I've encountered. Most typically they huddle the bridge for a sustained period as numerous hunter ships are out in space and you never know what they'll find so they need to go at a moments notice.

So very few people use the map stats metadata, I don't understand why - it has saved us countless times.


Good lord......

The recent changes to jump drives and fatigue are essentially nerfs to cynos. A cyno in and of itself is uselss and in fact usually detrimental to the pilot deploying it if there is nobody to jump through.

And while cynos might need additional nerfs, noting that the cyno is a force multiplier is an weak and ineffectual argument. It is weak and ineffectual because the cyno was designed specifically to be a force multiplier. It is like saying, the ishtar should be nerfed because it is an ishtar. Or more generally, ship X should nerfed because it is ship X. That line of thinking means all ships should be nerfed into oblivion.

So if you want additional nerfs to cynos, make the case, just don't say "Well....cynos could bring in lots of people!" Yeah, we know...that's the point.


I'm not clear where I asked for a cyno nerf, or in fact what your reply has to do with my post at all!!


Sorry, was intending to add to your comments...I'll re-word it a bit.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2131 - 2015-05-06 06:12:15 UTC
Don't worry about it :)
Tian Toralen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2132 - 2015-05-06 09:42:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Toralen
Teckos Pech wrote:

AFK cloaking can be taken care of with less drastic solutions. Just becoming capable of being scanned would be sufficient. A decloaking pulse that lots of people will park an alt next to and spam the decloak button is not a very appealing solution (Yes, I know it has a 15 minute timer, but as people near the 15 minute mark they'll start spamming the button).

Not only a 15 minute timer, but also a 3 minute warning before it activates. (Better 10 min and 1 min). It's only against AFKers. If cloaked ships can be scanned down, what use is the cloak then? I use a cloak to be safe, if I can be scanned down I'll just have to warp from one safe to another like any ship with no cloak. What would be the use of the cloak then?
Amstat
ORE-Industries
Silent Infinity
#2133 - 2015-05-06 10:17:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Amstat
hum
Mag's
Azn Empire
#2134 - 2015-05-06 11:03:32 UTC
Amstat wrote:
A little Cloaking exemple and exploite!.

http://i.imgur.com/qvGpbrs.jpg
No cloaking or exploit in that pic, sorry.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#2135 - 2015-05-06 11:05:07 UTC
Tian Toralen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

AFK cloaking can be taken care of with less drastic solutions. Just becoming capable of being scanned would be sufficient. A decloaking pulse that lots of people will park an alt next to and spam the decloak button is not a very appealing solution (Yes, I know it has a 15 minute timer, but as people near the 15 minute mark they'll start spamming the button).

Not only a 15 minute timer, but also a 3 minute warning before it activates. (Better 10 min and 1 min). It's only against AFKers. If cloaked ships can be scanned down, what use is the cloak then? I use a cloak to be safe, if I can be scanned down I'll just have to warp from one safe to another like any ship with no cloak. What would be the use of the cloak then?
Yea we get it. You want yet more intel, on top of an already powerful intel tool. But you don't wish to look at this in a balanced way, just your way.

It's still no.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2136 - 2015-05-06 11:32:37 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Tian Toralen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

AFK cloaking can be taken care of with less drastic solutions. Just becoming capable of being scanned would be sufficient. A decloaking pulse that lots of people will park an alt next to and spam the decloak button is not a very appealing solution (Yes, I know it has a 15 minute timer, but as people near the 15 minute mark they'll start spamming the button).

Not only a 15 minute timer, but also a 3 minute warning before it activates. (Better 10 min and 1 min). It's only against AFKers. If cloaked ships can be scanned down, what use is the cloak then? I use a cloak to be safe, if I can be scanned down I'll just have to warp from one safe to another like any ship with no cloak. What would be the use of the cloak then?
Yea we get it. You want yet more intel, on top of an already powerful intel tool. But you don't wish to look at this in a balanced way, just your way.

It's still no.



WTB the ablity to like posts twice.


I'm going to repost what I mentioned in another thread:


Close local window.
Never be bothered by "campers" again.
???
PROFIT!!!!!!


What you do in those ????...well, that's up to you. I make it work Smile
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#2137 - 2015-05-06 15:38:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Tian Toralen wrote:
The guy cloaked on the station will have all the time to get safe, or recloak instantly, if he is not afk.



Again, if you had read the threads you'd know this is overpowered.

Tian Toralen wrote:
i have nothing against cloaked campers, as long as they are not AFK


And if you know hes not afk you dock up and are untouchable.

if you can tell the difference between an afk cloaker and active one then its broken. If you can see that the cloaker has cloaked up again, you know he is active. This is still giving you perfect intel and is too powerful.

If the cloaker appears in local, you must not be able to distinguish whether he is active or not.

read the threads.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#2138 - 2015-05-06 15:51:59 UTC
Tian Toralen wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

AFK cloaking can be taken care of with less drastic solutions. Just becoming capable of being scanned would be sufficient. A decloaking pulse that lots of people will park an alt next to and spam the decloak button is not a very appealing solution (Yes, I know it has a 15 minute timer, but as people near the 15 minute mark they'll start spamming the button).

Not only a 15 minute timer, but also a 3 minute warning before it activates. (Better 10 min and 1 min). It's only against AFKers. If cloaked ships can be scanned down, what use is the cloak then? I use a cloak to be safe, if I can be scanned down I'll just have to warp from one safe to another like any ship with no cloak. What would be the use of the cloak then?


I don't care about the actual workings to be quite honest, the thing is it reduces effort and is more than is needed. I also think that a cloak should allow some degree of limiting information. If you are in system and your cloak is on, hitting the decloaking pulse could give quite a bit of information to the people already in system, mainly ship type.

So again, no.

As for becoming subject to probes at Fanfest one comment was after a period of time cloaked ships become subject to being probed.

This is actually part of a larger issue of how should players get their intel. Methods that require effort should be favored over those that require little or no effort...within reason. If we wanted to just get rid of AFK cloaking, removing local would be sufficient.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2139 - 2015-05-06 15:56:50 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Tian Toralen wrote:
The guy cloaked on the station will have all the time to get safe, or recloak instantly, if he is not afk.



Again, if you had read the threads you'd know this is overpowered.

Tian Toralen wrote:
i have nothing against cloaked campers, as long as they are not AFK


And if you know hes not afk you dock up and are untouchable.

if you can tell the difference between an afk cloaker and active one then its broken. If you can see that the cloaker has cloaked up again, you know he is active. This is still giving you perfect intel and is too powerful.

If the cloaker appears in local, you must not be able to distinguish whether he is active or not.

read the threads.


Exactly. Not to mention it utterly ***** up offensive cloaking ships giving warp ins for a fleet in a large fleet engagement.

Further more, instantly recloaking is not even possible! Cloak reactivation delay anyone? That's AMPLE time for an interceptor to lock the ship and bye bye cloaky to a hail of enemy fire.


But then, people only ever think of nerfing the stuff that affects them to the ground, right?


I repeat. Minimize local, adapt accordingly. Never cry about cloakers again.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#2140 - 2015-05-06 23:24:33 UTC
Amstat wrote:
A little Cloaking exemple and exploite!.

http://i.imgur.com/qvGpbrs.jpg


Sits with 14 blues in system, refuses to undock against one afk cloaker.

go back to hi-sec, seriously.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs