These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Wormholes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

How do we increase PvP in C5 and C6?

First post
Author
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#241 - 2015-04-29 15:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Fremen
We didn't start big. Our first week, we were 20 something members. We took any fight since day one. No, "sorry, we're in the middle of moving." We weren't even moved into our Pulsar yet. It's a hard job keeping our member numbers low. It's more work purging our inactives than it is taking in fresh blood. And cutting off recruitment is the fastest way to kill your corp, I think. But still, I recognize there's a problem. I know what needs to be done and we're trying. Most of our cap ganks are solo. The teaming up does reflect negatively toward us, so we'll be cutting down on that.

The TDSIN invasion was a step in that direction. There was nothing we (both sides of leadership) wanted more than to keep it 1v1. It was only us two, until suddenly Dropbears trickled in, then hearing about several others volunteering. I suppose the assumption that HK/QEX were en route was panic enough to not waste time picking up the phone, but they'd been absent the entire time. There are battle reports to prove. I mean, ****, all 50+ of their towers were reinforced by us, only. But, in hindsight, maybe we should have just kept it 100% Lazerhawks, despite the looming TDSIN coalition (DB, PL, TSNK, Exceed, AHARM [others they tried to reach, but came offering to us, instead]). We would have been mangled from the boots up with that coalition, but maybe then we would have been patted on the back. TDSIN had enough power to repel us on their own, actually. We started with two dreads and subcaps... It probably would have still been something like, "Lol, getfkt evikshen fail lolol," though.

Everyone starts small. If they produce enough content, they swell in numbers. People dig that. Can't blame anyone for that. The teaming up is a problem and should be done at least proportionally (1v1 corps). We do fight each other, though. We've fight HK and SSC more times than we have any other entity.

We want more fights, so we'll do our best to make that more appealing to others, starting with reductions.

That said, there's not a mechanic that can be changed to increase consensual PvP. That's why when Sugar asked me how I would change it, I was stumped (also inebriated). Corbexx did what he could to bring people out of their force fields, but beyond that is a cultural mindset. Most people hate overly aggressive behavior. Others hate risk aversion. There's conflict there, just not the right type. So, I think it's really up to us, as corp leaders, to make some sacrifices to foster internal changes, if we want more people willing to pew.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#242 - 2015-04-29 15:12:37 UTC
What do you think about the c7 with multiple statics? A bigger yard to play in?
Hidden Fremen
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#243 - 2015-04-29 15:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Hidden Fremen
I think they should give dual statics to other space, before introducing yet another class of wormhole.
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#244 - 2015-04-29 15:21:12 UTC
Zara Arran wrote:
Second of all: Jack, might want to start with your own corp.

Oh, if only you knew.

Zara Arran wrote:
If they are really farmers, you should be able to fight them with on your own anyway. A lot of these groups that team up are 300+ char-groups, and then they find it weird that smaller starting pvp groups don't want to move to C5/C6's..

Just one point - it's always worth remembering that those membership numbers don't always count for everything.

Recently Iso5 ganked a farming fleet of 5 capitals. We did it alone and were quite chuffed about it. Now this is a 100+ character corporation. You need to keep in mind the general rule that you 1/3 (or 1/2 at best) corp membership numbers to get a rough estimate of the actual humans in it.

Fittingly, we managed to put together a fleet of 25 for that gank, and had the locals responded with even a fleet of 10 T3s to support their caps (which was quite possible) we would have been in big trouble. Luckily for us that didn't happen.

Now ... had we been sure these guys were going to respond with a T3 fleet to defend their caps damn right I'm sure we would have asked for backup. We'd have needed it to hold the field.

You also need to keep timezones in mind. I've been online numerous times when 'friendly' corps have phoned us and asked for extra pilots, and I've literally been the only one online lol. Why were they asking? Because their situation at that time of day wasn't much better.

Just food for thought overall.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#245 - 2015-04-29 16:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Trinkets friend
I can confirm, some times Iso5 is like, 2 guys (or guys acting as girls) online, and then you randomly see a Dusette in Local and it's all "Hey bbeh wut U doing?" and hen "Oh there's like 8 guys camping bubelz but it's only me." and I'm all "lets slide a few Gilas and a bait Rook in there and see what happens."

*dim lights*

*lava lamp*

content happens. Amirite?
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#246 - 2015-04-29 16:10:29 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
content happens. Amirite?

I still have no idea what happened that night or who the hell I was shooting at.

But it was fun. Big smile

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#247 - 2015-04-29 16:10:32 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
That said, there's not a mechanic that can be changed to increase consensual PvP. That's why when Sugar asked me how I would change it, I was stumped (also inebriated). Corbexx did what he could to bring people out of their force fields, but beyond that is a cultural mindset. Most people hate overly aggressive behavior. Others hate risk aversion. There's conflict there, just not the right type. So, I think it's really up to us, as corp leaders, to make some sacrifices to foster internal changes, if we want more people willing to pew.


Commonly it's *They have the same fleet as us, +2 falcons and then a bubbler. Not only do you know you're going to lose, but you also know you're going to have to make 1248061 jumps in order to get into the fight again, if the victorious so chose as to let you back in.

While at 0m and with strong logistics, T3s resists+sigradius+gank turn them insane. They got tackle and neuts and effects turn more impactful the stronger the numbers are shifted. When engaging a numerically weaker force, it's sort of a mobile version of parking a dozen vindis and an archon on your hole. So if a gang shows up in T3s and has to announce themselves in local, it's usually not going to happen that way. Yet so many people try it and wonder.
Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#248 - 2015-04-29 17:01:11 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
We didn't start big. Our first week, we were 20 something members. We took any fight since day one. No, "sorry, we're in the middle of moving." We weren't even moved into our Pulsar yet. It's a hard job keeping our member numbers low. It's more work purging our inactives than it is taking in fresh blood. And cutting off recruitment is the fastest way to kill your corp, I think. But still, I recognize there's a problem. I know what needs to be done and we're trying. Most of our cap ganks are solo. The teaming up does reflect negatively toward us, so we'll be cutting down on that.

The TDSIN invasion was a step in that direction. There was nothing we (both sides of leadership) wanted more than to keep it 1v1. It was only us two, until suddenly Dropbears trickled in, then hearing about several others volunteering. I suppose the assumption that HK/QEX were en route was panic enough to not waste time picking up the phone, but they'd been absent the entire time. There are battle reports to prove. I mean, ****, all 50+ of their towers were reinforced by us, only. But, in hindsight, maybe we should have just kept it 100% Lazerhawks, despite the looming TDSIN coalition (DB, PL, TSNK, Exceed, AHARM [others they tried to reach, but came offering to us, instead]). We would have been mangled from the boots up with that coalition, but maybe then we would have been patted on the back. TDSIN had enough power to repel us on their own, actually. We started with two dreads and subcaps... It probably would have still been something like, "Lol, getfkt evikshen fail lolol," though.

Everyone starts small. If they produce enough content, they swell in numbers. People dig that. Can't blame anyone for that. The teaming up is a problem and should be done at least proportionally (1v1 corps). We do fight each other, though. We've fight HK and SSC more times than we have any other entity.

We want more fights, so we'll do our best to make that more appealing to others, starting with reductions.

That said, there's not a mechanic that can be changed to increase consensual PvP. That's why when Sugar asked me how I would change it, I was stumped (also inebriated). Corbexx did what he could to bring people out of their force fields, but beyond that is a cultural mindset. Most people hate overly aggressive behavior. Others hate risk aversion. There's conflict there, just not the right type. So, I think it's really up to us, as corp leaders, to make some sacrifices to foster internal changes, if we want more people willing to pew.


this is literally the best post you've ever made

now never post again so that you don't ruin it

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy

Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#249 - 2015-04-29 17:02:18 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
*dim lights*

*lava lamp*

content happens. Amirite?


it's lights on music blasting when dusette and I create content Big smile

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#250 - 2015-04-29 17:02:47 UTC
Hidden Fremen wrote:
I think they should give dual statics to other space, before introducing yet another class of wormhole.


I guess what I'm not getting is why you wouldn't be for a C7 with 3 statics: C7/C7, C7/C5 or C6, and C7/C2 or C4. I think this would give you the monster epic c7/c7 connection for big boy stuff, and the other 2 connections would give you routes into both the high end and low end wh for other needs.

Part of my reasoning for a new space to accomodate large wh corps such as yours is because the current state of wh space is pretty awesome for my corp (and I'll assume other corps of my size). It goes more to the thought of why change something awesome because 5 groups outgrew it when you can add something new that fits those 5 groups (and makes room for others to step up).

I have a large concern about changing wh to the needs of larger groups. It's not anything you or your corp have put forth - it's more the things corbex is trying to do. This is his second attempt at a punch list of garbage to make wh 'better' by trying to bring a taste of null to wh space or trying to push folks into their static for pve. A lot of the ideas are poorly thought out or just plain bad. It seems that this time he was clever enough to put your character's name on the headline instead of his own.

Take mass/range - a few guys figured out that it would be easier to gank rolling caps if they were spawned at range. Not to rehash, but they mostly looked at what they wanted to happen and some math. They didn't look at how folks would adapt. Now we have higgs ravens.

Take the last 5 or so years of null. Big eve had too much sway and in the end garbage was created. Now, CCP is painfully digging out of those bad decisions. I guess I'm just concerned that a few large wh entities having CCPs ear will ruin wh space in a similar way. I say that with the reasonable assumption that large null interests didn't set out to make garbage, it just happened that way. What may be beneficial to a large group may not be beneficial to the game, a particular part of the game or in the long run... the player base.

If there is going to be a push for multiple statics in high end wh, then I would hope the push is for all c6 to have a c6/c6 (maybe make it bigger or something) and their current statics. I think what you are looking for is a normal static AND a combat static (in this example the c6/c6).

Does that line or reasoning make sense?
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#251 - 2015-04-29 17:44:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Ab'del Abu
Serendipity Lost wrote:


I guess what I'm not getting is why you wouldn't be for a C7 with 3 statics: C7/C7, C7/C5 or C6, and C7/C2 or C4. I think this would give you the monster epic c7/c7 connection for big boy stuff, and the other 2 connections would give you routes into both the high end and low end wh for other needs.


Just guessing, but it's probably that they only would have like three other entities to fight in such a scenario. Like HRDKX, SSC, and oh look I can't even think about a third one now that NoHo is gone -.- Anyways, it would probably become boring on day three.

Downsizing is probably the best thing they can do for their own sake and the overall health of wh-space content. There would be nothing wrong for the occasional get-together over a big cap gank or a casual null sec roam after splitting up, so ...
Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#252 - 2015-04-29 17:45:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Axloth Okiah
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I guess what I'm not getting is why you wouldn't be for a C7 with 3 statics: C7/C7, C7/C5 or C6, and C7/C2 or C4. I think this would give you the monster epic c7/c7 connection for big boy stuff, and the other 2 connections would give you routes into both the high end and low end wh for other needs.
Because it would be terrible for the same reasons C6s space is terrible, only even more terrible. Please try to learn from the history and shortfalls of the current environment before suggesting making a new one.
Ceberia Thalon wrote:
This whole thread was started by large groups complaining they don´t get enough pvp. I didn´t read anything like that from the small ones.
No, it was started by a goon and ex-WH bittervet shitposters.
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Downsizing is probably the best thing they can do for their own sake and the overall health of wh-space content.
The best thing would be people farming outside of their own systems.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#253 - 2015-04-29 18:19:34 UTC
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I guess what I'm not getting is why you wouldn't be for a C7 with 3 statics: C7/C7, C7/C5 or C6, and C7/C2 or C4. I think this would give you the monster epic c7/c7 connection for big boy stuff, and the other 2 connections would give you routes into both the high end and low end wh for other needs.
Because it would be terrible for the same reasons C6s space is terrible, only even more terrible. Please try to learn from the history and shortfalls of the current environment before suggesting making a new one.
Ceberia Thalon wrote:
This whole thread was started by large groups complaining they don´t get enough pvp. I didn´t read anything like that from the small ones.
No, it was started by a goon and ex-WH bittervet shitposters.
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Downsizing is probably the best thing they can do for their own sake and the overall health of wh-space content.
The best thing would be people farming outside of their own systems.



I would say the worst idea of the bunch is to force folks to farm outside their home system. Here's the reasoning:

1. Ganking folks doing pve is (my opinion) not really pvp. It's ganking. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy both ganking someone and I get a good chuckle out of getting ganked. If folks mean 'we can't find punching bags to gank' when they say 'we can't find pvp' then please, from now on, say what you mean. Not to presume I can read Fremen's mind, but of the few encounters I've had with him, I'd wager he's looking for a bit more than an endless supply of paladins to bubble up and pod.

2. Eve pilots are smart. WH pilots are smarter than average eve pilots. They/we (yeah you and me) will find the safest way to quickly gather pve isk and move on to other things. Any pve wh can be made 'safe'. We all have a variable level of what amount of 'safe' is ok. If you move 'safe' too far to the dangerous side, then folks won't pve unsafe, they will move to a safer way to get pve isk. HK has a policy of pve alts go to other corps, others will adopt this - for instance rolling up incursion alts to make isk that way. The bottom line is no one can design a pve mode that folks will line up to get slaughtered doing. That just makes no sense.

3. What making static pve more lucrative really does - it allows large corps that can't survive on home system sites feasable by shifting the income source from the once per day cycle to the once per static cycle. That shift in how isk is brought in would totally alter how wh space is played toward bigger being necessary. It's bad math. Period. You want to make hordes of low skill pve blobbs the norm, then lucrative static farming is the quickest route. I'd rather re-double wh spawn ranges based on possible max hull speed.
Winthorp
#254 - 2015-04-29 18:24:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Axloth Okiah wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I guess what I'm not getting is why you wouldn't be for a C7 with 3 statics: C7/C7, C7/C5 or C6, and C7/C2 or C4. I think this would give you the monster epic c7/c7 connection for big boy stuff, and the other 2 connections would give you routes into both the high end and low end wh for other needs.
Because it would be terrible for the same reasons C6s space is terrible, only even more terrible. Please try to learn from the history and shortfalls of the current environment before suggesting making a new one.
Ceberia Thalon wrote:
This whole thread was started by large groups complaining they don´t get enough pvp. I didn´t read anything like that from the small ones.
No, it was started by a goon and ex-WH bittervet shitposters.
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Downsizing is probably the best thing they can do for their own sake and the overall health of wh-space content.
The best thing would be people farming outside of their own systems.



I would say the worst idea of the bunch is to force folks to farm outside their home system. Here's the reasoning:

1. Ganking folks doing pve is (my opinion) not really pvp. It's ganking. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy both ganking someone and I get a good chuckle out of getting ganked. If folks mean 'we can't find punching bags to gank' when they say 'we can't find pvp' then please, from now on, say what you mean. Not to presume I can read Fremen's mind, but of the few encounters I've had with him, I'd wager he's looking for a bit more than an endless supply of paladins to bubble up and pod.

2. Eve pilots are smart. WH pilots are smarter than average eve pilots. They/we (yeah you and me) will find the safest way to quickly gather pve isk and move on to other things. Any pve wh can be made 'safe'. We all have a variable level of what amount of 'safe' is ok. If you move 'safe' too far to the dangerous side, then folks won't pve unsafe, they will move to a safer way to get pve isk. HK has a policy of pve alts go to other corps, others will adopt this - for instance rolling up incursion alts to make isk that way. The bottom line is no one can design a pve mode that folks will line up to get slaughtered doing. That just makes no sense.

3. What making static pve more lucrative really does - it allows large corps that can't survive on home system sites feasable by shifting the income source from the once per day cycle to the once per static cycle. That shift in how isk is brought in would totally alter how wh space is played toward bigger being necessary. It's bad math. Period. You want to make hordes of low skill pve blobbs the norm, then lucrative static farming is the quickest route. I'd rather re-double wh spawn ranges based on possible max hull speed.


You just dont get it at all.

We all dont want people to farm in their statics so we can gank a tengu and then chestbeat about how sweet that was. We want people to not close off entire chains of WH's because the ISK in escalating home sites is so good and so safe that they hide away from the rest of eve for an entire TZ at a time.

Thats not playing an MMO, that is people loving the carebear paradise.

I dont think static farming is the perfect answer and am not sure what is, but i think having farming in static a viable option and dual statics for C5/6 is a start. You have to agree the current sitiation of escalations is just ******.
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
#255 - 2015-04-29 18:30:01 UTC
Winthorp wrote:


We all dont want people to farm in their statics so we can gank a tengu and then chestbeat about how sweet that was. We want people to not close off entire chains of WH's because the ISK in escalating home sites is so good and so safe that they hide away from the rest of eve for an entire TZ at a time.

Thats not playing an MMO, that is people loving the carebear paradise.


The reality is, however, that many groups that pve in their statics are already closing the connections there as well. This trend would only continue if you killed home sites ... ultimately you gain nothing by pushing people into their statics.
Winthorp
#256 - 2015-04-29 18:36:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Winthorp wrote:


We all dont want people to farm in their statics so we can gank a tengu and then chestbeat about how sweet that was. We want people to not close off entire chains of WH's because the ISK in escalating home sites is so good and so safe that they hide away from the rest of eve for an entire TZ at a time.

Thats not playing an MMO, that is people loving the carebear paradise.


The reality is, however, that many groups that pve in their statics are already closing the connections there as well. This trend would only continue if you killed home sites ... ultimately you gain nothing by pushing people into their statics.


I just have to disagree that this would happen in the majority of cases. You only need to look at the behavior of curren static static farmers to know this would not be the actions most people would take.

Sure some really paranoid players would but then they are taking even more risk then the current system to acheive that safety net and now more chance they can get rolled into by not only their home wh but now their static also.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#257 - 2015-04-29 18:51:09 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Ab'del Abu wrote:
Winthorp wrote:


We all dont want people to farm in their statics so we can gank a tengu and then chestbeat about how sweet that was. We want people to not close off entire chains of WH's because the ISK in escalating home sites is so good and so safe that they hide away from the rest of eve for an entire TZ at a time.

Thats not playing an MMO, that is people loving the carebear paradise.


The reality is, however, that many groups that pve in their statics are already closing the connections there as well. This trend would only continue if you killed home sites ... ultimately you gain nothing by pushing people into their statics.


I just have to disagree that this would happen in the majority of cases. You only need to look at the behavior of curren static static farmers to know this would not be the actions most people would take.

Sure some really paranoid players would but then they are taking even more risk then the current system to acheive that safety net and now more chance they can get rolled into by not only their home wh but now their static also.


You're not making sense to me.

NOW: 1. Log on. 2. Bear it up. 3. Log off.

PVE FORCED TO STATIC: 1. Log on. 2. Bear it up in static. 3. Hey, doing pve in the static makes me want to stay logged in on my farming alt and roam around and get in a fight........ or 3. Log off.


????
Winthorp
#258 - 2015-04-29 19:46:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
Serendipity Lost wrote:

You're not making sense to me.

NOW: 1. Log on. 2. Bear it up. 3. Log off.

PVE FORCED TO STATIC: 1. Log on. 2. Bear it up in static. 3. Hey, doing pve in the static makes me want to stay logged in on my farming alt and roam around and get in a fight........ or 3. Log off.


????


I am not sure i can be any clearer, i thought the intention would be self evident if you thought about it for a moment.

As it wasn't to you i will explain further. The entire point is now that a lot of these corp/alliances that have 100-300 members and are not as "aggressive"as the "big 3" that keep getting blamed for global warming and the like are just closing off chains and hiding away most of their active TZ's. These are groups that have the same capabilities as the hated groups.

The entire point of stopping escalations is to open up more access to "interactions" with a lot of groups that rarely become part of your normal chain due to actions they take.
Zara Arran
Overload This
#259 - 2015-04-29 20:29:59 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:

Recently Iso5 ganked a farming fleet of 5 capitals. We did it alone and were quite chuffed about it. Now this is a 100+ character corporation. You need to keep in mind the general rule that you 1/3 (or 1/2 at best) corp membership numbers to get a rough estimate of the actual humans in it.

Fittingly, we managed to put together a fleet of 25 for that gank, and had the locals responded with even a fleet of 10 T3s to support their caps (which was quite possible) we would have been in big trouble. Luckily for us that didn't happen.

Now ... had we been sure these guys were going to respond with a T3 fleet to defend their caps damn right I'm sure we would have asked for backup. We'd have needed it to hold the field.

You also need to keep timezones in mind. I've been online numerous times when 'friendly' corps have phoned us and asked for extra pilots, and I've literally been the only one online lol. Why were they asking? Because their situation at that time of day wasn't much better.

Just food for thought overall.


I get that.. really.. But timezone's, the normal variation of activity, etc works both ways. Just like Noho was always thought to be a 50 man fleet... believe me, we didn't always have that...You often see people reminding others when their group has less members than normal due to tz/activity/whatevd but forget that your oponents can have the same thing when you don't have eyes on the enemy fleet.

People however are risk-aversed and will assume the worst. This is where reputation comes in. If you sometimes batphone, people will assume even when you haven't that you can or will and therefore will either not fight or try to bring even more. That is your own doing, don't blame your oponents for that assumption.

TL;DR: Batphoning is bad.


Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#260 - 2015-04-29 20:32:06 UTC
A single tengu might die fast, but a handful of spidertanking BS or 1-3 capitals can survive a few minutes until reinforcements arrive. Esp if the optimal corp setup is not 7 pilots anymore. It is not like you run sleepers with a 0% EM hole and no buffer.

People closing off all their connections in the static are way longer on the radar and at risk. RIght now you see people critting their homeconnections usually the same time you see their rollers on dscan and by the time you have scanned it down you can stare at a really wobbly hole.

And never underestemate the greed of people, with the spawndistancechanges many saw the death of rolling with capitals, yet there are nanodreads on the killboards.

There is also the factor of intel for the attacker when you find someone bearing in their static. Now if you see an escalationfleet you usually need between one dscan and two towerchecks to get the exact number of hostiles. If you roll into 5 people running sites in their static and they didn´t spot you there are at least 2 more holes connected to it. Might have some more pilots in it, might not. Are you going to check by jumping the hole? Adds more preptime where they might disappear, 2 cloaktimers where you are on dscan and theri scout seeing or just hearing you jump.
For nice killmails most people will jump on the chance and if there is support and you get a good brawl but loose it most wormholers would be more than happy with that.
And the line between ganking and being baited is a fine one.
You can also engade them on their way home contrary to escalationfarming where the only positions are in site or under the FF.
Is there any reason why homefarming is better than staticfarming from a contentaspect not maxiskperhour? Besides it being way safer and more stable since you can control the amount of sites you have.

But also, capitalwarfare should be the main sellingpoint of c5/6 compared to lowends. If you nerf capescalations maybe up the maxmass on the holes so there is a reason and possibility to bring 1-3 of those into your static for anything but going ballsdeep.

tldr: farming in static good for content esp if it is a groupthing. Also not a magic fix for all problems.