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[Scylla] Ishtars

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13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#361 - 2015-04-27 15:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
You guys have freaking rigs that raise sentry drone damage, unlike any other drones. No other drones have damage rigs.

Consider all the advantages turrets have over missiles, which is higher DPS and FULL damage application if angular velocity becomes very low, even for oversize guns (large sig resolution vs small radius). This is completely unlike missiles which still receive huge penalties hitting much smaller targets.

Turrets are already powerful enough vs small stuff.

Now add onto the fact that you have decentralized tracking from your own ship as a drone boat, in which angular velocity can get close to zero on the target numerous times as it flies around, and you have wrecking blows from battleship weapons onto frigs and other cruisers.

Drone damage on drone boats should be half their DPS equation. Damage from their guns should be the other half.

Capqu wrote:
17% damage reduction doesn't seem like it will fix the massive imbalance in damage done

when the drake got gutted them main thing targeted was application, and i think you should look at that for the ishtar too

its simply too good at all different kinds of ranges

bouncers have crazy range and tracking at that range
gardes have battleship damage and cruiser tracking and scorch range
pve wise wasps have frigate tracking and battleship damage and you can be afk and have warpcore stabs fit so there really isnt any reason to use any other ship [other than a vexor navy because its the same thing but cheaper LOL]

honestly 17% damage off the top of the sentry part seems irrelevant in on a ship which had battleship damage and yet its main imbalance is was flexibility

why can it fit and run 100mn AB with no fitting mods btw? it has fitting/cap regen for guns yet does not need to fit them, i think addressing this would help

edit: im not suggesting gutting it like the drake, which was clearly terrible and resulted in a bad ship [and weapon sysem]
but i do think harsher treatment is necessary here


So maybe drone boats the fitting should be much less for them if their main damage is in drones, because of how drones are a weapon system that take no fitting.

There's tons of ways in which drone boats have been way too strong for a long time.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#362 - 2015-04-27 16:09:07 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
This will achieve the goal of making Ishtars less useful, but unfortunately does nothing to make other ships useful. Range and speed are overpowered in EVE, and only doctrines with damage projection and mobility work.

In other words, people will just use the next platform that outranges others while remaining mobile, leaving whole shipclasses gathering dust in hangars.



Kind of like Punisher in solo pvp. The problem is there's not a lot of options to to deal with that. Yes, Damps and TDs exist, but they can be either hard or impossible to fit, or really nerf a ships overall power beacuse as you said, damage and mobility are much more powerful. As more and more people are using drone boats in FW, such as worms and dragoons, TDs are becoming more useless, because the main damage application for droners is a bunch of tiny fast ships its useless to try to deal with in a short lived fight. Drones overall are the flavor of the year, not the month.

It'd be nice if slower ships, that are meant to be slow tanky heavy hitters, actually had viability. (punisher, etc).

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Joanna RB
JoJo Industries n Shipbreakers
#363 - 2015-04-27 20:13:22 UTC
The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help?
Bl1SkR1N
13th HOUR
#364 - 2015-04-27 20:17:20 UTC
Imo there are two bad things which happened....

  • giving domi/ishtar heavy drone modes while also introducing drone modes which augmented it even more


  • removing of need for guns without making changes to high slot layouts.


This nerf was hardly enough and requires tougher approach.ň

Ishtars would be back in line if they got removed range bonus. This would actually require pilots to use their brains.

Domies would badly need to lose atleast 2high slots. So it actually has to make choices when fitting. Reduction to tracking would be good as well to make it more look like a battleship. It has plenty of slots for tracking mods.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#365 - 2015-04-27 20:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Joanna RB wrote:
The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help?

Because drones are the primary weapon for drone boats. That is why they are called Drone Boats.

And again, 5 Sentries on an Ishtar without range and tracking bonus make sentries next to useless against anything below BS.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#366 - 2015-04-27 21:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Joanna RB wrote:
The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help?

Because drones are the primary weapon for drone boats. That is why they are called Drone Boats.

And again, 5 Sentries on an Ishtar without range and tracking bonus make sentries next to useless against anything below BS.


"Next to useless without the Optimal range bonus"

Excuse me, tell me please how he **** do I reach these ranges on a Zealot - NEVERMIND reaching that EHP or matching the DPS on such setups:

1) http://i.imgur.com/GqTO6zd.png
2) http://i.imgur.com/cP7kPvH.png

Tracking is also 80-180% better than Heavy Beams w/ Aurora! Yes, I can reach Curator ranges at 15% less DPS and 48% less EHP, or -25%/-31%.

Sentries on this cruiser hull with those double bonuses is BULL. ****.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
13kr1d1
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#367 - 2015-04-27 22:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: 13kr1d1
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Joanna RB wrote:
The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help?

Because drones are the primary weapon for drone boats. That is why they are called Drone Boats.

And again, 5 Sentries on an Ishtar without range and tracking bonus make sentries next to useless against anything below BS.


Almost like sentries should be used to fight BS, and smaller drones should be used to fight smaller ships? *Le gasp*

ECM on the drone boat doesnt affect drones already aggro'd. Sensor damp, same thing. Tracking disruptor? Waste of time. Its the best weapon system in game, and to be capable of doing equal damage to ship turrets or missiles of the same class should require sacrifices on the boat, not just be inherent and easy to inflate further.

Don't kid yourselves. Even the dirtiest pirates from the birth of EVE have been carebears. They use alts to bring them goods at cheap prices and safely, rather than live with consequences of their in game actions on their main, from concord to prices
Bl1SkR1N
13th HOUR
#368 - 2015-04-28 05:34:15 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Joanna RB wrote:
The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help?

Because drones are the primary weapon for drone boats. That is why they are called Drone Boats.

And again, 5 Sentries on an Ishtar without range and tracking bonus make sentries next to useless against anything below BS.


It should be without either range or tracking. One of them would be fine. For other one you can fit modes
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#369 - 2015-04-28 05:38:12 UTC
As said before in the thread (page 5 or whatever), I would very much welcome that Ishtar lose their tracking and range bonus for Sentries. That would be much more helpful to put it back into place with other HAC than the slight dps nerf it received recently.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Lodinko
Standings Consortium
#370 - 2015-04-28 07:15:30 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
As said before in the thread (page 5 or whatever), I would very much welcome that Ishtar lose their tracking and range bonus for Sentries. That would be much more helpful to put it back into place with other HAC than the slight dps nerf it received recently.


Apparently removing clever ways of using game mechanics like garage cynos is more important for ccp than doing something good
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#371 - 2015-04-29 05:13:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Joanna RB wrote:
The problem here was the ill thought out introduction of drone damage amplifiers. All of a sudden, drones changed from a handy secondry weapon (or afk-ratting trick) into primary-weapon DPS territory. However ships were not changed to accommodate the change in role of drones to a primary weapon. Sentries are battleship-grade weapons. The Ishtar having sentries is now like giving the muninn 1400's (or more, unbonused sentries can out-damage unbonused 1400's at both its minimum and maximum range, and out-track them by a HUGE amount). Really the only sub-caps using 5 sentries should be the domi and geddon. Perhaps reducing the bw on heavies to 100 and aiming BC and HAC droneboats at 100 bw would help?

Because drones are the primary weapon for drone boats. That is why they are called Drone Boats.

And again, 5 Sentries on an Ishtar without range and tracking bonus make sentries next to useless against anything below BS.


It should be without either range or tracking. One of them would be fine. For other one you can fit modes


Hack the optimal - Gallente are known for tracking bonuses.

But knowing CCP of late... we'll have to be content with double drone bonuses, omni damage, damage bonuses to non-racial sentries/drones and best in-class range and tracking, with battleship guns on a cruiser hull cherry on top. Roll

Then people wonder why the Light blue section of the graph in my signature takes up 33-50% of the total across most ship types.

Another rendition of the same data, courtesy of Cleanse Serce - http://i.imgur.com/afJycoE.png?1

Butt, of course, the HAC segment most glaringly shows a super balanced gaem.

The logs show nothing. vOv

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#372 - 2015-04-29 06:40:24 UTC
Drones will always appear inflated because the ships that don't have any I can count on one hand. Probably. It's early.

Really for these charts, they need to show us the numbers. Or at the VERY least, a scale and a key to stop guesswork.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#373 - 2015-04-29 06:50:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
I wonder if it is possible to discern between drone usage as secondary weapon system (BS like the Apoc, Abaddon or Sacrilege, Vagabond) and primary weapons system (like Worm, Gila, Dominix, Ishtar, Vexor). That graph should be somewhat different. Will it sill fit the narrative to suit the argument?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#374 - 2015-04-29 07:03:34 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I wonder if it is possible to discern between drone usage as secondary weapon system (BS like the Apoc, Abaddon or Sacrilege, Vagabond) and primary weapons system (like Worm, Gila, Dominix, Ishtar, Vexor). That graph should be somewhat different. Will it sill fit the narrative to suit the argument?



Likely, although cruisers will change a lot because of med rails. I preferred this style of chart anyway.

http://i.imgur.com/yfeQpc4.jpg
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#375 - 2015-04-29 14:53:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
afkalt wrote:
Drones will always appear inflated because the ships that don't have any I can count on one hand. Probably. It's early.

Really for these charts, they need to show us the numbers. Or at the VERY least, a scale and a key to stop guesswork.


I agree in principle on some ship types, but other HACs' drone bays and bandwidth is negligible.

It's a graph released with the sentiment that Battleship and Battlecruiser usage is gud. Well, no more graphs for you in the future guys. (☞ ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)☞


http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/balance-changes-coming-in-scylla/
Quote:
THE ISHTAR

The problem: Ishtars are too good. They are squashing out diversity in several environments because of their excellent damage projection and solid survivability

Our thoughts: - First, we wanted to establish whether the problem was more about the Ishtar or more about Sentry Drones. The data makes a pretty convincing case that it really is mostly the Ishtar. While several other ships (Dominix, Navy Vexor, Archon, etc.) are making use of sentries, none of them are anywhere near as sentry reliant as the Ishtar and none of them are coming close to the overall damage that Ishtars represent on TQ. After deciding to just make a change to Ishtars, we considered what approach would be the most elegant. Options included changes to the bonuses, changes to base attributes (moving a mid slot was one example here), or possibly screwing around with sentry drone bandwidth use and adjusting other ships as needed. Eventually we settled on the bonuses, even though it means having the only drone damage bonus below 10% per level in the game.

Changes:

10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage becomes 10% bonus to Light, Medium, and Heavy Drone hitpoints and damage, 5% bonus to Sentry Drone hitpoints and damage


So projection and solid survivability is a an issue, so we reduce damage a little.

Brilliant.

It's like Odyssey 1.1 Patch notes got lost in time. (✿◠‿◠)

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