These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Ships: Fitting and 'role' confusion

Author
Charis Braddock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-05-04 03:05:27 UTC
Hi folks,

Well, I've been here a year, mainly playing the exploration, industry and trading games whilst I find my place in EVE. Looking to take the plunge into PvP soon and hunt for a decent corp for small gang work (I prefer the idea of being more 'involved' with the rest of my gang mates than being a standard 'F1 Monkey', and all of my previous PvP experience in other games has been small groups).

Anyway, whilst browsing Ships & Mods (I think; I've been doing a lot of reading around recently) I saw a comment along the lines of "that's a rubbish fit, the Caracal's an anti-frigate ship". My question to the good folks of this forum is:

How can you tell a ship's 'role' in a fleet/gang by looking at the stats? Upon first inspection, the Caracal (to go with the above example) seems bonused for missiles, but other than that I can't see anything that leaps out at me and says 'anti-frigate', especially compared to, say, the Thorax.

Tim

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2015-05-04 03:25:00 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Short answer: it has to do with experience and what each individual pilot finds each ship most useful at.

Very short answer: it is slightly subjective

Long answer: It has to do with a combination of weighing the stats (innate tank vs innate speed vs innate damage potential) and the pros and cons of each weapon systems.
Moreover, some players find certain stats more appealing and ignore other stats because they don't factor into their specific tactics or playstyle.

For instance... you'll find a more than a few players here who believe that speed is the most important stat in the game... and believe that a ship that can't maintain speed while dealing a "decent" amount of damage is virtually "useless."
Then again... you have the polar opposite where you have players who believe that unless you have "committed" to a fight (see: "brawling") you are not really PvPing.

In the case of the Caracal: because of the Rapid Light Missile Launcher the Caracal can be a VERY potent anti-frigate ship... much more so than most other cruiser-class ships... because of the innate stats of light missiles (which are a frigate class weapon system)
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#3 - 2015-05-04 03:33:13 UTC
it is basically comes down to the performance of rapid light missile launchers vs heavy missiles or heavy assault missiles. And right now RLML are pretty good, where HM and HAMS aren't so good.

just looking at the stats it might not be so apparent, a lot of decisions are made based on the meta, and that says you are more likely to see small stuff than big stuff. Plus the tradeoffs between fitting RLML vs HM/HAMS aren't all that bad and are kinda okay at shooting big stuff too.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Memphis Baas
#4 - 2015-05-04 03:36:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
EDIT: answers above are better than what I had, and from PVP experts.

Missiles take time to get to the target, so in equal-sized cruiser combat, a point-blank blaster Thorax or some other gun ship that can do instant damage up close or at range will probably be preferred to a Caracal with heavy missiles.

On the other hand, for the anti-frigate role (so you can take out tacklers and scouts), most gun cruisers have bonuses to medium guns; if you fit frigate-sized guns you lose the DPS bonus. Thus it's better to bring Caracal with RLML or Vexor / Arbitrator with speedy small drones (and energy neutralizers), or actually use gun-based ships designed for anti-frigate, such as destroyers.
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2015-05-04 05:42:20 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
EDIT: answers above are better than what I had, and from PVP experts.

Missiles take time to get to the target, so in equal-sized cruiser combat, a point-blank blaster Thorax or some other gun ship that can do instant damage up close or at range will probably be preferred to a Caracal with heavy missiles.

On the other hand, for the anti-frigate role (so you can take out tacklers and scouts), most gun cruisers have bonuses to medium guns; if you fit frigate-sized guns you lose the DPS bonus. Thus it's better to bring Caracal with RLML or Vexor / Arbitrator with speedy small drones (and energy neutralizers), or actually use gun-based ships designed for anti-frigate, such as destroyers.


Time to hit target isnt really as big a problem as people say.

Pretend you get onto grid with someone with 50% across the board resists, and you also have 50% ATB.

Pretend your DPS is equal. Pretend rate of fire is equal.

Pretend you locked first and pressed fire 3 seconds before them. You two are now trading hits at the same time, and the cycle time of the weapon is irrelevant, and the latency between with the missile launchers "fire" vs when they hit is irrelevant. Now its just a DPS race, but you can keep angular velocity high and he can't avoid missiles, so you can sig/speed tank more damage.

You win.

The idea of flight time being a hinderance is a non-issue. Even in large fleets, it should be more or less undrstood that you fire one volley at a primary, then fire another volley at a different primary.

Missile are high alpha damage after all. Time to get to target is only a problem for people who have bad tactics, similar to how tracking with weapons is only a problem for people who have bad tactics. Each issue can be solved.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices

Charis Braddock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-05-04 11:43:10 UTC
Ah I see! I thought it was something vital that I was missing from stats alone. At least it's the next most crucial thing; experience! Big smile Time to shoot things and get blown up! For Science!

Many thanks for the replies folks, you are most helpful.

Tim
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#7 - 2015-05-04 12:29:36 UTC
The big advantage of assault missile builds against frigates is that they don't miss. Frigs can reduce the damage by playing sensibly, but unlike with turret ships a competent frig pilot can't just dodge the incoming damage entirely. Since a lot of frigates run builds that don't involve a lot of HP... splat.

That said, nothing wrong with building a Caracal for other things, I use one to run L3 missions occasionally. Probably the comment you saw was a bit of forum/spreadsheet warrior stuff where there's another hull that gives a theoretically higher DPS number for whatever was being discussed, practicality be damned.

That's the downside of a game where outside reading is as big a part of things as with Eve. You see a lot of posts about how lasers are inferior and such because they have broad applicability and all the other systems upstage them in pure spreadsheet-calculated ideal damage terms, for instance. People tend to think that just because there are known formulae and you can plug in numbers to get a maximization problem all the non-maximized answers are useless. This isn't really true, and in fact intentionally building stuff in theoretically non-optimal ways just to mess with people assuming you're doing the usual thing is a major part of PvP (albeit one that backfires a lot).
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-05-04 16:52:21 UTC
If you have some time check out this video which addresses your question about the Caracal and is just in general a nice overview of nano-style small gang piloting.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament

Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#9 - 2015-05-04 17:29:37 UTC
Even before rapid lights were a thing and we had assault launchers instead Caracals still had a reputation for killing frigates. Their combination of decent speed and bonuses to weapons that can effectively apply damage to small hulls always made them good frigate exploders.
Memphis Baas
#10 - 2015-05-04 17:50:51 UTC
And as it's been said, Caracal can have roles other than anti-frigate.

Often, though, fleet commanders make snap decisions based on what the scouts see, and the FC of a frigate roam may see a bunch of cruisers incl. several Caracals and may decide to avoid that enemy, just based on the expectation that they'll be fitted with the popular RLML's.

The outcome of PVP battles in EVE is sometimes predetermined, much like in chess with one side having rook and queen and the other side having just 6 pawns. So part of the PVP experience that you need to learn is recognizing ships and the popular fittings, and what poses a threat to your group vs. what's an easy kill. This EVE University ship list is a good reference and a good place to start to understand the ships (click on each, for recommended fittings and uses). But, it's not even close to what you can get from actual combat participation.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#11 - 2015-05-04 23:17:21 UTC
Lost Greybeard wrote:
The big advantage of assault missile builds against frigates is that they don't miss. Frigs can reduce the damage by playing sensibly, but unlike with turret ships a competent frig pilot can't just dodge the incoming damage entirely. Since a lot of frigates run builds that don't involve a lot of HP... splat.


missiles have a flight time and a velocity, they very well can miss. That said in general a RLML ship provides a pretty decent bubble of frig doom. but for ships near the edge of your projection bubble you very well may not hit. also ships with snakes and links can be faster than your missiles.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#12 - 2015-05-05 00:49:08 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
missiles have a flight time and a velocity, they very well can miss.


Not really under engagement conditions. There's no "under the guns" and there's no miss-message within the actual range.

Things can be further away from you than the de facto range of the missiles, but that's not really the same thing, and frigates especially pretty much have to be in that envelope to do anything to you. If they're flying around 40 clicks away or whatever, you can just shrug and leave, because they aren't tackling you.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2015-05-05 01:35:09 UTC
Ok I know that I am not someone that should be giving PvP advice however from time to time I read about or watch someone doing something with a fit that most people would say is a crap fit and they just do something incredible with it. Along those same lines I've heard of people winning fights specifically because they had a fit that people would not normally think that they had. Not to mention how fleet comp and intel on intended targets can totally change what the "ideal" fit might be.

TL;dr
Just because a ship can do one thing well does not mean that it can't be used with other fits and still perform well or even better in certain situations.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Noragen Neirfallas
Emotional Net Loss
#14 - 2015-05-05 03:19:22 UTC
I'd just like to add that caracals are also amazing cruiser killers and in a brawl can keep a good range while applying excellent DPS and tanking a large amount. It all depends on fit and situation.

Member and Judge of the Court of Crime and Punishment

Noragens basically the Chribba of C&P - Zimmy Zeta

Confirming that we all play in Noragen's eve. - BeBopAReBop

ISD Buldath favorite ISD

'"****station games" - Sun Tzu' - Ralph King Griffin

Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#15 - 2015-05-05 05:54:33 UTC
Lost Greybeard wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
missiles have a flight time and a velocity, they very well can miss.


Not really under engagement conditions. There's no "under the guns" and there's no miss-message within the actual range.

Things can be further away from you than the de facto range of the missiles, but that's not really the same thing, and frigates especially pretty much have to be in that envelope to do anything to you. If they're flying around 40 clicks away or whatever, you can just shrug and leave, because they aren't tackling you.


An extremely fast interceptor can outrun heavy missiles while orbiting in tackle range. It's a very pretty sight, you see this cloud of missiles orbiting your target lagging just slightly behind you. I think you need to go about 5km/s. Even if you're slower than that, if missiles do hit your speed means they do practically no damage, due to the way missile damage calculations work.
Rammel Kas
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2015-05-05 10:11:00 UTC
My advice: Don't go alone. Join your group of choice first. They will often have the hands-on experience to help you out. Some of them even simply give you the initial ship.
Charis Braddock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2015-05-05 19:20:10 UTC
Yeah, it wasn't the Caracal per se that I was wondering about, though as a missile user I'm always up for seeing how to improve my fittings! Thanks for the vid-link Cara! It was more a general question of 'what am I missing?' Based on the answers it seems to be experience, rather than just something in the stats that I'm not seeing.

Tim
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#18 - 2015-05-06 01:24:08 UTC
Trevor Dalech wrote:
Lost Greybeard wrote:
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
missiles have a flight time and a velocity, they very well can miss.


Not really under engagement conditions. There's no "under the guns" and there's no miss-message within the actual range.

Things can be further away from you than the de facto range of the missiles, but that's not really the same thing, and frigates especially pretty much have to be in that envelope to do anything to you. If they're flying around 40 clicks away or whatever, you can just shrug and leave, because they aren't tackling you.


An extremely fast interceptor can outrun heavy missiles while orbiting in tackle range. It's a very pretty sight, you see this cloud of missiles orbiting your target lagging just slightly behind you. I think you need to go about 5km/s. Even if you're slower than that, if missiles do hit your speed means they do practically no damage, due to the way missile damage calculations work.



This is correct. You see the same thing incidentally with drones - light drones pretty much never* miss but they can't catch interceptors with MWDs at all. Kinda hilarious to watch actually - an Ares flying in circles while drones keep trying and failing to reach it.






* never say never, but their tracking is excellent and their signature resolution is too, they can miss the very smallest ships sometimes like a Prospect with Halo implants and -sigrad links

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#19 - 2015-05-07 05:03:23 UTC
Trevor Dalech wrote:
Lost Greybeard wrote:
Not really under engagement conditions. There's no "under the guns" and there's no miss-message within the actual range.

Things can be further away from you than the de facto range of the missiles, but that's not really the same thing, and frigates especially pretty much have to be in that envelope to do anything to you. If they're flying around 40 clicks away or whatever, you can just shrug and leave, because they aren't tackling you.


An extremely fast interceptor can outrun heavy missiles while orbiting in tackle range. It's a very pretty sight, you see this cloud of missiles orbiting your target lagging just slightly behind you. I think you need to go about 5km/s. Even if you're slower than that, if missiles do hit your speed means they do practically no damage, due to the way missile damage calculations work.


heh, granted this is vs NPCs, but I'm in the middle: http://i.imgur.com/R0y7sIH.png ~5km/s was my max speed in that setup, I was going 3-4 something when I took most of that series of screenshots.

all 5 caracal and the base speed on CN light missiles is 8.4km/s, mostly lv4 skills and it drops to 7.35km/s. and yes that means a lot of the time you will be hitting the ships you are firing at. But there are times you will be more than 50-60km from something you want to shoot, but you won't be able to hit as that is just out of range. Or something might look in range but is moving too fast to hit.

all that is why the mordus bonuses are so awesome, 16.8km/s light missiles out of a garmur or orthrus. although as to the earlier point I'm not sure how much damage they actually do thanks to damage reductions due to speed. EFT seems to suggest ~40% damage to a 7km/s frig, and that drops to ~30% with links (speed goes up to 9km/s, and a sig drop), but hey it is outrunning most missiles at that point.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#20 - 2015-05-07 11:22:32 UTC
A large amount of "that is a **** fit" is mostly idiots regurgitation current meta or doctrine fits they have been given. ie they don't do any fitting themselves. To know if a fit is good or bad you have to know what context it is going to be used. And even then, i don't listen to those guys. I listen to things like " Yea would probably never use that ship without a MWD really.. you need to have some range control" or "you really need more buffer so you can catch reps" ... ie constructive pointers about the fit and the context where that matters.

Ships can and are used in many different configurations and often times the theory crafted comes up with something completely new, yet would have worked in the game years ago. Solo players often try random stuff. Often very hard to make work fits even, but when they do. Its a boss fit. (love my dual rep rifter. Tanks like a boss, if you time it all perfectly and keep an eye on the alpha, it has zero buffer)

But sometimes fits really are just rubbish. Dual tanking. Dual ranged weapons. Not using the ships bonus is often a sign that perhaps a different hull would work better. I have seen fits where even mid slots were empty in a BS and it was running mediums guns.. Or even fits where you have a good idea of how its going to work.. and 5 secs into an engagement you realize.. yea this fit is just **** :D.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.