These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Test Server Feedback

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page123Next page
 

Brain in a Box on Singularity

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#21 - 2015-04-29 17:12:01 UTC
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
Will modifier format (defined via dgmexpression tree or modifierInfo of effect) change with dogma rewrite?
Will filtering functions change (i'm talking about AddLocationModifier and alike)? If yes, how exactly attribute calculation process will work 'under the hood' - in the terms of how modifiers are defined, how they determine parameters of change (e.g. value and operator which should be used for modification), how target attribute(s) are accessed?

I'm asking because during FF'13 (during keynote?) Veritas showed couple of slides which described how attributes are handled in current dogma implementation (imo presenting it in a way to make it look confusing) and then showing visually 'simpler' way to do it which doesn't answer many questions, particularly how exactly target attribute is found.

ps Also i don't understand what BiaB has to do with making ganglinks "on-grid", as far as i understand it's responsibility of filtering function to find entities for modification (e.g. find ships within certain radius from booster and then all modules belonging to certain group on them). Some details on this would also be cool to have.



watch the rewiting dogma from ff15 and you will get a nice picture for most of your questions

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-04-29 17:45:48 UTC
Ohhhhhh, this is good news.

Moving a big fleet was always extremely annoying, especially when big meant 70 players that caused 30 percent tidi for like 20 seconds on each jump.

Should also make fights smoother when new fleets enter a system or when lots of people die to bombers.

Great to see this finally happening :)
Kadesh Priestess
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#23 - 2015-04-29 17:57:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadesh Priestess
DaReaper wrote:
watch the rewiting dogma from ff15 and you will get a nice picture for most of your questions
You probably mean ff14 (can't find ff15 on ccp's youtube). Yes, i watched it, however it made me to ask even more questions:

- Why dogma can't handle literal numbers, while dgmexpression trees were clearly built with ability to support it? From the tree format it seems that in the place of the expression where you want to fetch value for modification (usually 2nd argument of 'modificator' operands like AIM/RIM or ALGM/RLGM) you can use operand 27 (DEFINT) instead of operand 22 (DEFATTRIBUTE). I have no idea if it ever worked in dogma, but iirc there used to be weird unused effects which used it. (answered by ff'15 dogma changes presentation)
- Veritas' hobgoblin example has more to do with reorganization of how effect trees are organized rather than actual dogma (from my side it looks it's entirely possible to have unified drone damage multiplier on character, then drone will just take this single value from character and apply it to drone; such approach may break current organization of stacking penalties in some edge cases though). Use of 'literals' seems to be completely unrelated here, because value still has to be taken somewhere, unless it's constant. (answered by ff'15 dogma changes presentation)
- His talk about decoupling attributes from items is the same what he said at ff'13, hence my question. Currently we use various filter functions (based on several parameters - location, item group, required skills of item, owner) to find modules we need to modify. After decoupling, how will medium energy locus rig find optimal attribute on my laser guns (and JUST on my laser guns)? It implies huge changes to filtering functions or whole organization of dogma's data model. I do not understand how it's planned to implement such decoupling and it's kind of important question for me.
- He mentioned that something is implemented from scratch. I've got impression that he meant fleet bonus system implementation. No details again.
Phyridean
Derp Shipping Co.
#24 - 2015-04-29 18:53:07 UTC
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
watch the rewiting dogma from ff15 and you will get a nice picture for most of your questions
You probably mean ff14. Yes, i watched it, however it made me to ask even more questions:


No, he means Fanfest 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT6ddbIJRtg
Kadesh Priestess
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#25 - 2015-04-29 18:58:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Kadesh Priestess
Phyridean wrote:
Kadesh Priestess wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
watch the rewiting dogma from ff15 and you will get a nice picture for most of your questions
You probably mean ff14. Yes, i watched it, however it made me to ask even more questions:


No, he means Fanfest 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT6ddbIJRtg
Thank you, i tried to find ff'15 playlist on ccp channel but didn't manage to, probably they were hidden behind 'more...' button.

edit: well, it indeed explains the 'data model' of new dogma, however it doesn't explain how effects/modifiers are defined to work within it - i.e. how target attributes are located (or rather, how graph for each modification is composed).
CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
#26 - 2015-04-29 21:09:54 UTC
We're not touching the dogma data model, just how we process it.

CCP Prism X

Programmer on Team Gridlock & Expert Ranter
TijsseN
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-04-29 21:10:49 UTC
I attended the FF2014 presentation about this concept, and basically it will optimize the server side of the game so that transitioning between systems is going smoother. This is actually much needed in 0.0 since 0.0 inhabitants are like real commuters stuck in a traffic jam for most the time when we go to a fight or gank.
Laendra
Universalis Imperium
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2015-04-29 23:37:09 UTC
Holy ****, the cat is dead...or is it alive.
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2015-04-30 11:39:49 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
I've been staring at this topic for almost five minutes thinging about a clever way of saying that I'm not stressing over this.. but I'm way to stressed over this to think clearly. Straight


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCa56Bc8Tm4
Bob Shaftoes
TURN LEFT
#30 - 2015-04-30 12:36:18 UTC
Drone windows will not show correct damage in fitting window , but still apply full damage

Tactical destroyer modes can only be changed from the fitting screen

Mordus ships are unusable ( graphics dont render and modules dont show when you undock )

Hardwirings dont work. A CPU fitting implant will show an increased amount in the fitting screen but does not actually apply the bonus to a ship when you fit the module

Mindlinks are broken but links still work
Liet Ormand
Sons of Bacchus
#31 - 2015-04-30 14:35:15 UTC
It sounds like BIAB is a major effort in coding, congratulations to the whole programming team responsible for what must have been a difficult job.


CCP Habakuk wrote:

Brain in a Box:
On Tranquility all your skills are recalculated each time you jump to a different system and then the skills are re-applied to your ship.



I find this strange, honestly. Is the purpose of recalculation at that time simply because it's likely that many of the numbers change when this transition happens? E.g. fleet bonuses, wormhole system effects, and also changes to the base skills (skill queue items completing)? Does everything get recalculated as opposed to eg. precalculating the effect of modules and rigs in a ship and storing the intermediate result?

I'm guessing the bulk of the CPU effort shifted to BIAB is to perform DB queries for the basic data then a lot of math to apply the formulas?


Just curious :)
Suede
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2015-04-30 21:34:42 UTC
CCP Habakuk wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
Oh god, I'm not sure I wanted to know some of those Dogma implementation details, I would never have guessed it was that bad.

Can we rely on statistics displayed in the client matching their actual performance in game or does that need to be tested too? e.g. if the interface says I have 83% thermal resistance and this matches what I should have on TQ, do I still need to test that I am indeed only receiving 17% of the raw damage from a thermal source?


This is one of the big problems actually. W spend quite some time testing that the information is correct in all places (on the server, in the client internally and in the displayed UI). A good example are the values on drones, which are currently not updated with skills (even on TQ they are only correct in the drone bay and not in space).
But: If you are just helping in the mass test - feel free to ignore these details. If you want to go a bit further with testing: Send us details in bug reports if you assume that something does not match. We have then further tools to poke at the values directly.


What are your plans over the Attributes are you going to remove them as it been talked about,

in the CSM9 Winter Summit Minutes, (read the Minutes here), in the session with Team Size Matters on Day 1, the matter of character attributes was discussed:

Removal of attributes was also mentioned, but the idea is still in quite an early stage. It’s something [CCP Games’ devs] want to do as it’s on the level as learning skills, so that people don’t have to get locked into training skills in a non-optimal order for use, in order to train at the optimal speed. There is still some discussion around what would possibly be done with learning implants (keep them, flat bonus, something else). There are also questions as to what the rate would be with the changes. Ali [Aras] brought up some feedback that some veteran players like the space it gives you to optimize your character, but overall supports removing attributes. There was also the point of learning implants [as a] disincentive [to] PVP, especially in null and WH.
Alpho
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2015-05-01 12:39:52 UTC
Short Feedback:
That's what i get:
http://c2n.me/3h2THTC.jpg
That's what i should get:
http://c2n.me/3h2TOCP.png
That's what i think have happened:
http://c2n.me/3h2TRex.png

SIsi is not applying Virtue (and from 810 imp) bonuses.
Bob Shaftoes
TURN LEFT
#34 - 2015-05-01 14:23:28 UTC
Alpho wrote:
Short Feedback:
That's what i get:
http://c2n.me/3h2THTC.jpg
That's what i should get:
http://c2n.me/3h2TOCP.png
That's what i think have happened:
http://c2n.me/3h2TRex.png

SIsi is not applying Virtue (and from 810 imp) bonuses.


Yeah implants are totally broken currently , including mindlinks
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#35 - 2015-05-01 15:27:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Makari Aeron wrote:
Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it.


BIAB is imo the single biggest change to come to eve since I've been playing. And while what we see is a miniscule fraction of what is going on, I don't doubt that the scope of changes are huge with the potential to break pretty much everything. I have faith in the abilities of Team Gridlock to make this happen.

Let us pray.

Our missiles, who art in launchers, hallowed be thy payload. Thy warhead come, our enemies be done, in nulsec as it is in hisec. Give us this isk Our daily isk, And forgive us our Warp Core Stabs; for we will not forgive those that use them against us. And lead us not into bubbles; But deliver us from scramblers. For thine is the thermal, the explosive, and the kinetic. EM.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Justin Cody
War Firm
#36 - 2015-05-03 08:06:14 UTC
Makari Aeron wrote:
CCP Prism X wrote:
Just to make things a bit more convoluted:

There are certain modifiers that only apply under certain conditions. For an example it makes little sense to waste processing power on contructing the complete attribute state of a missile that is located in the cargohold of a ship that you own but is just chilling in a safespot in the system you are in. You wont be firing that missile anytime soon.

But you could perhaps do a show info on that missile, and that would query all sorts of information for you to show you the correct info. The querying of this information requires the missile to be properly initialized and everything works fine and when you switch to that ship, and load your missile launcher, everything is correct.

But if you do not do the show info then you do not initialize the attribute before moving the missile to the launcher and firing it, because you do not request the attribute value until damage application. This might potentially take a completely different codepath to apply these previously mentioned modifiers. In one case you initialized and applied modifiers, in the other you initialized and had to request modifiers that had already been set up but not applied. If something is broken one codepath but not the other you might now have a different state on the missile just because you didn't show info on the missile before loading it.

So attempting to observe the existence of a problem can be enough to make it go away. But like Habakuk says you shouldn't worry about these things. We worry about these things, I'm just describing the problem because I like saying Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it. It's a silly joke. Carry on! Big smile


Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it.


Can we get that missile as a redeemable/collectible when the feature is released?
Danna Blueblade
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-05-04 09:44:55 UTC
Makari Aeron wrote:
Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it.

Does that mean that the missile is simultaneously exploded and unexploded ordinance until it is observed to be one or the other?
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#38 - 2015-05-04 13:41:53 UTC
This past weekend we (TEST) held our usual AT practice session. This included a skirmish team from another alliance. We found the following:

Skill implants (fitting) were completely non-functional. No bonuses were applied.

High slot modules would spontaneously offline. Typically these were high-fitting requirement modules like remote reps or command links. These modules could not be onlined despite sufficient fitting and cap. We would get the insufficient fitting resources message. Relogging would clear this issue. How do I know?

I personally got disconnected a number of times upon docking or undocking. When I logged back in the above offlined modules were able to be onlined normally.

Other members of our team and the opposing team were also experiencing identical issues.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#39 - 2015-05-05 02:04:00 UTC
Spooky actions in a distance..

I have something that might be of interest to a few more pilots. Everytime your ship is destroyed it leaves you in a zombie-state. The client displays you still in your ship and a new ship is created that cannot be interacted with - your escape pod.

Since your client doesn't 'speak' to the engine anymore, you stay in that zombie-state until that agression time is up and you force a system change via /moveme.

In case of the 'offline' modules, the client 'offlines' your modules when you change your ship in a station and onlines them when you sit in it.
Undocking now changes the states to offline again and your fitting screen in space as online.

Because your fitting is showing them as online, onlining now causes the client to overfit your modules with the same modules twice so they are deactived or at least it appears so.

Doesn't happen with all ships, just some (the ones that require a fitting implant to work).

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
CCP Habakuk
C C P
C C P Alliance
#40 - 2015-05-05 10:53:48 UTC
Thank you all for your help with testing. Pirate

Singularity has now been reverted to be running code very close to TQ. All skill training data of the last few days is gone as part of this (but /copyskills should work again).

CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five 0 | (Team Gridlock)

Bug reporting | Mass Testing
Previous page123Next page