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Petition: Remove Slaves from the SCC Markets.
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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#201 - 2015-05-01 20:09:11 UTC
Oh... right. After so many months thinking about it, I eventually mixed up both... That is embarrassing...

In any case, that does not change my reasoning, although I would prefer to see the SCC directly barring the access to slaves as commodities since it would obviously prove to be a lot less efforts to act on the other side where there is only one entity (the SCC) instead of millions of independent traders (Holders, slavers, etc).
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#202 - 2015-05-02 00:36:33 UTC

It is better for slaves to be listed. How else would other free people buy them and free them? Not listing them on the market would not change the market demand for them one bit. Not listing them would take away access from liberators who would be barred from participating in an underground slave black market.

At least this way the transactions are taxed, with taxes funneled to stations and infrastructure in systems we all use.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#203 - 2015-05-02 01:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Sibyyl wrote:
It is better for slaves to be listed. How else would other free people buy them and free them? Not listing them on the market would not change the market demand for them one bit. Not listing them would take away access from liberators who would be barred from participating in an underground slave black market.


This is another reason why they shouldn't be listed.

The slave trade should be conducted only in planetside Amarrian markets, between Holders and licensed slavers. No commoner or foreigner has any right to purchase slaves.
Yonis Vudori
Nefantar Research Agency
#204 - 2015-05-02 15:56:10 UTC
Signed.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#205 - 2015-05-02 16:40:08 UTC
Cakzad Arcashiri wrote:

I will not go into a full on lecture, but basically this is heresy and should've been acted on by the Amarrian Goverment by now.



There are a great many heretical things the Amarrian Government should have acted on by now and haven't.

Keep in mind the differences in the laws regarding slave ownership between the Empire proper and the Khanid Kingdom. While non-Minmatar slaves are a minority, they are fully allowed. Including Amarr and Khanid (usually prisoners, people who talk during a holo and other undesirables). I don't see His Majesty allowing those laws to be changed in Khanid any time soon.

I don't think the Empire can have it both ways. You can't tell Group A it is ok to do the thing and tell Group B they can't do the thing without Group B getting bent out of shape over it. Group B then generally does the thing anyway. The scientific term for this process is "human nature." Slavery is an all or nothing issue. Either open the trade wide like the Khanid model or end it completely.


"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#206 - 2015-05-02 17:08:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Group B in such an instance are heretics and should be punished for their transgressions. The fact that criminals like yourself exist and will break laws is not a reason to remove laws. Laws must be made and enforced, and those who break them must be punished.

The open model you support rejects God. It rejects the divine right of Holders by allowing those of impure blood to deal in slaves. It is a faithless model that should never be allowed to translate to Amarr. Only Holder families are of proven purity, wisdom, and responsibility to be entrusted with the ownership of slaves. This is as God has decreed through Scripture. Slavery as an institution only works in the Empire, under the traditional laws that have governed it for thousands of years. Any other group that practices it is immoral and corrupt.

And there are non-Minmatar slaves in the Empire, too, Mokk. The Kingdom is not unique in that.
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#207 - 2015-05-02 18:37:53 UTC
The premise that Her Excellency founds her call to action on is of such a great severity that I am incredibly reluctant to support the proposition, as noble in its aims as it is, without firm evidence. If the Imperial agencies, like the Civic Court, are facilitating the sale of slaves to non-Holder individuals in the absence of the adequate licensing and issuing of Custodial Servitude Contracts then we must accept the existence of gross negligence, or conspiracy to subvert the Faith and Imperial Law, which would involve those at the highest echelons of the government up to, and including, members of the Privy Council. The seriousness of these accusations cannot be overstated or exaggerated.

While those Faithful who have given affirmations of support for the general principle of Her Excellency's statements certainly are right to wish to prohibit the sale of slaves in a manner which violates Imperial Law and the tenets of our Faith I think that they should be mindful that the specifics of this proposal allege serious crimes (of neglectful oversight, intentional unlawful activity, or both) against officials throughout the institutions of government reaching all the way to those that serve our Empress as Her closest and most trusted advisers and servants.

As such it seems reckless and irresponsible to suppose Imperial agencies and their counterparts in the Kingdom and the Mandate are engaging in high crimes until such time as there is an official confirmation of this conspiracy issued by a source empowered to make such statements by Her Imperial Majesty's Government.

"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#208 - 2015-05-02 19:33:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Your lordship Ibrahim,

This is not something secret or hidden. It is a public sell order produced by the Civic Court (and as well by the Ammatar Consulate). Note in that image that I, a commoner, was able to purchase a slave from Civic Court through that buy order with no strings attached.

Additionally, I must humbly offer you a correction, as this thread is not an accusation of criminal activity. Currently, these sales are entirely legal, due to SCC policies. This was stated in the past by Grand Inquisitor Ohrud Omel.

The fact that they are legal by unethical international trading laws is precisely the problem.

It is the call of this measure that Amarr take a stand against the SCC's policies, as these policies act against Scriptural law and the divine right of Holders. While it is not a crime against current international trading laws, it is a crime against God. This is something that should not be legal, and the request we are making here is for Amarr to enforce traditional Scriptural laws over liberal SCC policies, and remove all sell orders of slaves by entities like the Civic Court from the SCC market.

It would be likewise appropriate for the SCC to remove the slave listing from the market list entirely, because only Amarr Holders have the proven purity, wisdom, and responsibility to care for slaves, but I for one have no faith in the secular administration of the SCC to actually make such a change as they favor lining their pockets over moral and ethical concerns.
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#209 - 2015-05-02 23:47:40 UTC
Lt. Kernher,

I have the highest respect for your opinion, on any matter but particularly on this one. My instinct to defer to your good judgement, however, is prevented by a fundamental difference we seem to have on the matter. If it is maintained that the Civic Court and similar organizations are issuing contracts for slave services and slave transport in accordance with Imperial Law and while being true and faithful to treaties agreed to by the Imperial Government then, from my point of view, this matter should be closed. The only way this petition makes sense to me is if activities are happening in contravention of the law.

If these transactions occur within a legal framework endorsed by the ministries and officials of the Imperial Government then there is no legitimate claim to have the practice abolished on Scriptural grounds. At least certainly not by means of a public petition. To do so is to directly challenge the interpretation abilities of Her Imperial Majesty's Government and, by extension, Her Imperial Majesty Herself. I appreciate the intentions of the Faithful in their support and feel that each has in his or her heart the best and most noble intentions. However, a policy carried about by Her Imperial Majesty's Government is not open to review or approval of the public.

There is not one among us who has the Scriptural authority or Divine endorsement to make the claim that the Throne and Its ministers have erred in interpreting the Scriptures. Only the Highest Authority has the right to question this practice and when and if She decides to do so it should have nothing to do us.

This is not a democracy. We do not question, we do not criticize. We obey.

"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#210 - 2015-05-02 23:52:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
I am not making an interpretation, my lord. I am stating a fact. The divine rights of Holders are spelt out in Scriptures, and they make very clear that among those rights is the sole permanent ownership of slaves.
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#211 - 2015-05-03 00:02:34 UTC
And I am sure that the Civic Court and other Imperial entities that engage in this practice are empowered by the Throne to lend the services of slaves, via the markets, in the same way as an individual holder may do with his or her own stock. I am not myself familiar with the intricacies of the contract law employed by the Civic Court but I am confident that the appropriate licenses and CSCs are attached to the slaves which are within their power to trade through the markets, SCC and domestic. Which is why in my initial statement I assumed that the petition must be alleging conspiracy to sell slave services without the proper authorization and suggested appropriate caution in leveling such grievous claims against the Imperial Government.

"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given." - Book of Reclaiming 22:13
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#212 - 2015-05-03 00:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
What you say above is why I have said that it is a loophole. It is an indecent attempt at exploiting foreign markets to bypass religious laws. It is the effort of certain liberal houses and organizations that put wealth over piety and see the Scriptures not as something to be obeyed as strict doctrine but instead to be evaded and deceived in whatever way makes them the most profit.

This has left Holder rights eroded, our slave markets depleting, and countless slaves butchered by heretics or stolen by liberators. All so that a few people can line their pockets.

The Empire serves God, not our wallets. These policies must be changed. Amarr laws must be built on Scripture, not foreign kredit.
Norrin Ellis
Doomheim
#213 - 2015-05-03 00:21:25 UTC
Signed.

CEO, Venture Racing

Manager, EVE Online Hold'Em
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#214 - 2015-05-03 02:50:26 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
I am not making an interpretation, my lord. I am stating a fact. The divine rights of Holders are spelt out in Scriptures, and they make very clear that among those rights is the sole permanent ownership of slaves.



You are correct.

So how is it that the "group B model" in Khanid is not only allowed to exist, but was ratified by a treaty signed by the Empire and King Khanid II? Are you saying that the Empire went against Scripture?

I've been going through the treaties...did you know that Khanid isn't even bound by Empress Jamyl's Decree? It has no power in the Kingdom, leaving Khanid to keep their slaves of 9th and greater generation. While the religious leaders in the Kingdom still espouse the concept of slavery as a form of putative enlightenment, many consider this little more than lip service.

But Khanid is a part of the Empire. Khanid is a part of the same treaties and trade agreements that every government signed with CONCORD. This was all decided a long time ago, by people of greater rank and deeper understanding of Scripture than you or I.

Ergo, CONCORD and the Empire are not going to even look at this petition. They would just as soon abolish all slavery.

Now can we end this farce and turn our attention to more important issues?


"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#215 - 2015-05-03 09:58:21 UTC
Politics is the art of the possible. Khanid II has been quite clear about expanding his 'stock' of slaves. I understand some people make good money selling POWs, criminals and the like to the more unscrupulous of the Khanid slaver rings.

I'm sure Jamyl would exert her will, if she thought Khanid would take the public order hit that denying his Lords slaves would cause him. But he can't, so he won't, so she won't. That doesn't speak to what anybody wants.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#216 - 2015-05-03 12:43:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
So how is it that the "group B model" in Khanid is not only allowed to exist, but was ratified by a treaty signed by the Empire and King Khanid II? Are you saying that the Empire went against Scripture?


The Empire does not intervene in other sovereign nations' internal affairs under current international treaties. The Kingdom is still an independent nation, we are just allied. If the Kingdom did fully rejoin the Empire again, then its improprieties would be purged.

Quote:
Now can we end this farce and turn our attention to more important issues?


The only farce here is that an Angel Cartel thug like you is trying to defend unregulated slave trading on the SCC so that you can continue to have easy access to stock for your immoral practices. You try to shroud your loyalties by speaking from a Kingdom perspective, but you are a criminal and you taint the name of your house with your activities. Your opposition to this measure only gives it more weight.
Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
#217 - 2015-05-03 20:35:45 UTC
Mrs Kernher petition that you are pushing so vigorously can lead to some very undesirable results, it saddens me you do not see that or maybe you do and all of this petition fuss is just a facade and smokescreens covering the true goal.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#218 - 2015-05-03 21:05:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
How dare you accuse this of being a facade. What undesirable results could possibly arise from going back to the trade restrictions that we maintained without issue before the SCC was spawned? What was wrong with the original trading laws, like the Gallente-Amarr Free Trade Agreement? Under those policies, trade goods were strictly controlled and only Holders and licensed representatives were allowed to engage in business with foreign traders. Those policies preserved our cultural values, they upheld our religious principles. The liberal economics of the last few decades have ruined all of that. Maybe Amarr is making more money as a result, but it is the Deceiver's money.

Forgive me for actually caring about our traditions. Forgive me for asking that Scriptural laws be held above secular foreign ones. Forgive me for actually caring about what happens to the people I came from.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#219 - 2015-05-03 21:24:50 UTC
Ah, Kernher, Kernher...

Your naïveté is refreshing.

As you are, I was.

As I am, you will be.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#220 - 2015-05-03 21:25:07 UTC
On the one hand, this movement would reduce the amount of targets we need to hit to go about freeing our people and keep slaves out of the hands of jack wagons like Naupilius. On the other hand we wouldn't be able to free them directly from the market, those slave convoys are going to get higher security, and I don't really care for the thought of encouraging your misguided "divine right" to own people..... so is half a signature sufficient?

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.