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Why does everyone (sort of) want to making mining easier?
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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#81 - 2011-12-25 23:05:30 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:

Well, I don't care, if a Caracal can fit TWO LSE ... but it's just a bad joke from you, to claim "mining ships shouldn't be allowed to use ONE MSE at the same time".
And that's what you do!
This just let one conclusion: you try hard to troll and claime balance to your favor (ak WANT INBALANCE).


There's a very good mining ship that lets you fit a fair tank (including your magic LSE) and pulls in more than 2/3 the ore a Hulk does. It's the Rokh.

The size of the hull is irrelevant. The role of the ship is what matters. Claiming that cruiser hulls should have access to the same fittings is ridiculous.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#82 - 2011-12-25 23:17:21 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Your Hulk's ability to tank belt rats means it can mine anywhere with complete safety. It's the other players that are the problem. And that's how a Multiplayer Sandbox works. You build a sandcastle, I can knock it down. But then you can knock down my sandcastle. Even further than that, you build a sandcastle, there's now less sand (or space) for my sandcastle, and the only way to make more space is to knock yours down.


From the link "I gank your barg, you gank my POS ..."
So you EXPECT and FORCE every one to wast their training time (SP) for combat skills just as YOU want it this way.

Some player do NOT want to be fighters.
So who are you to FORCE them to be one?


Why are you in a PvP game if you don't want PvP? A Multiplayer Sandbox with a Player driven market is a PvP game regardless of whether there's any shooting.

You joined a dark, harsh, and lawless game (as it is advertised) and now you're complaining that it's too dark, harsh, and lawless?

If you want to be an industrialist, GREAT, I'm an industrialist too (among other hats I wear). Figure out how to make an acceptable return for the risk you expose yourself to. Hisec is low (but very hard to mitigate) risk, low reward (except in Blue Ice fields, but the rewards of mining there are better to compensate for increased risk), Nullsec is high (but easy to mitigate) risk, high reward.

Nobody's saying you're forced to fight. Hire mercenaries to do it for you, move elsewhere, adapt to changing risk profiles to manage your risk.

Just don't expect people to take kindly when you want to pull the game away from it's roots as a Cold, Harsh, Lawless, PvP game.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Endeavour Starfleet
#83 - 2011-12-25 23:21:08 UTC
Yes a Rokh is indeed a great mining ship. But notice you said 2/3rds. That is a BIG decrease in yield in an already depressed market and game style.

A simple solution then is my idea to greatly increase mining barge hull HP. Also I had a thought that with such change it would be INSANE not to dedicate one of your slots to a Damage Control. It would mean you can survive only half the DPS so now even a basic fit craft like the Oracle with T1 gear can gank you in time.

Fair balance in my opinion.
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#84 - 2011-12-25 23:25:08 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

There's a very good mining ship that lets you fit a fair tank (including your magic LSE) and pulls in more than 2/3 the ore a Hulk does. It's the Rokh.

The size of the hull is irrelevant. The role of the ship is what matters. Claiming that cruiser hulls should have access to the same fittings is ridiculous.

OH YES :D

Now you addmit, that a Tech 2 ship DESIGNED for mining even fails at doing it as a FIGHTING ship can do it much better.
Thx to bring this example how badly designed mining bargs are :).

Omen, Moa, Thorax all have 8 medium+low slots + 5(6) high to fullfit their job : fighting
Retriver has 3 medium+low + 2 high to fullfit it's job : mining

THIS are the hulls that must be compared!

As I absolut except, that a mining barg don't deserve any real offens abilitys biside of killing some NPC frigs.
There is NO reson, why they have to be THAT pre gimped for defens! And this does not even include the mega pre gimp of missing CPU and Grid.

As allready mentioned several times:
Any company would kick the designers ass for offering such a FAIL designe for a ship which should be used in such a harsh universe (like Pirates love to name it)!

Industrial companys might give a **** about workers security or urban destroing ... they do ANYTHING posible to protect their capital and goods! And this will never change.

Hell, checked some news lately? Heared about Piracy in south africa? Even shipowner whos line cross this area rework their ships and put some OFFENSIVE and additional defensive moduls on this ships.
WHY should this be different in any fictionery future?

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#85 - 2011-12-25 23:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
RubyPorto wrote:

Why are you in a PvP game if you don't want PvP? A Multiplayer Sandbox with a Player driven market is a PvP game regardless of whether there's any shooting.

You joined a dark, harsh, and lawless game (as it is advertised) and now you're complaining that it's too dark, harsh, and lawless?


No problem for me.

But I EXPECT (and demand) a tiny bit of balance from any game I play.
And that's what you disline. BALANCE.

PS: if there would be a new privateer or elite online ... bye bye
But there is non so I try to get some much needed balance into this game.

At the moment EVE clearly favors piracy and ganking by making it easy enough that even a monky can do it.

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!
Endeavour Starfleet
#86 - 2011-12-25 23:31:14 UTC
Again the balance is simple. Massively increased hull HP.

A) Forces miners to equip a DCU if they want to have a better chance to survive against lower cost ships.

B) Forces miners who have been attacked to sit and use a slow hull repair system (This can be further enhanced by a 50 percent hull repair amount penalty granted to the mining barges encouraging use of remote hull repairs)

C) Is an easy system to implement.
Jojo Jackson
Dead Red Eye
#87 - 2011-12-25 23:34:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jojo Jackson
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Again the balance is simple. Massively increased hull HP.

A) Forces miners to equip a DCU if they want to have a better chance to survive against lower cost ships.

B) Forces miners who have been attacked to sit and use a slow hull repair system (This can be further enhanced by a 50 percent hull repair amount penalty granted to the mining barges encouraging use of remote hull repairs)

C) Is an easy system to implement.

Adding slots, CPU and grid to get compareble defensive fittings like combat medium hulls isn't more work then your hull increase.

PS: and why do you want to pre-gimp them again with repair penaltys ???
Absolut no reason for this!

Miners are no second class players! They pay the same real money for their playtime. And as they do so, they DESERVE the same posibilitys (wtf repair penalty????).
CCP would be stupid to handle them as second class custumers!

Why the hell can't I fitt capital repairs or shield booster on an Orca ... it's an CAPITAL ship!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#88 - 2011-12-25 23:42:33 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Again the balance is simple. Massively increased hull HP.

A) Forces miners to equip a DCU if they want to have a better chance to survive against lower cost ships.

B) Forces miners who have been attacked to sit and use a slow hull repair system (This can be further enhanced by a 50 percent hull repair amount penalty granted to the mining barges encouraging use of remote hull repairs)

C) Is an easy system to implement.


Suicide Ganks kill freighters every day.

If I have damage to my ship, I dock and pres repair butan.

Easy != Good

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#89 - 2011-12-25 23:46:51 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Again the balance is simple. Massively increased hull HP.

A) Forces miners to equip a DCU if they want to have a better chance to survive against lower cost ships.

B) Forces miners who have been attacked to sit and use a slow hull repair system (This can be further enhanced by a 50 percent hull repair amount penalty granted to the mining barges encouraging use of remote hull repairs)

C) Is an easy system to implement.

Adding slots, CPU and grid to get compareble defensive fittings like combat medium hulls isn't more work then your hull increase.

PS: and why do you want to pre-gimp them again with repair penaltys ???
Absolut no reason for this!

Miners are no second class players! They pay the same real money for their playtime. And as they do so, they DESERVE the same posibilitys (wtf repair penalty????).
CCP would be stupid to handle them as second class custumers!



You pay money for access to a sandbox. What you do in that sandbox is entirely up to you. (Miners got shafted by drone poop gunmining, and that's on CCP to fix, but the ships are fine). It's a Multiplayer sandbox. What other people do in that sandbox is entirely up to them. When what you want to do and what they want to do interfere, it is not up to CCP to step in on one side or the other.

And Suicide Ganks got a hefty nerf right in the pocketbook with Crucible (no more insurance payouts).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#90 - 2011-12-25 23:47:31 UTC
Jojo Jackson wrote:

At the moment EVE clearly favors piracy and ganking by making it easy enough that even a monky can do it.

And Mining is what, Hard?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#91 - 2011-12-25 23:55:54 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
B) Forces miners who have been attacked to sit and use a slow hull repair system (This can be further enhanced by a 50 percent hull repair amount penalty granted to the mining barges encouraging use of remote hull repairs)


A miner who has been attacked is going to be looking for a new ship, unless the would-be attackers didn't do the basics of scanning the ship to estimate the EHP before setting a squad of destroyers onto the target.

As it stands, a Hulk cannot fit a tank equivalent to what any T2 cruiser can fit. A moderate increase in the EHP of exhumers would lead to suicide ganking requiring more pilots in coordination. No longer would three pilots be able to lock down a system 24 hours a day. Even if the EHP was only doubled, the would-be gankers would need to double their numbers, thus inflicting upon their collective selves double the effort to restore their security status.

Then there's the issue of miners being forced to exist at known locations in space. Mission-runners need to be probed down or ganked on station. Miners are sitting in space next to publicly visible beacons, which more or less advertise, "easy targets here!"

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#92 - 2011-12-25 23:57:33 UTC
Bleh forum ate my post.

Anyways to make it simple.

1 They dont have AK-47s its RPGs and Javlins, the equipment being brought to bear against a miner works just as damned well against miltiary targets.

2 Stop short sighting yourself and assume poorly of what I think is the greatest testing ground for combat logistics exists in that High sec Ice belt. If it works there it should work most elsewhere.

3 Success is a punishment, didnt anyone from the progressives minded tell you that?

4 Meta-Module Mining has always been a problem well before drone regions. CCP stated they're looking at getting rid of guts in belt and complex rats so I already wrote them off on a casuatly list and thinking ahead.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Endeavour Starfleet
#93 - 2011-12-26 00:02:43 UTC
The "hull" repair penalty is to balance for the massively increased hull HP. As others have stated more slots will allow easier tanking against PVE targets. Which is NOT the goal here.

To tank nullsec rats you SHOULD have to fit hundreds of millions of isk worth of fits. You dont tank with hull.

Also the hull repair penalty encourages fleet ops. As one person can sit in a repair domi or some other cheap ship with some hull RRs without dealing with the penealty.

As for docking. If you want to pay the extreme repair costs. Be my guest it still is a balance.
SpaceSquirrels
#94 - 2011-12-26 00:52:07 UTC
Mining just needs an interactive more fun aspect to it. You can leave it so it's afkable as well I suppose, but should get rewarded for being awake at the keyboard.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#95 - 2011-12-26 01:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Yeah the 6 points I brought up on how to improve the profession would work to be less afk and more rewarding to those who understand and try to skill up a bit more.

I also want to call into nerfs into other areas which would encourage moving out of high sec.
Think of it as the cost of safety.

Another thing I like to see put in would be a beacon something easy to warp back too without having ot make and delete bookmarks,

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2011-12-26 01:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
RubyPorto wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:

Well, I don't care, if a Caracal can fit TWO LSE ... but it's just a bad joke from you, to claim "mining ships shouldn't be allowed to use ONE MSE at the same time".
And that's what you do!
This just let one conclusion: you try hard to troll and claime balance to your favor (ak WANT INBALANCE).


There's a very good mining ship that lets you fit a fair tank (including your magic LSE) and pulls in more than 2/3 the ore a Hulk does. It's the Rokh.

The size of the hull is irrelevant. The role of the ship is what matters. Claiming that cruiser hulls should have access to the same fittings is ridiculous.


well yes Rokh can have something round 162k ehp with resists from the worse 66per emp to the best 83 per. explo.. 818 yield and 1295 m3 cargo.. well it would be clicking nightmare but it was done before it can be done again..
Problem is it cant mine ice.

Covertor 1234 yield with T2 crystals.. and one MLU.. tank not worth mentioning xD
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2011-12-26 01:25:04 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:

At the moment EVE clearly favors piracy and ganking by making it easy enough that even a monky can do it.

And Mining is what, Hard?


certainly more expensive Big smile
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#98 - 2011-12-26 01:30:57 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Jojo Jackson wrote:

At the moment EVE clearly favors piracy and ganking by making it easy enough that even a monky can do it.

And Mining is what, Hard?


certainly more expensive Big smile


You lose your mining ship every time you go out mining Shocked
And the Insurance nerf should help with that (and that's a nerf that was a long time coming, insurance payout cause the PoPo shot you ShockedRoll)


Yeah, cheap ships, purposefully fit, can kill expensive ships. If that weren't true PvP would suck in this game.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#99 - 2011-12-26 01:38:40 UTC
I dont think cost needs to be a factor into survivability.

What it should factor into is how well it kills stuff. Ships or rocks.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Endeavour Starfleet
#100 - 2011-12-26 01:50:36 UTC
I disagree.

Right now the cost for a successful hisec gank is extremely low. To fix this adding a massive boost to hull HP will mean more DPS needed and thus cost before concord arrives.

It should take an expensive fit Oracle or Tornado or Naga (Or a group of smaller ships) to destroy a hulk with a damage control system before concord arrives in most situations. The hull boost WILL do that.