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How do we increase PvP in C5 and C6?

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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#281 - 2015-04-30 13:37:30 UTC
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
So, about 2 months ago my group moved from c6/c6 to a c4/c4/c2. Since then, the amount of pvp we get has increased dramatically.

...and stuff, blah blah


Mate. You moved from C6/C6 and suddenly you don't get caught in the vicious circle of "bear to afford leet PVP doctrine boats / krab fleet killed / krab some more / krab a bit more to afford second chaacter training / krab fleet smashed again / no escalations, I'm not signing in f u guise / why no one create me more content" and you get into Mullet Hole living (business out the front, party round the back N766/X877 baybeeeee) and it's all about the PVP and scanning a billion wormholes. Then you sell your excess 90 capitals and have squillions of spare ISk wads.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
fido goran
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2015-04-30 14:01:06 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:
So, about 2 months ago my group moved from c6/c6 to a c4/c4/c2. Since then, the amount of pvp we get has increased dramatically.

...and stuff, blah blah


Mate. You moved from C6/C6 and suddenly you don't get caught in the vicious circle of "bear to afford leet PVP doctrine boats / krab fleet killed / krab some more / krab a bit more to afford second chaacter training / krab fleet smashed again / no escalations, I'm not signing in f u guise / why no one create me more content" and you get into Mullet Hole living (business out the front, party round the back N766/X877 baybeeeee) and it's all about the PVP and scanning a billion wormholes. Then you sell your excess 90 capitals and have squillions of spare ISk wads.

I found this enjoyable to read. I wish I was joking.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#283 - 2015-04-30 14:10:28 UTC
Bloemkoolsaus wrote:

I also think the influence of being able to put clones in wspace and not be podded to hs is exaggerated. Don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to switch clones in my Tower, but I don't think it will be the magic that solves all the problems.


This wouldn't magically fix all the problems, true, but it's one of the small things that might make people pvp more freely in some situations. For example, if I have only 15 minutes time left before I have to log for the day, I will think twice before engaging a situation that carries a high probability of me getting podded out of wh-space.

Bloemkoolsaus wrote:

An easy way is removing a number of systems. Instead of this, maybe something smart can be done with connectivity.
- Make some magic that connects `active` systems to other active systems more often, and less to inactive systems. (How to determine what system is active and wich one is not, let's not go there right now)
- Do something special with the shattered systems. I like the fact that you can't roll the frigate wormholes. Maybe not being able to roll shattered wormholes is an interesting option to persue.
- Get some wormholes (shattered for exemple) to have a lot more connections, opening up more area's.


Reducing C6 to 50 systems and C5 to 200 or so would be interesting indeed. Doubt it will ever happen though ;(

Bloemkoolsaus wrote:

There are also a couple of mechanics that I think hurt wspace.

- Spawn distance from the wormhole for larger ships. Has been talked about to much already though.

- New signatures popping up automatically in your probe window. You used to need probes and scan regurarly for new sigs to pop up. Changing this back to the old ways, will change nothing for pve'ers that have probes out and take the effort to press scan every now and then.
So, I think there are no downsides to changing this back.


I don't feel like reverting those changes would do much for pvp. Making collapsing safer while at the same time making PvE more dangerous / inconvenient (by forcing people to press the scan button every 10 seconds or so) would be somewhat contradictory.

I actually think that spawn distances for cruisers and below could be even further (10km+). I know people think that would make wormholes more like gates and remove the uniqueness from them, however, ships spawning basically right on top of wormholes is one of the reasons why there is such a heavy armor brawling meta.
Ayeson
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#284 - 2015-04-30 14:18:28 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Ayeson wrote:
Personal preference. Large scale brings challenges that small scale doesn't.
I've been at every part of the wormhole food chain, I wouldn't go back to being small if you catch my drift.

You're fully entitled to liking being in a big Corp but saying being a big Corp is harder than being a small Corp, especially in a thread about pvp, is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Even from HK.

As I am entitled to my opinion you are entitled to yours. However, I wouldn't expect you to understand anyone else's viewpoint, considering you just ignored all the content from my posts and assumed I was saying "big corps are hard to be in"

Did I say it was "hard" to be in a big corp? No. I said the administrative challenges that it provides me are more entertaining and interesting than ones I dealt with when HK was young. I've constantly stated that the lack of leadership is what ruins wormhole corps, and having toxic members floating around from corp to corp seems to be another one of those things.

I ♥ the orthrus
Ghenghis Kralj
Big Johnson's
#285 - 2015-04-30 17:45:24 UTC
I can see a pos mod for pods that could work. You could set priority level when you get podded or maybe allow you to swap implants. Although..not sure how hard no 2 is to code. Allowing podded pilots to come back into their home system would be a game changer for eviction techniques imo. Not sure what the end result would be though. Could the blue donut just bring even more to counteract? Yes, I believe so. So not sure that it's enough, but I have the other changes proposed.

As far as cap escalations go, they are disconnected from pvp in my view. Those who are doing hard core cap escalations are never going to agree to "consensual" pvp anyways. So changed spawn points, etc. isn't going to make pvp better. It'll just give you more empty holes.

I want the mass based jump range situation to go away. I can't see anything good that has come out of it. From my understanding and view of the situation, I don't believe that significant number of players are rage rolling during the week. Yes, mass based jumping has increased the risk of rolling, but it has significantly decreased overall risk in wormhole space due to lower rage rolling.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#286 - 2015-04-30 18:05:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ab'del Abu
Ghenghis Kralj wrote:

I want the mass based jump range situation to go away. I can't see anything good that has come out of it. From my understanding and view of the situation, I don't believe that significant number of players are rage rolling during the week. Yes, mass based jumping has increased the risk of rolling, but it has significantly decreased overall risk in wormhole space due to lower rage rolling.


The people that have been rage rolling before still seem to be rage rolling (during workdays, too). If anything, it adds a maximum of one minute per roll, usually half that amount of time. Considering it takes ~3-4 minutes to do the following

- waiting for a new signature to pop up
- scanning it
- warping there
- jumping and scouting

that one minute doesn't weigh in all that much.
Araikas Rhal
Hair-Trigger
#287 - 2015-04-30 19:50:42 UTC
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Ghenghis Kralj wrote:

I want the mass based jump range situation to go away. I can't see anything good that has come out of it. From my understanding and view of the situation, I don't believe that significant number of players are rage rolling during the week. Yes, mass based jumping has increased the risk of rolling, but it has significantly decreased overall risk in wormhole space due to lower rage rolling.


The people that have been rage rolling before still seem to be rage rolling (during workdays, too). If anything, it adds a maximum of one minute per roll, usually half that amount of time. Considering it takes ~3-4 minutes to do the following

- waiting for a new signature to pop up
- scanning it
- warping there
- jumping and scouting

that one minute doesn't weigh in all that much.


Two days ago i used two standard tanked, 1600 plate, ect battleships MWD, and MJD fit to roll a hole in front of minimal 7 tengus, a broadsword, plus w/e on d scan was theirs and not on grid or cloaked. Did this 4-5 times, don't remember, but anyway i should be dead yea? Well they scram after half a second decloak, so around 8K off and webbed, i eat one bump that did not line up right . Jump jump, MJD. Yay i dont have to build another geddon. We wait 15 min or so (Theirs 3 of us online.) and a scout, Viggo, takes a look inside, d-scan kinda clear, but yea, we see them and i decide to do it again except with 2x BSs RR fit. A geddon and a domi. Jump one and hold the other to see if they jump back, they do not. I make it back AGAIN, with a 2x plated BS through 2 bumps and webs again. Hot, hot. Lets go wait out WH aids timer and afk for a smoke.

Ok, so after a 5 min discusion one how much mass 7x Tengu's with at least half going prop on has thrown our WH off..... i go again; hey look they reshipped into vigilant, few proteus, and a rapier. Hm, well jumped both, lets see what happens. I wont fight in their WH where we are outnumbered and out shipped, they dont like the fact that we have an Altar to Bob and they dont. But somehow i get back, again with both BS, and they do not follow.

TL;DR: Mass based spawn range will not be the lynch pin in increasing PvP and cultivating players in high class wormholes. If you really do want to have fun in WH space, let HardCoX&Co. take over everything, "rent" it all out for 2 months while farming retards and bitches, then one day reset them all and tell them to **** off. The players wont create the sort of thunderdome we all say we want on our own, because most are more worried about their assets; content created, now for the love of Bob can we raid this drug POS next door?

I played other games in my past life. I must have done something wrong to be re-incarnated as an Eve player.
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#288 - 2015-04-30 21:00:51 UTC
About the mass based jump ranges, though... I really think it killed one of the few tactics smaller corps could employ going up against bigger corps. It was frustrating when it happened to us, but looking back, combat rolling/massing was a very smart adaptation to otherwise winless situations.
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#289 - 2015-04-30 21:08:38 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
About the mass based jump ranges, though... I really think it killed one of the few tactics smaller corps could employ going up against bigger corps. It was frustrating when it happened to us, but looking back, combat rolling/massing was a very smart adaptation to otherwise winless situations.


this really needs more +1's even if it is hidden (doesnt really cos i've already passed it on cos its a really good point)


Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#290 - 2015-04-30 21:17:13 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
About the mass based jump ranges, though... I really think it killed one of the few tactics smaller corps could employ going up against bigger corps. It was frustrating when it happened to us, but looking back, combat rolling/massing was a very smart adaptation to otherwise winless situations.

Yes, the spawn range change was really bad, but I doubt CCP will remove it.
There was a massive threadnaught about it with people telling CCP exactly this and they went ahead and implemented it anyway - why would they listen now?
Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#291 - 2015-04-30 22:18:33 UTC
To Riot with fuzzy and all his changes!

~lvl 60 paladin~
LtauSTinpoWErs
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#292 - 2015-04-30 23:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: LtauSTinpoWErs
I would like to encourage everyone to read what I have written below. I know it is long, as it has taken a bit of time to create but I believe a lot of what I say has merit. Unfortunately, there is not one singular fix for encouraging PVP in wormhole space or making it more active. I believe there are a number of things that need to be adjusted and/or created to improve upon the current status of W-Space. For those that are unable to have patience, well I am not sure W-Space or even EVE Online for that matter is right for you, but I will include a TL:DR at the bottom as well. Seriously, if you only read the TL:DR and not the majority of my post, then I hope your rookie ships no longer come with Tritanium.

**WARNING** Wall of Text Incoming

Recently, one of the best things happened to this game, and that was the removal of clone grades. Essentially, clone grade costs were a PVP tax and deterred older players from flying cheap ships such as frigates and cruisers since their clone grade alone (not including implants or hardwirings) was worth much more than the ship and fittings. Now, having different clones with different implants and hardwirings plugged in isn’t the same as the aforementioned PVP tax but it does deter certain EVE players from risking those implants and hardwirings in PVP. If those players had the ability to switch out of their clones quicker, they may be more inclined to pew-pew.

I believe that there should be a new structure implemented within the EVE Online universe that would allow an individual to swap out his or her clone. This structure would be allowed to anchor at any POS within Known Space (High Sec, Low Sec, and Null Sec) or within Wormhole Space. Similar to all other anchorable structures, this too could be destroyed, resulting in the loss and kill mail of any and all clones stored within it. I am not sure if there should be a timer on this structure for switching clones but if there is, I feel that the timer should be very small; perhaps an hour or so. Another option that could be developed, for the clone swapping timer, is clone fatigue. This could be similar to the jump fatigue that is already developed. This would mean that you could swap clones pretty quickly at first, but the more often that you do it in a short time period, the longer your fatigue would become. You could also use the Infomorph Synchronizing skill level to affect what amount of fatigue each individual receives from swapping his or her clone out. I also don’t know how many clones should be allowed per individual in this structure or if the structure instead should only have a limit on total clone capacity. Examples below:

Example of clone limit per person: First we have five (5) people sharing a POS so each individual is able to fit one (1) clone at the structure for a total of five (5) clones. Second example is where one (1) person has his/her own POS but is only able to fit (1) clone at the structure for a total of (1) clone. Example of total clone capacity: First we have five (5) people sharing a POS so each individual is able to fit one (1) clone at the structure for a total of five (5) clones [SAME AS FIRST EXAMPLE]. Second example is where we have one (1) person with his/her own POS and chooses to store five (5) clones at it for a total of five (5) clones.

Second thing that I would like to see happen to EVE may already be in the works (one can hope anyways). All over New Eden and throughout W-Space (I am not sure if W-Space is included in New Eden or if it is acknowledge separately…please someone inform me) are abandoned POSs and POS modules. I would love to see Sleepers/Drifters clear out these abandoned structures. Notifications can still be sent out to warn players/corporations that their structures are under attack so if they truly wish to online and protect their tower, they would have the option to do so. If these “deadsticks” were cleared out, it may give CCP a better idea of what systems are empty, and at the very least, I would imagine that it would help reduce some small amount of server resources.

I do not think we should create new classes of wormholes yet. However, if CCP were to eventually go that route, I would hope that they would alter empty wormholes that are already within the game and convert them to said new wormhole class level. There are pros and cons to everything of course and I think with that being said, by having less empty wormholes, there would be a greater chance of player interaction. Although, it would also be easier to get reinforcements or roll for specific systems…unless your static was shattered…see below.

I really like the idea of shattered wormholes but I think they need tweaking as well. All that I have used them for personally is scanning out other connections. They have a ton of cosmic signatures and anomalies in them but besides the shattered Wolf-Rayet systems, I don’t think they are being used to their potential. What I would like to see, just like the frigate only wormholes, is a very high stable mass wormhole that regenerates over time. This would mean that collapsing these wormholes would be nearly impossible, and would virtually always last to the end of their 16 hour lifespan. The main difference is that it wouldn’t be restricted to frigates only. This would force people to scan out their chain and put home sites on hold if their static was a shattered wormhole. Interestingly enough, this would also encourage them to run sites within their shattered static because pilots wouldn't be fearful of the chain closing with capitals jumping through.
LtauSTinpoWErs
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#293 - 2015-04-30 23:19:57 UTC  |  Edited by: LtauSTinpoWErs
I figured that I would share my opinion on some other mentioned ideas. I am interested in the dual static proposal and think that could be a way to generate more traffic through chains. It seems to be working well for individuals living in C4 Space, or say the say in this thread. I haven’t lived there so I don’t know much about it but I have scanned my fair share of C4s that have popped up in our chain. If it would actually generate more traffic, then I am all for it. I also believe that the mass spawn distance should be reverted back to the standardized distance for all spaceships, because it was a good way for smaller entities to fight outnumbered, and then bail out if needed.

Lastly, some terrible ideas have been mentioned and they should NOT be introduced into EVE Online. Pilots should NOT be allowed to jump clone in/out of a wormhole (exclusion is Thera). That just doesn’t make much sense. Wormholes should NOT get the stargate treatment where they appear on the overview. That is one of the stupidest things that I have heard of. It is super easy to scan now since they changed the scanning process. Nor should people be allowed to set up a structure to stabilize a specific wormhole connection. This is Eve, learn to scan, pay, or beg for a bookmark. I do NOT think that you should nerf home site escalations. Knowing that people use capitals in PVE is a content driver for PVP. IT doesn’t matter if it is low-sec, null-sec or w-space. The difference is group A will rage rolls its chain to find bear fleets, while group B uses Dotlan and fast tackle to try and catch ratting capitals. People will try and kill ratters and it is up to the ratter’s friends or corporation mates to back them up if something goes down.

[Summary] I know it has been a long read but I hope you don’t feel like it was worthless. I think there are a number of things that can improve life and PVP in W-Space. Having the ability to switch clones inside a POS would be a small step in that direction. I think if Sleepers and Drifters went around reprocessing deadsticks then perhaps we would have a better idea of why certain W-Space systems are so vacant, and alter them to make them more appealing. I think shattered wormholes need to be altered to have connections nearly impossible to collapse. I think dual statics could also be a good thing although I can’t say for certain. The current ship mass spawn location has done nothing beneficial to gameplay and should be reverted. PVE will always create content for PVP even if it is just ganks. The party being ganked, may have friends and may be able to fight off the gankers...turning the original PVE activity into PVP.

TL:DR
Clone grades are gone
Introduce clone swapping structure
Have sleepers/drifters kill deadsticks
Take a look at empty WH systems
Adjusted shattered wormholes connections to be very hard to collapse
Dual static idea/revert ship mass spawn
PVE creates PVP content
Proposed bad ideas
Summary
TL:DR
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#294 - 2015-05-01 00:41:02 UTC
LtauSTinpoWErs wrote:

TL:DR
Clone grades are gone
Introduce clone swapping structure
Have sleepers/drifters kill deadsticks
Take a look at empty WH systems
Adjusted shattered wormholes connections to be very hard to collapse
Dual static idea/revert ship mass spawn
PVE creates PVP content
Proposed bad ideas
Summary
TL:DR


Awesome to the first 3, neutral to the rest.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#295 - 2015-05-01 00:55:38 UTC
corbexx wrote:
Hidden Fremen wrote:
About the mass based jump ranges, though... I really think it killed one of the few tactics smaller corps could employ going up against bigger corps. It was frustrating when it happened to us, but looking back, combat rolling/massing was a very smart adaptation to otherwise winless situations.


this really needs more +1's even if it is hidden (doesnt really cos i've already passed it on cos its a really good point)





It's not hidden, duh. We can all see it.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#296 - 2015-05-01 01:17:48 UTC
corbexx wrote:
Hidden Fremen wrote:
About the mass based jump ranges, though... I really think it killed one of the few tactics smaller corps could employ going up against bigger corps. It was frustrating when it happened to us, but looking back, combat rolling/massing was a very smart adaptation to otherwise winless situations.


this really needs more +1's even if it is hidden (doesnt really cos i've already passed it on cos its a really good point)




And as I've said to you and others, there needs to be a minimum distance from the WH.
https://namamai.wordpress.com/2014/06/25/the-server-tick-or-wtf-why-didnt-my-point-turn-on/
You can set the max to whatever, I don't care, but no ship should be within jumprange of a WH after it jumps. Not everyone lives in Europe.

Personally I'd like to see it at 6.5km. That's far enough that you can't jump back straight away. Others can see what your intentions are, either crash back or push off and cloak clearly before they actually happen and react accordingly. Its also still close enough that you can power back in bigger ships if need be, while still retaining the risk that an organised gang can leave you stranded short.
Luft Reich
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#297 - 2015-05-01 01:27:51 UTC
Revert mass distance thing, coming from somebody who has used the tactic against Lazerhawks before I joined (no hate please) it really gives smaller groups a fighting chance to use the unique mass of wormholes to their advantage.

Also I totally suggested it on internal forums, do I get good bob karma when CSM gets it changed?

Much love,
Luft <333

ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post
Accountant O'Death
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2015-05-01 03:50:00 UTC
Ayeson wrote:
This thread.

wormholes have a pretty obvious lifecycle. with a few...exits...kinda like every other corp/region lifecycle in EVE there are opportunities for PVP at all of these levels and above, if you just stop sticking with the meta and do something unexpected.

1.Corp starts small Sub 100 dudes
Two options here...Stay Small and talk about how elite you are all the time on the forums, living out of whatever the **** kind of connection you have, barely finding anyone who wants to shoot lazers at you besides sleepers, or your members want MORE CONTENT and find a way to grow yourself into a medium sized corp.

2.Corp grows to medium size 101 - 249 dudes
Again, you have a few options...You like where you are now, you can stay as a medium corp operating out of whatever region you feel like i.e. wspace. You can join a wormhole alliance and either go crowd a wormhole until it kills your corp, or live separately and constantly have your thought capacity questioned by every person who has an eve-o account. Or you decide that alliances are stupid and keep recruiting people until it begins to force change on your organization

3. Corp IS GRANDE 250+ dudes
So, now you have anywhere between 250+ dudes (like 150+ real dudes) who are somewhat bloodthirsty, have some sort of cultural affinity with eachother, that or they hate eachother, and they love making me have ulcers and waking me/you up at all hours of the night with pings and HR issues. Anyways, if you get this big its a challenge for everyone, its a challenge for the members, for the recruiters, for the leadership (especially leadership) because dudes dont stick around if they dont have content.

4. Corp ascends to valhalla
RIP these dudes

I guess where I'm going with this is...everyone plays eve for a reason, stop focusing on why everyone else is an ******* cause they have their own way to play the game, and figure out a way you can manipulate their playstyle to work for you and to provide you joy and content. I play administration online, with a smattering of spaceships. I'm proud as **** of HK and everytime someone is salty as **** about how large our fleets are and how we seem to be everywhere, I'm grinning like an idiot. And that's because I'm winning.


Only someone from Hardknocks would consider 249 dudes a medium corp...
GizzyBoy
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#299 - 2015-05-01 04:03:21 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
About the mass based jump ranges, though... I really think it killed one of the few tactics smaller corps could employ going up against bigger corps. It was frustrating when it happened to us, but looking back, combat rolling/massing was a very smart adaptation to otherwise winless situations.



Pretty sure even if they could mass it, if they connect to you in there chain, they will just log off and come back in 24 hours.
that's what used to happen to us even before the jump changes where made.
Luft Reich
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#300 - 2015-05-01 05:10:26 UTC
GizzyBoy wrote:
Hidden Fremen wrote:
About the mass based jump ranges, though... I really think it killed one of the few tactics smaller corps could employ going up against bigger corps. It was frustrating when it happened to us, but looking back, combat rolling/massing was a very smart adaptation to otherwise winless situations.



Pretty sure even if they could mass it, if they connect to you in there chain, they will just log off and come back in 24 hours.
that's what used to happen to us even before the jump changes where made.


Coming from a smaller gang corp when we had 10-15 people online (before I joined Hawks) and were trying to fight the bigger groups being able to mass the hole to control the fight was a very important resources to use against the enemy. By saying people will just log off vs the blob is a cultural thing in their corp and nothing will fix that, no mechanics will. So instead of stereotyping all small gang groups of not fighting, give them more tools to fight the blob.

ISD Cyberdyne liked your forum post