Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I don't complain about destroyers being able to wreck most frigates because cruisers can easily wreck destroyers for not that much more isk. The same cannot be said about battleships against battlecruisers. If battlecruisers were slower than battleships the same way destroyers are slower than cruisers, sure, give them double/triple the guns of cruisers and up their tracking and range by 50%. But that's not the case.

A lot of the comparisons in this thread are incredibly biased and inappropriate for what they're trying to prove. For example earlier in this thread someone complained that an AC Stabber could theoretically solo an Hurricane... they have different bonuses... a more valid comparison would be the rupture, and I've never heard of a competent cane pilot complain about ruptures.

Also unlike the application bonuses of destroyers which primarily affect their ability to kill frigates, buffing the application of battlecruisers not only makes them better at killing cruisers but also lets them **** on destroyers and frigates. Battlecruisers are also sufficiently fast vs battleships that range bonused battlecruisers would be able to dunk close range Battleships as their bonuses take them over the increased base range of large weapons.

You're essentially just shifting the popularity of cruisers onto battlecruisers.

I think saying this is a class issue is generalising the issue. There are actually many cruisers that see very little use even after their rebalance.

Unless significant changes are also made to Battleships, merely making Battlecruisers able to dunk Cruisers will mean Battlecruisers win every engagement with cruisers of the same tech level and cruisers are forced to flee while at the same time, Battlecruisers have the speed to run away from Battleships. I.e. they can do more than Destroyers currently can and you've overbuffed them.

Seriously, when was the last time you saw a kiting BC? Did it need links+drugs+snakes to even be possible? Double nano+poly cane barely gets to 1600m/s. An OH cycle on a BS MWD would be enough to slingshot that. Did you forget that BC speed was nerfed into the ground a couple years ago?

If we shift the popularity of cruisers to BC's, then guess what becomes useful again? Battleships. Then if BS get out of line, cruisers/hacs/t3's will reel them back in again. That is why a ship food chain is important, its balances itself out.

Let's hop back to the issue at hand then.

t1 combat cruisers speeds all 5s, 10mn MWD as only fitting:
Stabber: 2435
Thorax: 2028
Omen: 2018
caracal: 1881
rupture: 1693
Vexor: 1663
Maller 1580
moa: 1547


t1 BC speeds, all 5s, 10mn MWD as only fitting:
Tornado: 1585
Talos: 1529
Oracle: 1436
Naga: 1386
Cyclone: 1311
Hurricane: 1293
Brutix: 1232
Ferox: 1074
Prophecy: 1170
Harbinger: 1123
Myrmadon: 1120
Drake 1003


In the list above, the battlecruisers which are as fast or faster than the slowest cruiser are in bold. Those within 100m/s of the slowest cruiser are in italics. Now, show me where anyone wants to change any of those 2 attack battlecruisers to be more effective?

Now, for the claim about attack battleships, let us now add a third list, with Battleships running 100mn MWDs (I will, of course include the machariel as it illustrates a point.)


t1 Bs (+machariel) speeds, all 5s, 100mn MWD as only fitting:

Machariel: 1505
Typhoon: 1174
Tempest: 1154
Megathron: 1116
Hyperion 1041
Apocalypse: 1041
Raven: 1028
Dominix: 986
Armageddon: 880
Maelstrom: 835
Scorpion:835
Rokh: 783
Abaddon: 792


As above, speeds which meet or beat the slowest of the vessels in the size class below it are in Bold and those within 100m/s are in italics. For lulz sake, we find a battleship which would be in the italics in the battlecruiser class, being faster than all of the combat battlecruisers which we are currently discussing buffs to, and half the attack battlecruisers which we want left mostly alone.

So, care to try a different argument than raw speeds?

I actually meant CBCs instead of Attack BCs my bad. OP didn't even address Attack BCs, and my example used a CBC so I thought that was clear. But my point still stands. You've literally just shown me that with the exception of the Drake (the slowest of all the CBCs), every other Attack BS is slower than their racial counterpart and none of them are faster to the extent that attack cruisers are faster than destroyers.

Which means he can hit at the same optimal as the tempest..... kind of.

AC numbers
All using short range ammo:
Hurricane with 425 AC km 2.25km optimal with a 13km falloff, all skills 5 and 50% bonus to optimal.
Tempest with dual 425 ACs: 2.4km optimal with a 22km falloff, as is.
Tempest with 800 ACs: 3km optimal with 22km falloff

Arty numbers
Hurricane with 720s: 22.5km optimal with 22km falloff
Tempest with 1200s: 24km optimal with 44km falloff
Tempest with 1400s: 30km optimal with 44km falloff

Hmm. Looks like their engagement basket, before TCs and TEs is going to be about the same..... Even 720 arty on the bonused hurricane vs 425s is in an ungood spot for the cane once you start adding on tracking enhancers on a shield pest, or a TC or 2 on an armor pest.

I'm not really sure what you mean by this:There isn't a need to 'drop turrets' or do anything else drastic. I think simply adding a role bonus focused on damage application to all the CBCs would go a long way to getting them used and healthy.


We play Cruisers Online because the T3Cs are broken as hell, and the cruiser class as a whole doesn't have any natural predators. Nothing would make my happier than seeing CBCs become cruiser killers similar to how destroyers are frigate killers.

This is what I would like to see (my changes are in italics):


PROPHECY
Amarr Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
10% bonus to Drone damage and hitpoints
4% bonus to all Armor Resistances

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
+37.5% bonus to drone tracking
(Drone bandwidth increased from 75 to 100)


HARBINGER
Amarr Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
10% reduction in Medium Energy Weapon capacitor need
10% bonus to Medium Energy Weapon damage

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
+37.5% bonus to Medium Energy Weapon optimal range


HARBINGER NAVY ISSUE
Amarr Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
7.5% bonus to Medium Energy Weapon tracking speed
10% bonus to Medium Energy Weapon damage

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
+37.5% bonus to Medium Energy Weapon optimal range


FEROX
Caldari Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
4% bonus to all Shield resistances
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
+25% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed


DRAKE
Caldari Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
4% bonus to all shield resistances
10% bonus to kinetic damage of Heavy Missiles and Heavy Assault Missiles

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
+25% bonus to missile explosion velocity


DRAKE NAVY ISSUE
Caldari Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
10% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Velocity
5% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile explosion radius per level

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
+25% bonus to missile explosion velocity


BRUTIX
Gallente Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Armor Repairer effectiveness

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
+25% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range OR +50% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff


BRUTIX NAVY ISSUE
Gallente Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage
7.5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking speed

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
+25% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range OR +50% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret falloff


MYRMIDON
Gallente Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage dealt by drones
7.5% bonus to Armor Repairer effectiveness

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
+37.5% bonus to drone tracking


CYCLONE
Minmatar Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile and Light Missile rate of fire
7.5% bonus to Shield Boost amount

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
25% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile and Light Missile explosion velocity


HURRICANE
Minmatar Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret Rate of Fire

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
+25% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed


HURRICANE FLEET ISSUE
Minmatar Battlecruiser skill bonus per level:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret Rate of Fire

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules
+25% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed


GNOSIS
Special Abilities:
25% bonus to Medium Energy, Hybrid and Projectile Turret damage and tracking
25% bonus to Heavy Missiles and Heavy Assault Missiles damage and explosion velocity
50% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage dealt by drones and +25% bonus to drone tracking speed
37.5% increase to scan strength of probes

Role Bonus:
Can fit Warfare Link modules

Where am I going to run away? Ummm. outside of point range? Thought that was obvious. The same reason why fragile frigates run from 100km cormorants, to escape point range, obviously not damage range. Use some logic dude.

A Thrasher can't outrun a Stabber, but you're implying it's fair to give the Hurricane the 50% optimal range bonus of the Thrasher while it can still outrun a Tempest?

Cool story.

Beg to differ. Take a look at the role bonus of various destroyers some time.

Where am I going to run away? Ummm. outside of point range? Thought that was obvious. The same reason why fragile frigates run from 100km cormorants, to escape point range, obviously not damage range. Use some logic dude.

A Thrasher can't outrun a Stabber, but you're implying it's fair to give the Hurricane the 50% optimal range bonus of the Thrasher while it can still outrun a Tempest?

Cool story.