Intergalactic Summit

My belief is that, as much as we might want this war to end, it will not end as long as Roden shipyards is making money for it. The Federation has advanced no negotiating position.

Nor are any demands that involve ceding territory or political control of State territory or institutions acceptable. As I'm sure you've noticed, it is the policy of many Federation personnel that the war will not be won until the State is absorbed and destroyed by the Federation, or at least it's government replaced by a system instituted by the Federation (Soter, for example, expressed the latter implicitly in his GMVA thread).

I would, and I suspect almost all Caldari would, fight to the death before agreeing to the above. At this point, this war is essentially a defensive one for us.

So if you want to know what my position is, I propose that the borders, aside from Caldari Prime, be reset to pre-Empyrean war borders, and that both sides agree to a yearly summit to consult on issues which concern both sides.

Until then, sadly, all Federation loyal-capsuleers and personnel are considered by me to be targets of opportunity.

I'd be more than happy to a solution that saw an end to the Militia war and an acknowledgement of territorial rights on both sides.

I still maintain that the State has enough territory and a lot of development work to be done to improve that territory to standards we could all be proud of. The constant drain of resources on watching our neighbour is something we could well do without.

Msr. Vikarion, I thank you for reply and will answer in kind. As none of us are in any position to speak for our respective governments my questions was more focused on the personal. We may after all talk until we are blue about possible solutions to no avail.. What can each of us do individually to promote an equitable and fair settlement, if such is our goal.


The same might be said of many of the States Mega Corporations. If I am not mistaken several of them have made tidy sums from the forever war. I suppose in the interest of fairness you would ask the same of them?


That may be the position of some, including a few of your comrades in arms. But of course certainly not all. But… I will revisit the topic of territory when addressing your position on the disposition of Caldari Prime.


It is a defensive war for you now. I think that needs to be remembered. As to “fighting to the death”. Brave sentiments indeed but basically coded language for give us what we want or else. While a comfortable negotiating positon to be sure, rarely effective. This sort of zero sum philosophy does not serves to promote peace or even the cessation or reduction of hostilities.


A position at least where discussion may begin. However. In your point above you stated. “Nor are any demands that involve ceding territory or political control of State territory or institutions acceptable.” And yet this is exactly what you’re asking the Federation to do. I am a man of commerce Msr. Vikarion, and in any equitable deal everyone gets something. If the State wants Caldari Prime and peace then they will need to cede something. Honor after all demands it.

I look forward to your thoughts.

1.
Mr. Sygarius, precisely what territory am I asking the Federation to cede? Caldari Prime? Aside from the fact that only someone who validates the politics of Luc Duvalier can justify the original seizure of it, your own Senate - which seems to want peace a great deal more than your president - has agreed with the CEP/Ishukone to declare it a demilitarized zone, and essentially neutral ground for both parties.

So, what precisely do you propose? That if we return to pre-Empyrean war territory, you want all of Caldari Prime back? What then, when the pendulum swings the other way, as the pendulum has repeatedly swung? Do we then demand that all Gallente citizens leave Caldari Prime? Or since Caldari Prime being a neutral zone apparently is the default, do we demand portions of Gallente Prime, just to be "fair"? This is how a war goes on forever.

For the moment, Caldari Prime seems to be resolved to a reasonable level of satisfaction. Would I like to see it transferred entirely to the control of the State? Absolutely. But I think that this is best done peacefully, and by economic incentives, rather than force. And if you think it is unfair that the Federation should have to give up a planet, even with the promise of vast sums of money to its citizens, well, I'm sure the Caldari State can find you some cold wet rock to exchange.


2.
As for Caldari corporations making a profit, the problem with that interpretation is that the State is not separate from its corporations. The corporations fund the military, which means that profits on selling military hardware to the Caldari Navy are the same as losses in contributions to the Caldari Navy. This makes the State more resilient, militarily, than the other nations of the cluster, as a total war footing can be easily achieved, but it also means that the State makes its military hardware profits by selling to other nations, such as the Minmatar, the Khanid Kingdom, the Intaki Syndicate, the Amarr Empire, and others. The current economic growth the State is experiencing is a result of the resurgence of our high-tech and industrial sectors, which are both advanced and efficient.

Gallente Megacorporations, on the other hand, are separated from those they sell to, militarily. The entire Federation could go bust (theoretically, not likely) buying ships from Roden Shipyards, with Roden Shipyards becoming fabulously wealthy (well, more so). Which means that, in terms of incentives, Gallente military contractors have an interest in making sure their own government needs their product, while in the State, that incentive is reduced by the fact that you are, in essence, buying every railgun from yourself.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Roden Shipyards or Creodron want the war to go on forever, but it would certainly be in their financial interest to try to keep it going as long as it can.


3.
When I refer to what the Caldari would fight to the death for, I am referring to the policy of some or many Federation loyalists that the State must be fought until it surrenders to assimilation into the Federation, or introduces a democratic regime, or cedes territory to the point of making the State no longer a power in the cluster. I simply don't see those things happening without the Caldari deciding to exercise total war.

And Federation loyalists may think that the Caldari are all secretly lusting after membership in the Federation, or their own democracy, but, so far as anyone in the State can tell, they aren't. Heth didn't have to do too much to get the Caldari population riled up about Caldari Prime, and conversely, it was the threat Heth presented to our system that caused popular and corporate outrage to take him down. It's a highly doubtful proposition that anyone from the Gallente Federation would prove more appetizing or convincing than one of our own.


4.
It seems to me that one of the benefits of my solution would be to simply decide that past wrongs have to be dealt with peacefully, and that returning to a neutral state of affairs is the best possible choice. It seems to me that it's quite possible for a Gallente loyalist to concentrate on the wrongs done to the Gallente, such as the invasion. Yet, while much weight seems to be placed on the harms done to the Gallente, the wrongs they have committed are almost entirely ignored. Why is it that a Nyx ramming a station in time of peace is not to be counted? Let's suppose that it was entirely the work of an impostor. One would still fault Gallente security and operations for the complete lack of safeguards in any such situation, much less such a delicate one. Or the fact that the Caldari year-long occupation of the warzone was, if not entirely perfect, at least fairly even-handed ((Chronicle: The Ever-Turning Wheels)), while the Gallente occupation had Gallente forces rampaging across worlds killing civilians and shooting escaping civilian transports ((EvE World News, Templar One)).

I could say that the above should result in the Federation paying reparations to the Caldari, just as you might insist that the invasion of Caldari Prime should result in reparations to the Federation. And we could haggle on about who is more to fault, whether killing about 300,000 Caldari civilians is a cause for war or is the Federation's fault, or how much damage the respective occupations did.

Or, we could just decide to zero the account, before we build up the sort of reservoir of hatred that the Amarr and Minmatar have towards each other.

I've always held that the only purpose in seeking to understand an enemy isn't to make peace, but to more effectively overcome them armed with knowledge. Peace is a strategic tool, not an aim in and of itself.

That said, I fail to understand what purpose exists in either understanding the motives or hatred out of ignorance of another when one has to kill and prosecute force and violence. If one has to kill, then kill with the clarity of your own reasons why, no point waxing right or wrong about it to others.

Given the specific parameters of this war, I actually think that it is winnable by the State, but not by the Federation. The State has, historically, been very, very good at long, drawn-out wars, and all the better when on the defensive. As the low-sec territories for the Caldari are rather sparsely populated and exploited, and the low-sec areas for the Federation include some core systems, I think this puts the impact potential of the war in the favor of the State.

That said, winning a long, drawn-out war might be advantageous for the State, but would it be as advantageous as coming to a peaceful agreement over the same period of time? Probably not. And our responsibility is to do what is best for the State, not what is worst for the Federation.

Moreover, suppose we achieved some sort of total, overwhelming victory. What would we even do with it? We already have a new territory to expand into - Black Rise - and it's not like the Caldari people are lusting after new populations to induct into our fold. That's not really our way, is it? If nothing else, imagine all the trouble trying to rebuild Caille into looking properly formidable, utilitarian, and asymmetrical. Not to mention the bulk orders of earplugs we would have to buy to deal with the whining from the locals.

Even assuming we wanted the land just to have it, which would be inefficient and pointless, there's also the fact that we want the Federation out of our business, and to stop trying to undermine our government, but we really don't want them gone. They are a useful counterbalance to the Amarr, and it would be very unfortunate to have to turn from finishing off the Federation (assuming we could) to fighting off an attempt at Reclaiming.

No, I judge that my responsibility is to advocate what is best for the State, not what is worst for the Federation. I think that, even given the possibility of a swift, but necessarily overwhelming victory, we might do well to consider alternatives. Given that the most likely event is a long, tiring, bloody conflict in which the Gallente eventually give in just because they are tired of fighting, well, I suspect that peace is much more preferable to a long and useless drain on our resources, assuming the grounds I already mentioned were accepted.

To claim the current war cannot be won due to its present phase of conflict-by-proxy under CONCORD regulation seems like putting the cart before the horse when the true struggle and contest between State and Federation has not even yet taken place. Oh no, CEWMPA is not designed to be won, and it was never agreed to in my mind with the intentions of victory or defeat. It is nothing more than a preamble to further escalation by its participants, and one needs only look to the rapid development of new armaments and the military buildups on both sides of the border that the impetus is towards a future escalation of the war, where resolution will be found through violence one way or another. I doubt all the current weapons being forged will be beaten into plowshares anytime soon - if at all.

That is just a reality I have had to accept, for I recognize I have no power, influence or authority to change it, nor the intelligence to change minds or the eloquence to sway hearts to the contrary. As a simple and uncomplicated soldier the only words of eloquence I am left with that describe my current thoughts and feelings are in the Old De'teeas of an Oriyoni play:

Kaalakiota has made a sword of me, so I shall have war freely unsheathed as befits my nature, a destroyer of men, than to know a shackle of peace in the scabbard. For war exceeds peace, as day is to night, better a life of death in vigor, with heat in my blood, than a contemptible death of life mired in apathy and lethargy, like the fetid swamp from which your breath a foul air corrupts. Curse me as the Father of your orphans? May the Winds damn your city of bastards screaming!

The Minmatar have a sovereign nation, they don't need to be part of us and never have shown interest in such an arrangement.

The truth is subjective.

We have yet to ban milk.

Your quote makes no sense.

The Gallante have always been good to me, majority of my private funding and moral support came from a Gallante corporation. I won't say they're perfect however, far from it. Then again perfections just a state of mind...

Well said...