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Suggestion for the Orthrus

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Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#21 - 2015-04-26 18:03:42 UTC
Suitonia wrote:
My proposal is, despite the Orthrus being absolutely dominating right now (no pun intended) that RLML Damage per clip is reduced.

No. RLMLs are in a good place, and the Orthrus is fine as it is.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mario Putzo
#22 - 2015-04-26 18:33:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
And all of those fits will get dunked by a Phantasm, whats your point? Orthrus is fine, it is good at taking select engagements, and poor in other areas, just like most other ships in the game. If it was so dominant everyone would be using them...but they aren't they are using Ishtars, Vexors, Vexor Navies, and pretty much anything and everything that has drone bonuses.

Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#23 - 2015-04-26 18:34:59 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that.

And the plot thickens...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Khanaesh
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#24 - 2015-04-26 23:18:47 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that.

And the plot thickens...


What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#25 - 2015-04-27 01:13:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Khanaesh wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that.

And the plot thickens...


What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter?
Probably the part where it has very fast missiles for the drones and a decently long point to keep the drone boat locked down even at their extended-ish engagement ranges.
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2015-04-27 02:05:36 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
13kr1d1 wrote:

People often fail to do that whole "counter build" thing, even though its reasonable. That said, the Orthrus is still wildly powerful, and we need some dulling of the pointy sticks.


I will continue to disagree with this.

Lets look at some other Pirate Cruisers.

The Stratios. 600+ DPS, 70K EHP Tank, Cov Ops Cloak, Scanning Bonuses
The Phantasam 600DPS+ 40K EHP Tank,100mn AB

Both of these ships produce more DPS than even a HAM Orthrus, with better tanks, Both of these ships are capable of countering Orthrus at ITS Range (Phantasm with Beams, Stratios with Drones) OR The Orthrus is out of its point Range applying DPS in which case both can leave.

This isn't even getting started on the vast array of ships that have similar strengths and weaknesses at the T1 level (cruisers) let alone the T2 level (Frigs/Dessies/Cruisers) or the T3 Level (Dessies/Cruisers) or the BC level.

Yes the Orthrus is a great hunter ship, it is very good at finding and holding prey, and in many cases the unprepared (aka specifically targeted) prey get destroyed. This is what hunter ships are very good at doing. In a situation where an Orthrus is exposed to any risk I can think of a dozen Cruiser and under ships that can take it on and walk away.

FYI 100mn Beam Phantasm is the hard counter to Orthrus. It reduced is applied DPS by over 70%, it is faster with an AB than the Orthrus with MWD. Stratios is a soft counter it can hit the Orthrus in any range the Orthrus can keep it pointed, with near perfect application itself.

Orthrus is not OP or wildly powerful. It has a niche use, and it is very good in that role. In almost all other cases it is just a ship...

And this of course is ignoring entirely that EVE is not a solo game, and looking at stuff in a vacuum is stupid.


THIS. So much this.
Mario Putzo
#27 - 2015-04-27 02:22:43 UTC
Khanaesh wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that.

And the plot thickens...


What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter?


Its ability to point and engage at long ranges while having a high velocity to help reduce sentry drone tracking. Due to how drone fleets typically function (kite, warp to ping if something gets to close, abandon/launch new drones, repeat) the Mordus ships in general function as great tackle and offensive ships against them.

Khanaesh
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2015-04-27 02:24:36 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Khanaesh wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that.

And the plot thickens...


What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter?
Probably the part where it has very fast missiles for the drones and a decently long point to keep the drone boat locked down even at their extended-ish engagement ranges.


How does the missile velocity help with drones? Why is the point range bonus important for countering drones?
Khanaesh
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2015-04-27 02:30:10 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Khanaesh wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that.

And the plot thickens...


What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter?


Its ability to point and engage at long ranges while having a high velocity to help reduce sentry drone tracking. Due to how drone fleets typically function (kite, warp to ping if something gets to close, abandon/launch new drones, repeat) the Mordus ships in general function as great tackle and offensive ships against them.



How do the proposed changes stop the orthrus from doing this?
Mario Putzo
#30 - 2015-04-27 03:00:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Khanaesh wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Khanaesh wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that.

And the plot thickens...


What part of its kit makes it a drone boat counter?


Its ability to point and engage at long ranges while having a high velocity to help reduce sentry drone tracking. Due to how drone fleets typically function (kite, warp to ping if something gets to close, abandon/launch new drones, repeat) the Mordus ships in general function as great tackle and offensive ships against them.



How do the proposed changes stop the orthrus from doing this?


Never said they did. Just pointed out that Orthrus performs well against a certain type of ship that is clearly the dominant meta right now read into that what you will.
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-04-27 03:17:42 UTC
+1 agreed

Been around since the beginning.
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#32 - 2015-04-30 15:05:58 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:


Never said they did. Just pointed out that Orthrus performs well against a certain type of ship that is clearly the dominant meta right now read into that what you will.


The Orthrus performs well against every single ship in the game. It is un-matched in both Offensive and Defensive applications, It does better than Blaster Cruiser DPS out to it's lock range with perfect application while it has charges. It has every defensive skirmish bonus in the game, Bonused Defensive Scram, Utility high neut, 25m3 drones, high speed, on top of actually have very good EHP thanks to high base HP and the ability to fit LSE+XLASB in semi expensive fits 600m~ which means it beats the majority of brawling cruisers at 0km. Despite all the advantages it has to not be at 0km in the first place. It also performs very well in the Tackling role, with bonused point/scram and high agility+speed. Even frigates struggle to run from it, and get 2 shot by it.

The Reason why I suggest a modest damage -> RoF change is that bringing it down from 44k damage to 34k damage before reload would actually make some brawling faction cruisers/high buffer fit T1 Cruisers have more of a chance to kill it at 0km. If the Orthrus has already completely messed up to be at 0km from them, I think this is a very modest change despite all the strengths of the Orthrus as previously listed.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#33 - 2015-04-30 16:34:49 UTC
Rlmls need to be kicked to the gutter and HMLS need a buff!! If that doesnt change the best rlml platform in game (the orthrus) will be op and something like what the op suggested should be put into play.
bunzing heet
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-04-30 17:45:01 UTC
There is nothing wrong with the orthrus it's a great boat and there are still lots of ways to counter it
It does have good speed great dps and application bit it sacrifices on tank it's meant to not get close and hold targets down while killing it the vagabond does this too with better tank just like a cynabal I don't care about further stats I'm just talking out of experience flying these ships
There is nothing wrong with rlm or rhm and I'm getting tired of people complaining about it there are enough small ships capable of tanking rapid lights so nothing wrong there nether
So if you keep dying to a orthrus and or rapid light missiles then maybe you shud change tactics instead of complaining about this perfectly fine ship and a perfectly fine missile weapon system
Just saying

Fly safe keep killing And remember I'm watching you !!!!
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#35 - 2015-04-30 18:11:41 UTC
bunzing heet wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the orthrus it's a great boat and there are still lots of ways to counter it
It does have good speed great dps and application bit it sacrifices on tank it's meant to not get close and hold targets down while killing it the vagabond does this too with better tank just like a cynabal I don't care about further stats I'm just talking out of experience flying these ships
There is nothing wrong with rlm or rhm and I'm getting tired of people complaining about it there are enough small ships capable of tanking rapid lights so nothing wrong there nether
So if you keep dying to a orthrus and or rapid light missiles then maybe you shud change tactics instead of complaining about this perfectly fine ship and a perfectly fine missile weapon system
Just saying


A 45kehp ship (if you passive tank it) with 490dps within 50km with a 42km range point as a t2 fit is a balanced ship for you? Vaga does 300dps at 30km, cyna has no tank and also does no damage past 30.
bunzing heet
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-04-30 18:27:19 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
bunzing heet wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the orthrus it's a great boat and there are still lots of ways to counter it
It does have good speed great dps and application bit it sacrifices on tank it's meant to not get close and hold targets down while killing it the vagabond does this too with better tank just like a cynabal I don't care about further stats I'm just talking out of experience flying these ships
There is nothing wrong with rlm or rhm and I'm getting tired of people complaining about it there are enough small ships capable of tanking rapid lights so nothing wrong there nether
So if you keep dying to a orthrus and or rapid light missiles then maybe you shud change tactics instead of complaining about this perfectly fine ship and a perfectly fine missile weapon system
Just saying


A 45kehp ship (if you passive tank it) with 490dps within 50km with a 42km range point as a t2 fit is a balanced ship for you? Vaga does 300dps at 30km, cyna has no tank and also does no damage past 30.


Here come the stats lol
They all do the same thing kite and kill
Yeh it's faster and has a longer point
lay dps on it and will die
There are a lot of ships better then others within
The same ship class this does not make a ship op unless you want every ship flying same speed doing same dps with the same tank
Don't look at the number try too look at there performance on the server
All I do is PvP and test stuff out so I will stay by my statement nothing wrong with the orthurus

Fly safe keep killing And remember I'm watching you !!!!
Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#37 - 2015-04-30 18:33:27 UTC
bunzing heet wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the orthrus it's a great boat and there are still lots of ways to counter it
It does have good speed great dps and application bit it sacrifices on tank it's meant to not get close and hold targets down while killing it the vagabond does this too with better tank just like a cynabal I don't care about further stats I'm just talking out of experience flying these ships
There is nothing wrong with rlm or rhm and I'm getting tired of people complaining about it there are enough small ships capable of tanking rapid lights so nothing wrong there nether
So if you keep dying to a orthrus and or rapid light missiles then maybe you shud change tactics instead of complaining about this perfectly fine ship and a perfectly fine missile weapon system
Just saying


Brawling fit Vagabonds do LESS DPS than an Orthrus at 0km. And have to risk themselves to web/scrams and being held down. The Vagabond also needs to worry about tracking, risks itself to energy neutralizers, and does next to no DPS outside of 30km. The Cynabal is in the same boat, except Cynabal actually has less EHP than the Orthrus in a lot of cases since it needs to use more of it's ship resources on fittings for anything aside from dual 180mm IIs. (And if you're fitting Dual 180mm IIs on a Cynabal then you do almost half the DPS than an Orthrus does at 0KM!!! 0KM!!!) than the Orthrus does for RLML at 60km. A Cynabal is a free kill for even a remotely well flown and fit Orthrus.

The change I am proposing retains the DPS of the Orthrus at the expense of doing less damage before reloading. I think RLML's are strong but not particulary game breakingly overpowered when they are in a vacuum, when it has 100% bonus to clip damage before reloading however, on a ship with the most defensive skirmish bonuses in the game, which also has almost unmatched offensive power, then yes, RLMLs are OP on the Orthrus).

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o
Lost touch
Make-EVE-Great-Again
NO NEED LOOSE FACE
#38 - 2015-05-02 16:39:44 UTC
good changes bro +1

Orth is cancer

Honestly is it cancer

Fla5hy Red the wrong way, only faster
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#39 - 2015-05-03 09:29:09 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:

Oddly enough Orthrus is one of the better ships for countering drone boats. Fancy that.


Cancer fighting other competing cancer.

http://i.imgur.com/z4ynWV9.png

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#40 - 2015-05-03 10:09:55 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
FYI 100mn Beam Phantasm is the hard counter to Orthrus. It reduced is applied DPS by over 70%, it is faster with an AB than the Orthrus with MWD.

It takes a 100mn phantasm a full minute to reach top speed. If the orthrus is afraid of it it can turn around and let the phantasm overshoot overheated disrupter range. On top of that: if it's a 100mn phant the orth has both the tank and the dps advantage in raw numbers. Although avoiding 70% of incoming dps sounds good on paper it's unlikely to be anywhere near that speed unless it's entering or leaving the fight and will have issues changing ammo and tracking until it turns out of the fight and no one gets blown up.

I don't think highly of 100mn fits.
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