Wormholes

Every third post there is same - "nerf home system income and force ppl farm static" - ... from my PoV this is no help at all ... it will for sure force ppl to go out from safety of their PoS FF, but in the end you still have PvE fleet dropped by PvP fleet and thats not pvp for neither of both sites "fighting", its just slaughter of farmers ... not to mention that most WH entites has other sources of income than farming their home system ...

lets look at system HK are using now as example of how removing isk from WH systems wont work ... capital alts in many different almost dead C5/C6 systems farming while nothing is going on and when something happens they just relog to main chars ...
you cant effectively reduce isk income from single WH to hurt this system because there is only few toons in each of theese systems so each player using this system has ISK share big enough to live with ... if you would want to reduce isk there so much it would actually hurt them you would have to go so low that even farming them as static hole wouldnt be worth ... and even if you somehow managed to remove this type of farming you still have incursions, null sec ratting and as last case there are missions ...

So ... biggest problem i observed to this topic is simple ... too many WH systems with too few ppl living in them ...
For example ... in better days we open up 10 - 15 different C5 wormholes and every single one of them is dead or almost dead (1 active FF of farming alt corp) ... i actually dont remember when we rolled into living C5 or found one in chain last time, but im not here all day long ...
With 500+ C5 WH and amount of players playing this game u cant fill them even half, so how to solve this problem?
Simplest way would be removing some of those WH, but how would you chose which has to go? and how would ppl farming them react? This would be possibility, but its not optimal ...
I think best way to "bring life back" to high WH class systems would be to create lucrative systems for ppl to live in and fight for which would give groups who seek pvp some kind of direction where to find it, because right now it pretty much doesnt matter if you roll C5 or C6 because most of them are empty anyway ...
So here is my bad idea of how to accomplish this:
1) Set limit of active force fields in C5 systems - this would force large entities to move into C6 system where they will be easier to find and fight ... this option would be effective alone, but it might be considered too forceful
2) Create new structure buildable only in C6 WH systems - structure would require long time to be onlined and would be limited to 1 per system.
My idea of structures:
A) Polarizer manufacturing array - structure that allows players to build ship polarizers - temporar modules that could be fitted ship and would work basically like drugs to characters, but would be bound to ship and not to character - this would require new ship slot ... polarizers would be made from sleeper data libraries and blueprints for them would be dropped only from shattered wormholes
B) Sleeper library decoder - temporary (1week) boosts all atributes of character by 1/3/5 for exchange for sleeper data libraries (50M for +1, 200M for +3 and 500M for +5) - this couldnt be created as item, so character would need to be present and decoder in order to get boosts, there would be limited amount of toons boosted at saem time per single of theese structures so nobody could make living of this
C) Wormhole effect creator - structure with long reaload time that would allow players to put chosen wormhole effect into chosen known space system/region/constallation ... it would be "fuelled" by sleepr data libraries same as 2 before this

ADD: all theese ideas are probably too crazy or stupdi or whatever specially with 113 C6 wh systems, so it might be better to create new C7 systems which would be really rare (20 maybe)

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As to the other posts there ...
Multiple statics would definitelly be good for C5/C6 - oen for random C1 to C4 system and one to random C5/C6 system

Mass based spawn range ... this idea from fozzie could create nice content IF there would be anyone living in WH you roll into ... right now its only pain in the ass that wastes time you could use to roll into living WH system

And to the clones ... thats also pretty important .. when you get podded you r gone unlike any other space ... i would solve clones in WH by structure that would have to be filled with bodies bough from NPC for fixed 25M price ... one body = one clone ... and also limited maximum number of bodies you can have + they couldnt be permanently stored in ship, player cant log off or leave ship with bodies in it and while jetissoned they "die"

TL:DR:
Force larger active groups to live in C6 systems where they are easier to be found by groups looking pvp or make it generalyl easier to find someone

This is the only one of those ideas I'd support.

This would be a great opportunity to make use of the new ideas surrounding structures. If you could anchor "clone vats" in a system and then manufacture empty clones for it to use, you'd have a high value target that would draw attackers, and a means by which players wanting to put roots in a system could remove one of the more annoying bits of WH PvP. Whether the manufacture of an item is required or not, there needs to be some resource limiter on the structure's use so that a successful attacker can exhaust the structure's functionality if they're really kicking butt. And just to be clear, I'm not suggesting you be able to use this for clone jumping between wormholes or from known to w-space. You should only spawn at this structure if you're podded in the same system.


I think PvP in lower class wormholes is fine as it is. I live in one and we get plenty of interlopers looking for PvP. If you want to increase C5-C6 PvP then you need to increase the frequency with which wandering holes connect them to highly populated areas of k-space (people can't pvp in a system they can't get to). There also has to be content in there for players with lower SP to do. It's just a fact that a higher bar for entry means fewer people will enter.

CCP needs to take off whatever blinder it is that's making them obsess about PvP metrics and realize that more enticing PvE outside hi-sec will do more to drive PvP than anything else they could do. The most detrimental thing for PvP in eve is the fact that most of space is abandoned. This isn't because there are too many systems. It's because too many players disagree with CCP about what is rewarding enough to risk the loss of ship and pod. If CCP just wants to make a PvP arena game where the only goal is exploding ships, then what's the point of having thousands of systems and a sandbox setting? Just throw everyone in one big system with 0.0 sec and you'll push the stupid "how many ships exploded" metric off the charts.

remove half of all c5 wormholes or more but honestly ccp can't do much about this without breaking the sandbox, this comes mostly down to the players.

About the only good post I've read in this thread. I'm not a game designer and I'm not the most creative person, but I will tell you where the issues lie and where the brainstorming needs to focus on for innovative solutions.

The biggest Fixable issue in Wormholes is Corp Leadership, Corp Management, Corp Priorities. These 3 issues are similar in nature but very different in my opinion.

Corp Leadership, in my opinion is content creators. You need people to do the day-to-day leg work, or you need a leader to command your members to do what needs to be done to find and create content. You need that Hot-**** FC that is dedicated to provide the content and you need to reward that person. A broad suggestion is develop and incentive for people to want to be that person. Maybe some kind of ingame UI to create in-corp teams or group that compete with one another to achieve goals. What group can scan the most and way to reward that group. Tools to promote activity and leadership and competition in-corp. HK Perspective: We are cocky, competitive, and like to fight. It is in our culture to prove yourself and make a name for yourself. When you are consistently useful and proven trustworthy we share the rewards and the workload of High-Level Leadership. People are driven and encouraged to create content and when they do they are recognized and appreciated by the entire corp.

Corp Management: I say this is different from Leadership in my eyes because of what role it plays in corp development. Management is done by a "leader" but it's less about what goes on in game or day to day content. Management is more about strategy and goals. You need a good business strategy, recruitment strategy, and know the importance of out of game tools and services (be an IT guy or have a good IT guy friend). Managing the business side of your corp is one of the biggest downfalls that unsuccessful WH corps have in my opinion. You need to look at your size, your income, and your expenses. Can you really afford a SRP program when you keep dying and learn nothing and not get any better. Probably not. You need to promote ISK self-sufficiency. Unless you plan on being mega bears and have 100% corp ops a very few times per month, The only obvious solution to be successful is to claim all PVP loot for corp. You can you will have so much less PvE, un-fun management workload if you focus your business on harvesting PvP loot and not NPC loot.

Recruitment, Your corp will not survive without recruitment. "But Noobman I don't want to have 300 people and grow massively. I’m happy with my current members" Size is your own decision I'm not promoting the 300man corp. But your corp will not be successful without recruitment. People burn out, Seasons happen and people do other IRL things, School or work get tough and you are going to lose important people. You need to have a stream of new blood in, People that are excited about wormholes. You need media and social presence generally with positive coverage of your achievements, to make yourself look attractive to new recruits.

I know this post is getting long but lastly Management includes Out of game Services. You need a thriving Forums community and social platform to grow your relationships between your members it's not always about Eve. People like to talk about plenty of other things. Jabber or some sort of notification/communication system. You're going to say "Noobman your Ping Warriors disgust me, I don't want to run a corp like that". I'll say to you that you are going to miss out on a lot of potential opportunities. One of those rare occurrences when another PvP group is actually in your Chain or connected to you? You need it for home defense and invasions. You need it for Hyping Up upcoming planned activities. Someone has to manage and administrate all these services.

HK perspective: Business- We run our entire corp from PvP loot. No Taxes on any PvE done in Rage or in the chain (Marauders or w/e people like to die in). Recruitment- We have an amazing Recruitment Director that holds the Principles and Ideals of HK sacred. No matter how much the other Directors disagree with him, he works tirelessly to attract and keep our recruitment flow of new blood coming in (our inactive get purged and can always rejoin if they come back). IT- Ayeson (Historically Myllz) and Franky and myself administrate our IT Services (multiple others moderate our forums). It has always been important to develop and innovate tools to assist in management and services in HK. HK has a thriving Forums community that keeps us close and informed of Corp activates.

(continuing on next post)

OH JESUS NOOB

tl;dr wormholses are fine most of you are just organized and led like **** **** tier scrubs and need to suck less

I agree with NoobMan's corp stuff and ideas. On the other hand, no development solution can fix the fact players will go out of their way to group together and kill stuff together. There's a fundamental mentality problem, one that some people seem to just plain out ignore. Until recently we saw the same thing in K-space, FozzieSov seems to have made some changes in there though; but it's to soon to see the final results of that of course.

Making friends is good and playing together is nice. No question about it. However if you make friends with everyone, then of course there's no one left for all these friendos to shoot. That's just the reality of things. No development solution can fix that.

If the 3 biggest groups gang together and then complain there's no one left to shoot, or that C5-C6 is empty and stale, then perhaps they need to have a look at their own play style. Why don't these groups just engage each other instead? Plenty of PvP opportunities there.

People keep talking about risk adversities and how to address this; but this cannot be done by game changes. People will always find a way around it. At some point QEX, LZHX and HKs just need to go sod it, and engage each other. This "blue donut' play style is the definition of risk adverse. I don't think I'm alone when I say I would have loved to see QEX or HK crash the LZHX party in TDSIN's home and start a proper 3 way brawl. I don't even know if that's ever been done before on such a scale. Have someone seed a hole wait for the assault and then dunk both parties with the ships you secretly seeded yourself as well. Now that would be some epic content right there.

Imagine this, if NC, PL and CFC set each other blue and then complain the situation in K-space is stale, you"d be the first to say "well yea, you set everyone blue". You have thousands of pilots there but you refuse to engage those. The same goes for J-space; the big entities need to step up and create their own content. It's easy to say it's stale when absolutely no responsibility is taken and these bigger groups in J-space actively refuse to engage each other.

That's the problem right there.

Quite honestly; leadership in any of those big 3 groups should just go sod it, we're the biggest and the meanest looking kid on the block, we'll engage the other 2. That would give you plenty of content and rest assured, C5-C6 space would be a lot less stale.

Thats actually a pretty good idea imho.

Btw all of you who are saying that large groups just need to break up, are dellusional. You cant fix things by changing human nature, theres no patch for that. People will always evolve into the most efficient organizations for the environment (which right now is ~200 pvp toons in one hole, and tiny farming crews in others) and if we, or HK, or LH fall apart, others will take our place. Appealing to higher principles doesnt work, never did and never will. This can be "fixed" only through game design, environment and mechanics... for example what Cataca suggested.

Every time HK/LZHX roll into each other we fight and the KB's show that pretty clearly. You can believe that HK and LZHX are perma-blue all you want, but it simply isn't true.

The only times that we are not shooting each other is when we invite each other to go and kill PvE fleets - which has recently been seen in TDSIN's case when I hunted and killed their capital fleet in their home twice in a week. LZHX gave me a lot of intel on their fleet and helped me with the scouting, so HK was more than happy to invite them along for the kills. TSDIN themselves admitted their capital fleets were very poorly defended both times.

It's very interesting that your suggestion to create more content in high class space is for HK, a group not complaining about a lack of content to fight LZHX. It would certainly create more content for HK and LZHX, but what about the other tonnes of C5/C6 corps out there? What should they do for more content?

The thing people need to remember about wormhole space is that you need to work for your content, and that's the reason we all live in high class wormhole space. You can't just roll your static a couple of times and expect content to come out at you, especially with the large number of C5's that exist in the game. Chances are you're going to find very little if you rage roll.

I spend hours scanning target chains, scouting hostile holes, and seeding holes, because I firmly believe that you need to find the content and seek it out, not let it come to you, and that's the sole reason that HK kills as much as it does - because a lot of people have the same attitude as me. They go out and create content. Many other groups are also like this.

Having said all this I am not against any change in high class space, but I do think there is much more to content generation in wormholes that people are forgetting.

I like the denial that HK, SSC, LZX and QEX don't work together all the time.
Or if one of those groups is fighting someone and losing, the denial that they wouldn't call each other for support as seen in this case.
What started as a small skirmish fight between company and ssc, turned into a t3 blobfest when the group resorted for capitals as force multiplier to match SSC's numbers, and the said entity then contacted HK for help.
There are countless examples like this.

High class space is dead because you can't fight any of four amigos, without them contacting each other for help, if they are in any sort of danger that they might lose something (may it be the fight/ships/virginity ect).

C6 space is russian renter empire, with the few active people that currently reside there getting evicted as we speak, by the same people who complain that there is no content in wh's. (W-Space citizen was blue to HK for a period of time)
At this point the 4 amigos are pretty much like the people in nullsec, who call your 30man fleet cowards when you run from their 300man fleet, and the worst part is that they don't realize that they are the problem.

The way I see it this all started when noobman became the main hard knocks content provider/fc/call it whatever u like, as from what it seems he is the one holding these groups together.
2 years ago people would laugh if you would tell them to what high class wh space is today, and say that is never going to happen.

And the same groups who are responsible for the lack of content/people in c5/c6's are now resorting to blaming and trying to change mechanics to how eve works, saying that is the issue, not realizing this was never the issue 2 years ago.
Not to mention to how many groups were evicted from their wormholes to satisfy the said 4 group's thirst for ISK, and are now turned into 1-3 people's personal bear holes with that 1h a day bear time, with a single dread (a mechanic which will hopefully get changed soon).
The proof of them protecting each others bears is simply in the lack of kills/loses from those groups.
QEX has probe alts in most of HK magnetars, yet they haven't logoff trapped them at all, HK could easily kill W-Space citizen bear squads in c6 space, same goes for lazerhawks. You could call it fear of retaliation against their own bears perhaps.
Regardless until a bigger group than these 4 combined comes into high class space, or they start burning each others bear empires down, nothing will change and people will continue to blame irrelevant mechanics like shattered wormholes and mass spawn distance.

The problem is that no one really wants to engage any of those big 3 because you already have impressive fleets and should for some reason something escalate and go south for you, there's a real concern the bat phone will be rang. It's not exactly encouraging people to risk fleets if they'll got bobbed out by the combined fleets you guys so often rock.