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Continuious Wardec ...................................................

Author
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#141 - 2015-04-17 22:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Eve Solecist
Let me try to end this.


Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Yes, it is. It's not harassment just because they're losing, carebear.

Don't believe me? Drop a line to the GMs, see what they say.

Except CCP have directly clarified that if you take serious attempts to avoid it, and the person continues repeatedly it does become Harassment, so no, in this case you are wrong.

Or rather you are right in what you said, but utterly wrong in responding to me, because I didn't say it's harassment because they are losing, and you didn't bother actually reading what I said.

If they attempt to avoid it, by closing the corp, moving significantly and joining another corp, and they are still being perma targeted by the same PLAYERS, and that part is important as CCP also clarified using other alts does not make it ok, then they start to have a case for harassment.

If they try and sit in the same system playing the same markets and wonder why they keep getting shot at on exactly the same gate, then sure it's not harassment no matter how long it goes on for, because they have taken no effort themselves.

Yeah, that's right.

Let's ... for the sake of argument ... ignore that self destructing the pod in station ...
... which is now doable as far as I remember ...
... will move you away from your current location.

Which means it's actually impossible to lock anyone down in a station.
It also means that it's rather easy to move far away from someone
and it takes that someone time to get back to you.


If I keep going after you daily and you can not possibly play any other way ...
... they will tell me to stop or I'm gone.

Constantly denying a player the ability to play without any other means is griefing.


This, though, only ever works under two conditions.

The first is that there is no way I can lock you down in a station ...
... unless I counter any counter you try to defend yourself with.
(ignoring self destruction)


That would mean that you couldn't even safely undock in your pod.
You can't buy yourself a ship and fit it with stabs.
Nothing.


The second is that I am not offering you a way out.
(see the GM decision about bumping in C&P)

A GM ruling forces me to offer you a way out ...
... whatever it might be! Some people do singing ransoms, I kid you not!

Most people seem to find this rather hilarious! :) (social interaction provides content)




Assume I've locked you down in Jita 4-4.
Assume it's your clone's home station, for the sake of argument.

Whenever you undock ... you get locked up instantly and we start shooting.
You can't even get out with your pod.


A smart, experienced player will try to use google to find a way out. There might be something
he doesn't know. There's always something. Maybe he'll come up with something.

For example ... There's a moon in Jita which almost perfectly aligns with the undock of 4-4.
Instaundock and you're out!


And here's the thing:

The whiny idiots who don't belong into this game ...
... would have petitioned, even though it's not possibly considered harassment.

If it was a new player who couldn't possibly know what to search for ...
... then I would get a big fat warning for harassing a new player.


And the smart player, the one who "get's" EVE ...

... a) apologises if he did bad things ... (and most likely pay up or something)
... b) asks for a way to get out ...
... c) both.






Different.




If you sit in a wormhole and I permacamp all holes ...
... and you sit in there for a week and we still do it ...

... and you petition, then ...
... as a noob the GMs might move you out and we'd never know.(chances ... it happens ... why not)
... as an experienced player, they would tell you to self destruct.




If I deliberately trap you in a hole, by collapsing the entry you just went through ...
... knowing you have no scanner and no probes on board and you petition ...
... then the GMs will tell you ...
... a) to ask a friend you probably don't have.
... b) that people have successfully posted on the forums when they got lost ...
... b) to speak to the endless void that is local and hope for a response ...
... c) to kill yourself. Ingame, of course.




Most people have absolutely no base to even discuss this topic ...
... because they aren't even properly thinking about it.



Common sense.
It's really easy.



All you people do is go through personal issues you have with the other person ...
... but do so in the context of game mechanics.
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#142 - 2015-04-18 00:20:24 UTC
I'd also like to add that if I never made the appropriate spaces in my posts ...
... the citation in my signature wouldn't make any sense. (:
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Lendren
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2015-04-18 00:47:57 UTC
Eve Solecist wrote:
Let me try to end this.


Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Yes, it is. It's not harassment just because they're losing, carebear.

Don't believe me? Drop a line to the GMs, see what they say.

Except CCP have directly clarified that if you take serious attempts to avoid it, and the person continues repeatedly it does become Harassment, so no, in this case you are wrong.

Or rather you are right in what you said, but utterly wrong in responding to me, because I didn't say it's harassment because they are losing, and you didn't bother actually reading what I said.

If they attempt to avoid it, by closing the corp, moving significantly and joining another corp, and they are still being perma targeted by the same PLAYERS, and that part is important as CCP also clarified using other alts does not make it ok, then they start to have a case for harassment.

If they try and sit in the same system playing the same markets and wonder why they keep getting shot at on exactly the same gate, then sure it's not harassment no matter how long it goes on for, because they have taken no effort themselves.

Yeah, that's right.

Let's ... for the sake of argument ... ignore that self destructing the pod in station ...
... which is now doable as far as I remember ...
... will move you away from your current location.

Which means it's actually impossible to lock anyone down in a station.
It also means that it's rather easy to move far away from someone
and it takes that someone time to get back to you.


If I keep going after you daily and you can not possibly play any other way ...
... they will tell me to stop or I'm gone.

Constantly denying a player the ability to play without any other means is griefing.


This, though, only ever works under two conditions.

The first is that there is no way I can lock you down in a station ...
... unless I counter any counter you try to defend yourself with.
(ignoring self destruction)


That would mean that you couldn't even safely undock in your pod.
You can't buy yourself a ship and fit it with stabs.
Nothing.


The second is that I am not offering you a way out.
(see the GM decision about bumping in C&P)

A GM ruling forces me to offer you a way out ...
... whatever it might be! Some people do singing ransoms, I kid you not!

Most people seem to find this rather hilarious! :) (social interaction provides content)








All you people do is go through personal issues you have with the other person ...
... but do so in the context of game mechanics.


Much words. Such Ramble. Wow!

The short answer from this forum is no. Continuous wardecs are an intentional part of the game, and are not considered griefing or harassment. If you disagree, you can always petition a GM to see what they say. Arguing here is a pointless exercise because none of us really have any say in the matter.

Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#144 - 2015-04-18 01:00:01 UTC
It's completely unnecessary to quote a post that's so big and so close.

And too late you are, as well.
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
#145 - 2015-04-18 01:17:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Yes, it is. It's not harassment just because they're losing, carebear.

Don't believe me? Drop a line to the GMs, see what they say.

Except CCP have directly clarified that if you take serious attempts to avoid it, and the person continues repeatedly it does become Harassment, so no, in this case you are wrong.

Or rather you are right in what you said, but utterly wrong in responding to me, because I didn't say it's harassment because they are losing, and you didn't bother actually reading what I said.

If they attempt to avoid it, by closing the corp, moving significantly and joining another corp, and they are still being perma targeted by the same PLAYERS, and that part is important as CCP also clarified using other alts does not make it ok, then they start to have a case for harassment.

If they try and sit in the same system playing the same markets and wonder why they keep getting shot at on exactly the same gate, then sure it's not harassment no matter how long it goes on for, because they have taken no effort themselves.

Without a GM ruling, it's all just speculation.

The only word we have from CCP that I can remember in relation to wars is in the Grief Play article, where corporation wars are specifically identified as a standard part of conflict and not grief play:

https://community.eveonline.com/support/knowledge-base/article.aspx?articleId=336

The aspect of persistent targeting of a player as being harassment is only clarified from my memory in relation to bumping and judged on a case by case basis, no other form of persistent targeting has any official word from CCP:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=199310&find=unread

It would be kind of stupid if wardeccers couldn't follow a wartarget around to put pressure on them. Being disruptive to a persons play seems like a fairly common strategic objective of a war, especially once mercs are part of it, where they could have been specifically hired to achieve an outcome against a Corp or specific players. It seems that the GMs may agree on that too (also from the bumping thread):

GM Karidor wrote:
Hannott Thanos wrote:
I simply noted that it seems that it is still legal to implicitly harass someone by setting up bumper gangs in every belt that one person mines in, as long as they target everyone, not just that one individual. Or am I mistaken here?


You are mistaken. If you are reported and we find you actively following around a target without a war to continue bumping a specific player, it will still (at some point) considered harassment, even if you divert your 'attention' a little while doing so. If you have a bone to pick with someone, declare a war and take the risk that your target may actually taste blood and fight back (or finds allies for that part).


I've never seen where CCP have said this:

Except CCP have directly clarified that if you take serious attempts to avoid it, and the person continues repeatedly it does become Harassment, so no, in this case you are wrong.

Can you link that clarification?
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2015-04-18 01:29:46 UTC
Wardecs? I'm pretty sure CCP is ok with those.

CCP Falcon reverses membership requirement for Alliance Logos after wardec threat.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#147 - 2015-04-18 01:43:46 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:

I've never seen where CCP have said this:

Except CCP have directly clarified that if you take serious attempts to avoid it, and the person continues repeatedly it does become Harassment, so no, in this case you are wrong.

Can you link that clarification?


It doesn't exist, he's extrapolating from the bumping ruling.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#148 - 2015-04-18 01:53:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Khergit Deserters
Some not especially skilled at PVP (high sec types) just sit around and wardec people, hoping for fun and profit. Could be they found you because they were patrolling the Recruiting forum, or the Recruitment channel, or they just saw you in Local. Any delusional reason that they might think a 2-man corp might provide KB padding. Or more pathetic yet, ISK! From a 2-man mining corp. Or they may have multi-wardecs going, and and cruise systems hoping to catch some straggler to asplode.

Whatever, a hyperactive hyperdrive ADHD move, if they can't enforce it with some patience and waiting for you to move. And you're in control of your own moving. You're playing GTA while waiting, so sounds like you're pretty much invulnerable to me. Wardeccers wasting time and isk on you. You could tempt them to waste more of both if you want.... Smile
Royal Imperious
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2015-04-18 04:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Royal Imperious
Royal Imperious wrote:
Just play denial games with the Deccers. Grief the griefers.

1) Log on, make sure they notice you, get in a fast (but not too fast ) ship. Set course for the middle of nowhere and watch them chase you across the universe, then laugh at them (quietly).

2) Log on, make sure they notice you, then jump clone 20+ jumps away, then go back to step 1)

Bonus: do this while playing with an out of corp alt.



Scipio Artelius wrote:
Royal Imperious wrote:
Grief the griefers.

Someone who wardecs you is not a griefer, but you advocate griefing them?

Is that the take away message of your post - you are in favour of griefing others.


No, I'm not in favor of griefing others, however I am very much in favor of returning that favor!

If the wardec has a point (any point) eg: denying you access to a certain space/route or any other strategic objective (including extracting ransom) then by all means this isn't a grefing wardec.

But consider this scenario I have been in multiple times:

1) Small corp gets decced by random 5-10 man corp for no apparent reason
2) Contact the deccers and offer them 25mil (half of the 50 mil to dec). This is to give an early incentive to end a pointless war. The deccer is not going to get more than 25 and certainly not more than 50 (which would make the dec profitable and furthur incentivize the dec.
3) The deccer is told that if the offer is rejected there will be no targets to shoot regardless.
...
4) The deccer asks for .... [Insert ridiculous amount of isk here] bil (because he/she is an idiot and doesn't understand the above logic and is adament the decs will continue until they are paid.)
5) No furthur communication with the deccers is permitted past this point. The deccer parks an alt in our home system.
6) We all wait x weeks (while playing with out of corp alts) until the deccer gets tired of losing isk for no good reason.
7) Dec ends

This whole thing (that repeats) over and over accomplished absolutely nothing other than the isk the deccer sunk into concord (Yay! lower inflation for all) and a waste of time on our end dealing with all this crap.

There was no tears, no fun, no gudfights, just a giant waste of time. Decs need to have an objective and an outcome of consequence (snap thats what eve is supposed to be all about).

No objective = no point = nothing more than annoying other players. So if you are going to waste my time (grief me), guess what, I'm going to waste yours (grief you). Now we have come full circle.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#150 - 2015-04-18 06:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Vimsy Vortis
This is why carebears are horrible at diplomacy. They can't do basic math and apparently don't understand the concept of value either.

I mean wow, there's so much wrong with that post that it boggles the mind. First and foremost if it costs someone 50 million to be at war with you, and they want to be at war with you, why the crap would they ever accept 50 million to not be at war with you, let alone 25 million? They'd lose both the desirable condition that they'd paid money to create (being at war with you to begin with) and then also be down 25 million isk.

They'd stand to gain nothing by accepting it and they'd lose both money and the thing they paid for in the first place. Only a total moron would even think that's a viable offer to make. Particularly so when you're so dedicated to posing no threat to them whatsoever.

Moreover denial of gameplay is often the actual objective of a war dec, particularly if its a contract from an industrialist against other industrialists. As fun as it is to read the old "Hurr durr I don't understand what people are doing, that means they must be doing things for no reason." spiel from carebears, it's really tired, every war has a reason behind it and an objective, just because you don't like it or don't know what it is it does not mean it doesn't exist.

"Oh a war huh, well I'll show you, I just won't log in for weeks!" is not some glorious masterstroke of genius that will confound and frustrate an aggressor. It's an extremely common and often expected action that in reality does nothing to inconvenience the aggressor. Hell when it's a contract it's just an easy win, you get to report to the client that you shut the entire corp down and they won't even log in without actually having to do anything.

Not logging in and refusing to communicate is also an anti-content, interaction avoiding and outright boring approach to playing, which is really against the entire spirit of the game.
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#151 - 2015-04-18 07:38:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Eve Solecist
Last night, before I went to sleep I spoke to the almighty Bob.

I asked Bob ...

Quote:
What should we do? I gave them my best,
most easy to understand explanation but it's of no use?
Oh Bob, what do??


And as I cried myself to sleep ...
... I had a dream ...
... and in this dream the almighty Bob spoke to me, and said ...

Quote:
Only those who suffer will find wisdom!


And then I realised! It's so obvious! The best way to answer such questions
is to put them up for a test against all those who think they know better!

Bob has spoken!
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#152 - 2015-04-18 09:09:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Except CCP have directly clarified that if you take serious attempts to avoid it, and the person continues repeatedly it does become Harassment, so no, in this case you are wrong.


Wrong.

If you keep ducking wars and want to call harassment, they're going to ask you why you're in a player corp in the first place.

Wars are never harassment.

Like I said, if you want to know the truth, you can ask. You won't, because you refuse to do anything that might challenge your narrative that PvP is "griefing" and "harassment".

You should make a career out of being wrong, you're so good at it.

There's no black and white regarding this type of thing. It would up to CCP to assess whether there's harassment occurring in this case.

If for instance players were to be war decced continuously, disbanded and then suicided ganked continuously, reformed into another corp and war decced continuously they would likely be guilty of harassing another player or group of players. The issue would be decided based on intent and reason for the war dec.

Of course CCP is really great at dismissing and ignoring blatant breaches of its own EULA and contract laws as they relate to online subscriptions so the most likely outcome is they'd do nothing, not because it wasn't harassment but simply because when it comes to administering and policy policing their game they suck.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#153 - 2015-04-18 09:14:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Eve Solecist
Thread should be locked.

It serves no purpose, is a dead horse
and provides ground for manipulating those who need to be protected from themselves.

No kidding. I asked Bob and he predicts there will be pages after pages of
nonsensical bullshit from the same sheep over and over again.

This isn't about game mechanics at all.
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Ciel993
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#154 - 2015-04-18 16:41:16 UTC
Eve Solecist wrote:
Thread should be locked.

It serves no purpose, is a dead horse
and provides ground for manipulating those who need to be protected from themselves.

No kidding. I asked Bob and he predicts there will be pages after pages of
nonsensical bullshit from the same sheep over and over again.

This isn't about game mechanics at all.


Just like every other similar threads on this forum, duh

but again, Forum online is just an integrated part of EVE, so nothing can be done about itRoll
Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#155 - 2015-04-18 16:44:49 UTC
Ciel993 wrote:
Eve Solecist wrote:
Thread should be locked.

It serves no purpose, is a dead horse
and provides ground for manipulating those who need to be protected from themselves.

No kidding. I asked Bob and he predicts there will be pages after pages of
nonsensical bullshit from the same sheep over and over again.

This isn't about game mechanics at all.


Just like every other similar threads on this forum, duh

but again, Forum online is just an integrated part of EVE, so nothing can be done about itRoll

No ... not really ... and no ... wrong again.
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#156 - 2015-04-18 16:46:28 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Of course CCP is really great at dismissing and ignoring blatant breaches of its own EULA and contract laws as they relate to online subscriptions so the most likely outcome is they'd do nothing, not because it wasn't harassment but simply because when it comes to administering and policy policing their game they suck.


Lol, still butthurt about the GM warning you got from all that time ago, huh? It's funny to see you still carrying that baggage around.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#157 - 2015-04-18 16:47:51 UTC
*sighs* Children .... you really need to be policed constantly.
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#158 - 2015-04-18 16:52:03 UTC
Eve Solecist wrote:
*sighs* Children .... you really need to be policed constantly.


Oh, I forget, you might have missed this one, Sol.

Here.

Keep in mind, half of Infinity Ziona's ranting was deleted from that thread, so that's the edited version. That thread is the start of what resulted in them being banned from the game for the last nine months or so.

The follow up was even funnier, with three threads posted afterward complaining about forum moderation and threatening a lawsuit, then a pouty complaint thread on a third party website that got Malcanis going after them.

It was the best meltdown I've ever seen.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Eve Solecist
Shitt Outta Luck - GANKING4GOOD
#159 - 2015-04-18 16:57:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eve Solecist wrote:
*sighs* Children .... you really need to be policed constantly.


Oh, I forget, you might have missed this one, Sol.

Here.

Keep in mind, half of Infinity Ziona's ranting was deleted from that thread, so that's the edited version. That thread is the start of what resulted in them being banned from the game for the last nine months or so.

The follow up was even funnier, with three threads posted afterward complaining about forum moderation and threatening a lawsuit, then a pouty complaint thread on a third party website that got Malcanis going after them.

It was the best meltdown I've ever seen.

Hey hey I was part of this too!!!! ^_^
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#160 - 2015-04-18 17:11:58 UTC
I was under the assumption that "ignore" stopped you seeing what was put into local. By not ignoring, and you claiming this is "harassment". then you by rote, are "harassing" yourself.

Stop being a pathetically weak individual.