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Time to end inter-empire wars? A call for federated Union of Hi-Sec.
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Gilan Isana
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2015-04-25 15:32:36 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Everyone's own banner is the right one. Everyone else's banner is the wrong one. There in lies the problem.


Then create a new, uniting 4 fold banner.

Lol
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#22 - 2015-04-25 15:37:02 UTC
Gilan Isana wrote:
You have clearly missed my point. I am not calling for a dissolution of their own nations. I am calling for a federation of member states that would allow each of the nations to maintain their own structure and identity, but end the pointless wars between them that are draining each empire but not actually achieving anything for any of them.


Then you are calling for nothing that did not already exist with CONCORD.

Quote:
How much more could the empires achieve for themselves and for the whole of human kind if they were to stop killing eachother and work together on science and technology. Perhaps then they could actually make changes and develop tactics to counter outside threats as quickly as we have seen the drifters manage.


We were doing that over most of the last century after CONCORD was founded. That era only ended half a decade ago when certain groups decided to break the interstellar treaties they had signed.

Our cluster can work together, and did. Making some new banner will not change that, because the member states will have to want peace, they will have to want to uphold their obligations and treaties. Right now, several don't.
Tabor Murn
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2015-04-25 15:41:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tabor Murn
Gilan Isana wrote:

You have clearly missed my point. I am not calling for a dissolution of their own nations. I am calling for a federation of member states that would allow each of the nations to maintain their own structure and identity, but end the pointless wars between them that are draining each empire but not actually achieving anything for any of them.

How much more could the empires achieve for themselves and for the whole of human kind if they were to stop killing eachother and work together on science and technology. Perhaps then they could actually make changes and develop tactics to counter outside threats as quickly as we have seen the drifters manage.

Again, "The whole is greater than the sum of the parts"


"I'm not calling for a dissolution of nations. I am calling for all nations to give up their sovereignty. To allow them to maintain their own structure and identity by replacing it with my own preferred structure and identity which is conveniently similar to one of the existing cultures!"

No thank you. The Republic has shown we're not interested in joining a federation. What you propose would only be different superficially from Pilot Kernher's reclaiming.

*edited to correct a mistaken assumption on my part*
Gilan Isana
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#24 - 2015-04-25 15:59:47 UTC
Tabor Murn wrote:


"I'm not calling for a dissolution of nations. I am calling for all nations to give up their sovereignty. To allow them to maintain their own structure and identity by replacing it with my own preferred structure and identity which is conveniently similar to one of the existing cultures!"

No thank you. The Republic has shown we're not interested in joining a federation. What you propose would only be different superficially from Pilot Kernher's reclaiming.

*edited to correct a mistaken assumption on my part*



Then enjoy fighting the drifters and seekers alone
Gilan Isana
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#25 - 2015-04-25 16:01:48 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:


We were doing that over most of the last century after CONCORD was founded. That era only ended half a decade ago when certain groups decided to break the interstellar treaties they had signed.

Our cluster can work together, and did. Making some new banner will not change that, because the member states will have to want peace, they will have to want to uphold their obligations and treaties. Right now, several don't.



Were doing that. . . . . . . era ... ended. . . . . .. did

and we need to get back to that in the face of the current threats. the cluster will burn.
Gilan Isana
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#26 - 2015-04-25 16:14:31 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
the member states will have to want peace, they will have to want to uphold their obligations and treaties. Right now, several don't.


Want peace? Or have 'peace' between the empires forced on them by a new and common enemy in the face of which they will be destroyed unless they go back to working together.

A time will come, when by design, or will of the people, or common enemy, the empires will have to work together, band together in a loose or formal coalition.

Mine and my families campaign will continue until that day arrives.
Tabor Murn
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2015-04-25 16:25:46 UTC
Gilan Isana wrote:

Then enjoy fighting the drifters and seekers alone


If you had ever seen my wife in action, you'd realize that Minmatar do our finest work while fighting alone.
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2015-04-25 16:46:08 UTC
Your ideas are not new. Your reasons are sound, but they are not new.

CONCORD in conjunction with the Empire, State, Republic and Federation have had multiple chances to create peace. They could have used any number of credible threats as a focal point to sue for an end to pointless and wasteful conflicts that plague our governments. Not only are they guilty of malfeasance by not doing so, they are guilty of creating a system where war is the main economic engine of the galaxy.

"At least CONCORD keeps the jump gates working." Even that adage has been proven wrong when we look at a nav computer showing us the Jovian systems. Look at how they've handled everything from Bloodraiders to Rouge Drones to Sansha to the Drifters. Their efforts are like trying to bandage a tumor. It looks pretty, but it does nothing to stop the cancer growing within.

Peace will eventually happen between the Four. Even if no side actually "wins" the cost of war will grow so bloated that the system will collapse. Eventually, the Four will find a path to peaceful co-existence. But there can be no peace while there is a system in place that grows in wealth and power off the culture of war we all live in. That system is CONCORD.

If you want to end the inter-empire wars, remove the system that is pulling the strings.





"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#29 - 2015-04-25 16:56:02 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Gilan Isana wrote:
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
With respect, this idea is already in motion - It's called CONCORD.

Things have recently not, unfortunately, been going very well for it.


CONCORD is a construct, perhaps initially created by the 4 empires, but really it is independent of them and has no allegiance to any or all of the Empires.

CONCORD has not stopped the skirmishes, border conflicts, and battles between empires - take the Gallente destruction of the "shegiru", Caldari Navy Titan above Caldari Prime in Luminaire as a prime example. CONCORD simply declared they would not get involved in the system for a day and let the empires (and capsulers) fight it out themselves.

And as you say, things have not been going well for them!! The citezens of Hi-sec and the empires deserve more than CONCORD - a true alliance and federation of empire states.


CONCORD was concieved, and has largely functioned, as a government-of-governments in the vein you are describing here. A regulatory body to determine and subsequently enforce international law, facilitate trade, and ease tensions by solving issues diplomatically. I believe it's founder did envision it's power growing over time and slowly rivaling and surpassing the powers within it, to the point that it would, after many, many years, unite humanity in full.

For a long time, it looked very much like this might eventually happen.

Then the Elder fleet blew it up. And the rest of the Empire scorned it's authority in the aftermath.

CONCORD has not failed. Rather, the great powers of the cluster have decided they do not want to be a part of it's vision. Foolishly, in my personal opinion, but there it is. That example you cited from the battle of Caldari Prime - I was there, and I am afraid you've missed one pivotal detail. CONCORD withdrew from the system not because they didn't want to get involved, but because the State Navy blew up one of it's ships. With a doomsday.

The Empires do not "deserve" better, because they do not want better. That is, regrettably, simply the state of things.


I... could have not described it better.



Sinjin Mokk wrote:


Peace will eventually happen between the Four. Even if no side actually "wins" the cost of war will grow so bloated that the system will collapse. Eventually, the Four will find a path to peaceful co-existence. But there can be no peace while there is a system in place that grows in wealth and power off the culture of war we all live in. That system is CONCORD.

If you want to end the inter-empire wars, remove the system that is pulling the strings.



When in doubt, blame the messenger ?

If not for CONCORD we may recall, the aftermath of the attack by the Elder Fleet would have ended in a total, full scale war.

So, in your scenario, the four eventually tire up of the war (which sounds unprobable as it's far from being a total war), make a truce, and a few decades later, decide that a new casus belli is in order, and declare war on each other, without the safety guard of CONCORD in the equation ?

I am sure they will find peace.

Like, the peace the dead find most of the time.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#30 - 2015-04-25 17:55:47 UTC
The Caldari already fought one war to secede from such a "Federation" as you desire. We'd fight another to stay out of it.

We don't want to be part of some greater entity. We don't want union with some greater whole. We aren't going to want it just because you call it something different than the "Gallente Federation".
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2015-04-25 18:13:46 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:


When in doubt, blame the messenger ?

If not for CONCORD we may recall, the aftermath of the attack by the Elder Fleet would have ended in a total, full scale war.

So, in your scenario, the four eventually tire up of the war (which sounds unprobable as it's far from being a total war), make a truce, and a few decades later, decide that a new casus belli is in order, and declare war on each other, without the safety guard of CONCORD in the equation ?

I am sure they will find peace.

Like, the peace the dead find most of the time.



You are correct. Without CONCORD in the picture, things would get very bloody, very quickly. Under normal circumstances. However, things are far from normal. We have Sansha incursions. Without CONCORD, incursions would have to be dealt with, not by CONCORD-sanctioned capsuleers, but by naval forces, with loyalist capsuleers assisting. Local governments would also have to deal with their own management of star-gates, step-up anti-piracy and border patrols, deal with threats like the Drifters and Rogue Drones and God-knows-what that crops up from NullSec or Thera. All the while, they'll have to re-structure their own local economies. All out war would be a very foolish and risky proposition. Even decades later, I would think peace could be maintained. The Federation, State and Empire would eventually settle in to a careful triumvirate. And apologies to the Matari, but I don't see the Republic as it is surviving the next few decades in any scenario. Either you will be subsumed by the Federation, or become part of the Empire. Though altruistically, I can see a time where Matari, like Khanid, becomes a full part of the greater Empire, rather than a slave-state of it.

No. We don't need CONCORD. And in the long run, we'll be better off without it.

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2015-04-25 18:36:38 UTC
Uniting everyone under one Faith, so there won't be heathens, won't be wars, we will live in ideal world!!~
Ah, but I am afraid only dreams.

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

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Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

))
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2015-04-25 19:18:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
All the while, they'll have to re-structure their own local economies. All out war would be a very foolish and risky proposition.


Considering all the recent events past YC111, it presumes that 'foolish' and 'risky' are part of their glossary...
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#34 - 2015-04-25 20:28:50 UTC
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#35 - 2015-04-26 22:38:49 UTC
Fellow capsuleers. This plan is already in motion.

Forces of the New Order are working hard for over two years now to unite the people under one flag, one law and one man, our Supreme Protector and father of the New Order, our Saviour James 315.

You can help with the unification process by donating resources, ISK or your time, by becoming a Knight of the New Order you become part of this transforming revolution and unification. I am looking forward to your support.

Ima Wreckyou
Agent of the New Order
Law enforcment division Abudban

Evil RatKid
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#36 - 2015-04-27 01:15:44 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Fellow capsuleers. This plan is already in motion.

Forces of the New Order are working hard for over two years now to unite the people under one flag, one law and one man, our Supreme Protector and father of the New Order, our Saviour James 315.

You can help with the unification process by donating resources, ISK or your time, by becoming a Knight of the New Order you become part of this transforming revolution and unification. I am looking forward to your support.

Ima Wreckyou
Agent of the New Order
Law enforcment division Abudban


James Syagrius wrote:
No.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#37 - 2015-04-27 01:57:19 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Fellow capsuleers. This plan is already in motion.

Forces of the New Order are working hard for over two years now to unite the people under one flag, one law and one man, our Supreme Protector and father of the New Order, our Saviour James 315.

You can help with the unification process by donating resources, ISK or your time, by becoming a Knight of the New Order you become part of this transforming revolution and unification. I am looking forward to your support.

Ima Wreckyou
Agent of the New Order
Law enforcment division Abudban

I think Max has a better shot then you. You guys are pretty much a minor annoyance to everyone who matters....

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#38 - 2015-04-27 05:49:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Tyrel Toov wrote:
I think Max has a better shot then you. You guys are pretty much a minor annoyance to everyone who matters....

I am not sure who Max is, but we all know who James 315 is. It seams that the results of our campaign to restore order and freedom and unification gives us right. The progress we are making in educating our fellow capsuleers can not be ignored and it will lead to a better prepeard capsuleer comunity for whatever thread we will face as a unified people under the New Order and our Saviour James 315.

Evil RatKid
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2015-04-27 12:31:19 UTC
... Who is James 315 ?
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#40 - 2015-04-27 12:49:34 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
... Who is James 315 ?


He runs a protection racket for miners in high security space.
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