Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I think Nikk is trying to get to this point with Lucas.



Problem is Lucas doesn't want to have that discussion at all, so he obstinately refuses to let the conversation go there.

I think you are correct though, and we don't even need to drag in the issue of expensive hulls/modules (hey, no making assumptions there ) because nobody likes going into a fight they know they can't win and current PvE leads to the following strategy:

1. Fit a rat specific tank (which means the PvE ship has huge holes in its tank and PvPers will know this and exploit it).
2. Because of this, evasion is always the best strategy--i.e. it is dominant.
3. With the current sov mechanics unless it is a very large gang, going to a safe and waiting out the hostiles.

In some instances if you have enough people logged on you might ping for a response fleet, but chances are by the time you get enough people and get them into fleet the hostiles will have buggered off because boredom.

Now, we could look at making changes so fitting an omni/PvP-esque fit for ratting is the norm. Problem is there is still the numbers issue. The hostile could be the scout and engaging him might just be courting disaster in many cases. Even if you have a PvP fit and ceptor warps into your anomaly you'd probably be best served by scooting to safety if you can. Chances are a ceptor by itself wont take down a reasonably PvP fit ishtar, domi, etc. So it is very reasonable to conclude there are more bad guys on the way. A T3 might be a match for said PvE pilot, so that might be reasonable to take that fight, but then even 1 or 2 more people showing up and the fight is a foregone conclusion.

So the idea of inducing the PvE pilot in the anomaly to stay and put up a fight might be problematic.

However, we also have 3 above. Instead of having mechanics set up so that waiting out the hostiles be a strategy with more consequences than are currently in game. Maybe that is where the focus needs to be. Hostile gang comes into your area, you spot them fairly early on thanks to the OA, and because of Fozziesov you have more people in your alliance so forming that response fleet is more of a thing. Now the hostiles can have the fun they were looking for as can the sov holders.

No, because to be a dominant strategy, no other strategy must exist which would give a greater benefit. The fact is that better strategies exist, but players choose not to use them because it involves doing things they may not find fun. Those that choose to fight back can sometimes kill the hostile which will make them think twice about coming back.

True, but in this case you're talking about a cosmetic change. At it's core the basic principle of [Detect hostile arrival] -> [React] still exists, and that's the entire process required to make a decision for most PvE players. Changing how that detection is delivered changes nothing about their strategy.

That would be nice, but the fact is you're talking about getting people who like to PvE to do PvP, something they don't necessarily enjoy, and you're expecting the hostiles to fight rather than playing hide and seek games for hours - something which is a serious problem right now. I can't even count the number of times people just dock up and tell those considering forming up a response fleet to stop simply because the player will hang around for eternity jumping in and out of cloak 100km away while warping and refusing to engage. Again, the problem is that most of the time the hostiles want to kill ratters, not fighters - and the ratters want to rat, not fight.

You keep saying this, but then insist that no player will implement any other strategy. In short, all players must be irrational because they are not going with their best response. Given I doubt this conclusion, I have to doubt your insistence that there are better strategies.



Yes I am. I'm saying that after such changes the idea of the dedicated PvE player in null will likely go the way of the dodo. If you are going to PvE in null you will also have to PvP in null, most likely not at the same time, but you'll have to wear both hats. And in fact, most PvP pilots do, do some PvE. But the notion of having just dedicated PvE pilots....nope. So, if they refuse...well there is a term for that, boot them from corp/alliance.

You forget a cloak will no longer ensure absolute safety. We don't know how the pin pointing will work, but the changes are supposed to make current tactics at the very least, less viable.

And at the end of the day, if it is just 1 guy in a cloaked ship well we know the following:

1. He wont be AFK.
2. He'll be active.
3. If you try to ignore him, he will likely do bad things to you.

Sounds like forward progress to me.

I don't insist no player will, I just insist that a majority won't, purely because if you are doing PvE, the chances are you enjoy PvE when playing EVE. Baiting out an aggressor and locking him down while your mates jump in an destroy him is a better option, but that requires you to actually want to do it. If you just want to shoot red crosses or laser rocks, that's probably not your cup of tea. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

Why? At what point did CCP state "EVE is only about shooting each other". They are about to put in changes designed to increase PvE and self sufficiency in null, and you honestly think they want to kill off null PvE as a core gameplay path?

If we were in a system and I were in a T1 frigate with no modules, I could move in such as way as to ensure my total safety. I very much doubt that pinpointing cloakers will affect an active cloaker in the slightest. And it's not purely cloakers that evade when a defense fleet forms, that was just an example of a common reason we don;t bother forming up. Non-cloak ships also do the same thing. As long as you are moving nobody can scan you down and get to you. If you don't want to fight, you don't have to.

You see I am making no assumptions at all in my reply. Yet again, you are mixing fact with fantasy.
1) Gate camps are most definitely the most effective way to shut people out at a bottleneck. Yet have you ever tried to convince people to sit at a gate for days on end? Obviously would need to be done in shifts, but try to convince people that they must take turns camping a gate for 4 hour shifts. Not to mention once people realize a choke point is camped they typically stop using it until the camp is clear, meaning your kills come very few and far between. IE- the gate camps you imagine would have to be done halfheartedly with alts

2) What? Everything can change with a patch, yes... but where did you ever get the idea that CCP would put a 1 minute delay on a cyno after decloaking? Please link me this. You have certainly pulled that one straight out of your ass. And it's not even good for a hypothetical example.
The only change I see happening is a reduction in normal cyno duration as most people already use self destruct rookie cynos so they only have to wait 2 minutes to the normal 10. The only changes actually mentioned are making the hunter actively hunt, rather than camp and wait for complacency/desperation.

Those are facts, no assumptions made at all. I understand where you're coming from. I'm simply saying hypothetical examples about none existent patches or playstyles really get us nowhere.


Teckos, I know what he wants to say. And I think you can gather by now that you and I are pretty much in agreement. But arguing with Lucas the way he isn't going to help his case. A cup with holes holds no water.

Lucas, you need to take a step back for a day or so and calm down and read what is being written more calmly. Nobody disagrees that the changes are making it so null is more sustainable, however, increased reward warrants increased risk. However, the game of hunter vs prey should never be a straight game of action -> counter. But rather preparation -> action -> reaction -> counter. We shouldn't have the ability to survive if the aggressor planned their actions ahead of time and we failed to take precautions outside of the normal align and warp. Likewise, a random roaming gang shouldn't be able to navigate our sov without notice just like the current system.

As a dirty cloaker I feel the problem is psychological, not mechanical. That said, the psychological fear seems to stem primarily from cynos, which are a largely broken mechanic (imo). Anywhere that cynos are not a threat, cloaky camping is not widely feared. Not a coincidence!

Yes, while those in the system are 100% safe at the same time from them and know with 100% certainty that I am in the system.

Oh and where it comes from it isn't irrelevant, it's a part of knowing what to change in order to retain balance.

The effect is not irrelevant. I can affect you psychologically via market PVP without being online, let alone in your system. I can affect other corporations psychologically by revealing I have spies among them without being online. The fact that gankers exist can make miners fit stabs and shields preemptively. The fact that I record all my ops changes the kind of text messages people send me.

So I disagree with your assertion. There are thousands of ways to psychologically affect an Eve player. It does matter however if that player is under an actual military threat.

There is not other way to have the same type of effect a cloaker has in any other AFK play. An AFK cloaker projects the exact same psychological effect that an active one does. There's a reason people go out of their way to AFK cloak as much as they do.

Honestly though I'm done going round in circles over this with people like yourself coming back and saying how it's not and blah blah blah etc. I really don't care. If AFK cloaking stay forever I don't care If CCP want to screw up null I'll go elsewhere whit the rest of the exodus. I trust CCP to act in the best interest of the entire playerbase which includes PvE and not cater to "PvP carebears". Maybe that trust is misplaced, who knows. All I know is I'm tired of the same arguments form the same trolls who seem to be exempt from forum rules.

^ Or just safe log anyone who hasn't taken any action in a half hour (regardless if they are in station or in space in any capacity.)