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The Sansha Threat: You know, the one nobody is talking about
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Cakzad Arcashiri
Arcashiri Family
#1 - 2015-04-23 13:34:33 UTC
During a recent trip I stumbled into an incursion system. I thought maybe I had misjumped somewhere and had ended up in a Low-Sec System, but no. The Sansha's prescence was massive. And it was only 3 jumps from Amarr.

This made me realize just how effective Sansha's Nation is, and how much of a threat they are. We have ignored them, to concerned with Drifters and Sleepers and ISK. Sansha's Nation is past our borders, they are past our door, they are in the Bedroom. Don't get me wrong, I am very aware of the Drifter/Sleeper 'Threat', but they have not attacked us.

Sansha's Nation has. They have Hideaways in the Amarr System itself, almost complete dominance over a system only 3 jumps from Amarr. All these threats to the Greater Amarria like the Blood Raiders, Sansha's Nation, the Drifters/Sleepers, they are here, and they are winning because we are to busy worrying about things outside our borders.

Now, I am a full-believer in the Faith and that it is the Ammarian's destinies to rule the galaxy as was said by God, but first we have to deal with our own problems, some of which are political (like the Empress).

"I give to you the destiny of Faith,

And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:

Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."

- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 22:13
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#2 - 2015-04-23 14:09:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Once, people hoped the empires would put their differences aside to deal with the Nation a second time.

That hope was forlorn, and remains so.

At least the Nation's incursions seem less concerned with civilian populations, now, and more concerned with us. It's not clear that they've made much progress.

Still, if we can find a way into Sansha Kuvakei's "Promised Land," which, to be clear, doesn't seem to be the system by that name near the Eve Gate, perhaps someone will throw a war fleet together.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#3 - 2015-04-23 14:34:09 UTC
The cluster is filled with threats, including those within our own collective governments. As supportive of them as we may choose to be, if we're honest with ourselves and candid with the cluster, then we would accept and acknowledge that even our own governments have elements in them that are a threat to the cluster in general and people herein.

Nation is most certainly a threat and an ever-present one at this point but where it falls into the spectrum depends on perspective. To some, the Empire is the greatest threat to humanity. To some, the Federation is. To others, it's the Jove, the Sleepers, the Drifters or Nation...

None of us, for all of our vaunted power and immortality, can change the course of the future alone and we are too scattered and independent as individuals to rally behind a single, collective banner and tackle the threats of the cluster as a unified force (indeed there are many among us who have no desire to or would happily aid those threats against the rest of us).

What we can do, what we should do, is never yield and never surrender. The charge to each of us is to strive to do what good we can in what ways and areas we can.

I cannot shape the future alone, but I can strive to be a positive force in the lives around me, the cluster around me and perhaps join with others seeking to do the same.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#4 - 2015-04-23 14:42:32 UTC
Boo.
Johanes Beaumonte
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#5 - 2015-04-23 14:43:05 UTC
Cakzad Arcashiri wrote:


Now, I am a full-believer in the Faith and that it is the Ammarian's destinies to rule the galaxy as was said by God, but first we have to deal with our own problems, some of which are political (like the Empress).


Eh? Problems, polical problems like The Empress?

Sounds like someone else needs to be added to PIE's List by Admiral Lok'ri of those saying bad things about the Empress!
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#6 - 2015-04-23 14:52:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Liam Antolliere wrote:
The cluster is filled with threats, including those within our own collective governments. As supportive of them as we may choose to be, if we're honest with ourselves and candid with the cluster, then we would accept and acknowledge that even our own governments have elements in them that are a threat to the cluster in general and people herein.

Nation is most certainly a threat and an ever-present one at this point but where it falls into the spectrum depends on perspective. To some, the Empire is the greatest threat to humanity. To some, the Federation is. To others, it's the Jove, the Sleepers, the Drifters or Nation...

None of us, for all of our vaunted power and immortality, can change the course of the future alone and we are too scattered and independent as individuals to rally behind a single, collective banner and tackle the threats of the cluster as a unified force (indeed there are many among us who have no desire to or would happily aid those threats against the rest of us).

What we can do, what we should do, is never yield and never surrender. The charge to each of us is to strive to do what good we can in what ways and areas we can.

I cannot shape the future alone, but I can strive to be a positive force in the lives around me, the cluster around me and perhaps join with others seeking to do the same.


Respectfully, Mr. Antolliere, it would be nice if the Nation were just another faction of humanity, another threat for people to argue over the relative importance of.

It really would. But they represent something much more disturbing than just ... well, slavery or death.

They're one man's vision of humanity, revised and edited with a hacksaw-- and then, if their propaganda is to be believed, made immortal as well. Kuvakei is very generous with this blessing. He wants it for all of us, and he might even possibly pull it off if things go his way.

There aren't very many people I'd actually say are better off dead. There are fewer still I'd rather be dead than in the hands of, but, oh, gods, if I ever fall into Nation's clutches, please kill me, and if it doesn't work the first time, do it again and again until it sticks.

The empires joined forces to confront the Nation once before. There was a reason for that. It hasn't disappeared.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#7 - 2015-04-23 14:54:45 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Respectfully, Mr. Antolliere, it would be nice if the Nation were just another faction of humanity, another threat for people to argue over the relative importance of.

It really would. But they represent something much more disturbing than just ... well, slavery or death.

They're one man's vision of humanity, revised and edited with a hacksaw-- and then, if their propaganda is to be believed, made immortal as well. Kuvakei is very generous with this blessing. He wants it for all of us, and he might even possibly pull it off if things go his way.

There aren't very many people I'd actually say are better off dead. There are fewer still I'd rather be dead than in the hands of, but, oh, gods, if I ever fall into Nation's clutches, please kill me, and if it doesn't work the first time, do it again and again until it sticks.

The empires joined forces to confront the Nation once before. There was a reason for that. It hasn't disappeared.


I, personally, would not disagree with you. My point was that many will.

You can preach until you're blue in the face about the pertinent and immediate threat Nation poses to all of humanity and still not convince many among our number that you are speaking relevant truth.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#8 - 2015-04-23 15:07:03 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
I, personally, would not disagree with you. My point was that many will.

You can preach until you're blue in the face about the pertinent and immediate threat Nation poses to all of humanity and still not convince many among our number that you are speaking relevant truth.

Respectfully, that's ... well, true. But it feels like it's hardly useful to say. I think I used to do sort of that very thing, with pretty much those results.

It seems as though a lot of our current inaction has to do with the difficulties in going on the offensive, though. We're stuck on defense. Considering that, I gather, there are a fair few pilots who make a career out of repelling Incursions, I'm not sure cooperation would get us much further.

Now, if we do find a way into Kuvakei's home base, and somebody takes it as an opportunity to sucker punch a rival fleet instead of taking the chance to end the Nation as a threat, that will be a truly sad day. The same goes for someone finding a way to the "Promised Land" and dismissing its importance.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#9 - 2015-04-23 15:18:40 UTC
......

Forgive me for saying what was "hardly useful to say" then, Mademoiselle Jenneth.

There was more to the post, such as the encouragement to stay focused and to never get discouraged over the obstacles we seem to face in uniting behind specific causes, and the suggestion to focus on doing what good we can do no matter how small we are...

...but, sure, overall useless to say. I'll refrain from making similar comments in the future.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#10 - 2015-04-23 15:19:13 UTC
You know the fun thing is, is that is exactly how that would go down. You can say that The Master represents many things, many of them scary to some, but one thing he does undeniably represent is the idea of Unity, which all of the so-called Free Willed Capsuleers do not. And you WILL need to rely on Capsuleers, which should, if anything, scare you more than we do.

And that is what makes Nation strong.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#11 - 2015-04-23 15:30:13 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
You know the fun thing is, is that is exactly how that would go down. You can say that The Master represents many things, many of them scary to some, but one thing he does undeniably represent is the idea of Unity, which all of the so-called Free Willed Capsuleers do not. And you WILL need to rely on Capsuleers, which should, if anything, scare you more than we do.

And that is what makes Nation strong.



He represents "unity" under his leadership and in his idea of what humanity should be and he represents bringing about that unity by force, if necessary. That's not unity, that's submission, that's enslavement. Dress it up as pretty as you like, it will not change the nature of what it is.

Capsuleers may not represent "unity," but we do represent freedom of choice and what can happen with individuals rally together to accomplish great goals and make no mistake, we have and will continue to accomplish great things when we put our minds to it.

I would choose that over your vaunted "unity," any time.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2015-04-23 15:32:42 UTC
Capsuleers are the main test subjects in the Anarchy experiment.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#13 - 2015-04-23 15:34:08 UTC
Funny how, when your vaunted master went silent, so many jumped like rats from a sinking ship Tiberious.
and after he named your alliance as the capsuleer 'friends of nation' too.

Unity indeed.

you know my stance on your rather obviously incorrect claims, so I won't go into them further here.

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#14 - 2015-04-23 15:41:38 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:
You know the fun thing is, is that is exactly how that would go down. You can say that The Master represents many things, many of them scary to some, but one thing he does undeniably represent is the idea of Unity, which all of the so-called Free Willed Capsuleers do not. And you WILL need to rely on Capsuleers, which should, if anything, scare you more than we do.

And that is what makes Nation strong.



He represents "unity" under his leadership and in his idea of what humanity should be and he represents bringing about that unity by force, if necessary. That's not unity, that's submission, that's enslavement. Dress it up as pretty as you like, it will not change the nature of what it is.

Capsuleers may not represent "unity," but we do represent freedom of choice and what can happen with individuals rally together to accomplish great goals and make no mistake, we have and will continue to accomplish great things when we put our minds to it.

I would choose that over your vaunted "unity," any time.


If you are choosing capsuleers to represent freedom of choice, then I really think that makes my point for me in regards to the worth of freedom.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#15 - 2015-04-23 15:44:49 UTC
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


If you are choosing capsuleers to represent freedom of choice, then I really think that makes my point for me in regards to the worth of freedom.


As usual, you've got it backwards.

I'm choosing the freedom to be capsuleers over your "Master's" vision of humanity because I would rather accept capsuleers as a byproduct of that freedom than be forced into Kuvakei's idea of a utopia.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Tootenh'amon
#16 - 2015-04-23 15:46:20 UTC
I'm torn. On the one hand, Sansha and his fleets are of course great, yet underestimated threats, present on a daily basis. On the other, seing Amarrians oppose slavery so vehemently, makes me chuckle.
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#17 - 2015-04-23 15:49:50 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


If you are choosing capsuleers to represent freedom of choice, then I really think that makes my point for me in regards to the worth of freedom.


As usual, you've got it backwards.

I'm choosing the freedom to be capsuleers over your "Master's" vision of humanity because I would rather accept capsuleers as a byproduct of that freedom than be forced into Kuvakei's idea of a utopia.


I accept that our visions are incompatible.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#18 - 2015-04-23 16:36:56 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
......

Forgive me for saying what was "hardly useful to say" then, Mademoiselle Jenneth.

There was more to the post, such as the encouragement to stay focused and to never get discouraged over the obstacles we seem to face in uniting behind specific causes, and the suggestion to focus on doing what good we can do no matter how small we are...

...but, sure, overall useless to say. I'll refrain from making similar comments in the future.

... I've given offense.

I apologize, Mr. Antolliere. My ... words came from frustration. The thing you pointed to is just exactly the problem we've been facing where the Nation is concerned. It was true before Kuvakei returned. It was true when he returned. It was true when the Incursions began. It's true now.

The family's squabbling while the apartment's on fire.

It's ... maddening. It's just maddening.
Maria Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#19 - 2015-04-23 16:45:07 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:


If you are choosing capsuleers to represent freedom of choice, then I really think that makes my point for me in regards to the worth of freedom.


As usual, you've got it backwards.

I'm choosing the freedom to be capsuleers over your "Master's" vision of humanity because I would rather accept capsuleers as a byproduct of that freedom than be forced into Kuvakei's idea of a utopia.


Yep! And besides none of the people who follow the Master ever smile! Well.. except Tiberious who only does so sardonically!

Some Utopia! *she shudders*
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#20 - 2015-04-23 16:50:07 UTC
Tootenh'amon wrote:
I'm torn. On the one hand, Sansha and his fleets are of course great, yet underestimated threats, present on a daily basis. On the other, seing Amarrians oppose slavery so vehemently, makes me chuckle.


That's just it. It's not conventional slavery. It's directly editing a person until their only option is to be placid and obedient. And maybe even outwardly happy. ... While, very likely, the rest of the mind is screaming.

The Amarr practice slavery. Very well. So do the Angels, Serpentis, Blood Raiders (why do the Matari count them as allies? I'll have to find out if I get to visit.), and even the Guristas, I guess.

Kuvakei's people practice ... something else.

I wouldn't want to be anybody's slave. Even for a kind master, it would be horrible. ... but I could probably live with it. Billions do, after all, and, rhetoric aside, there's little reason to think they want to die.

But the Nation? Death first. Please. No, really....
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