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Remove learning implants

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Author
Chance Ravinne
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#21 - 2015-04-14 20:40:48 UTC
Because they will be high demand items that will have an ISK cost. Someone like me can buy millions of them and keep them stocked in stations everywhere to stay boosted 24/7.

New players probably won't even know they exist and will have to choose between learning faster or buying another Atron.

And unlike current implants, you can't save money just by playing more carefully. A new player who is very alert won't lose their +3s because they won't get podded in hisec/lowsec. In your booster system the new player will always run out, whereas rich players will never run out.

You've just read another awesome post by Chance Ravinne, CEO of EVE's #1 torpedo delivery service. Watch our misadventures on my YouTube channel: WINGSPANTT

Black Pedro
Mine.
#22 - 2015-04-14 20:45:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Malcanis wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Rather than removing my options, why don't we increase your options?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=391378

If learning implants are going to stay I very much like the idea of moving them to slots 7-9. It is the interference with pirate sets that bothers me most. Learning drugs would be great but this does favour rich players.


How do learning drugs intrinsically favour rich players?

How do they not? Either they are expensive enough that players need to consider whether they are worth the iSK which favors the wealthy, or they are so cheap that they just become mandatory and everyone uses them without thinking.

The later case adds nothing but busy work to the game, while the former favours the wealthy.

There needs to be some trade off to using them to make the choice meaningful and ISK is not the best choice as it favours established players.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2015-04-14 20:47:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Rather than removing my options, why don't we increase your options?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=391378

If learning implants are going to stay I very much like the idea of moving them to slots 7-9. It is the interference with pirate sets that bothers me most. Learning drugs would be great but this does favour rich players.


How do learning drugs intrinsically favour rich players?

I originally liked the idea of boosters, but the problem I see is the general message to the players. Pay $$$ subscription and get a running skill queue. Pay or grind and get a faster queue. This is far better than pay or grind more and unlock the fun, but still not good IMO.

I'm my own NPC alt.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#24 - 2015-04-14 23:02:27 UTC
You ran into your own law on this one, Malc.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#25 - 2015-04-15 08:59:04 UTC
Yeah, what they said. Boosters would presumably be reasonably expensive or they would just be a default (no choice). So people who can afford to pay for a continuous supply are effectively trading ISK for SP.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#26 - 2015-04-16 21:03:48 UTC
Chance Ravinne wrote:
Because they will be high demand items that will have an ISK cost. Someone like me can buy millions of them and keep them stocked in stations everywhere to stay boosted 24/7.

New players probably won't even know they exist and will have to choose between learning faster or buying another Atron.

And unlike current implants, you can't save money just by playing more carefully. A new player who is very alert won't lose their +3s because they won't get podded in hisec/lowsec. In your booster system the new player will always run out, whereas rich players will never run out.



Implants also have an ISK cost.

In the event that my proposal was accepted, the demand for learning implants would plummet, if for no other reason than each character would only need 1 rather than 5. The simplest way to protect LP store income would be to add learning boosters to LP stores (as suggested in the proposal IIRC) and make them cheap. Say 1-2% of the price of the equivalent implant per dose. That puts a +5 booster at, what? 1200LP and 1.2M ISK.

Then they'd be universally available, impossible to corner and widely advertised to any player doing even L1 missions for income.

Then there's also the issue of granularity. As a rich old player, I can plonk down for a pair of +5s whenever I feel like training extra fast. That +5 goodness is easy for me to achieve, but it's a very high hill for a new player to climb, But that new player can buy a few booster shots and amp up his training speed without making a huge downpayment in advance.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#27 - 2015-04-16 21:07:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You ran into your own law on this one, Malc.


I disagree.

Boosters make it easier for new players to achieve higher learning speeds. Older players can trivially access that advantage already. They can't be more advantaged than they already are.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#28 - 2015-04-16 21:10:37 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Rather than removing my options, why don't we increase your options?

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=391378

If learning implants are going to stay I very much like the idea of moving them to slots 7-9. It is the interference with pirate sets that bothers me most. Learning drugs would be great but this does favour rich players.


How do learning drugs intrinsically favour rich players?

I originally liked the idea of boosters, but the problem I see is the general message to the players. Pay $$$ subscription and get a running skill queue. Pay or grind and get a faster queue. This is far better than pay or grind more and unlock the fun, but still not good IMO.


Not having to risk high priced implants if you don't want to reduces the grind and means that you dont have to choose between training skills and having fun. Anything, anything that undermines the horrible terribads who grief new players out of the game (and ruin EVE's reputation amongst potential players) by telling them to grind missions to earn +5s and then "stay in hi-sec until you have enough SP for 0.0" is good for the game and good for the new players.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#29 - 2015-04-16 21:34:21 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
...The simplest way to protect LP store income would be to add learning boosters to LP stores (as suggested in the proposal IIRC) and make them cheap. Say 1-2% of the price of the equivalent implant per dose. That puts a +5 booster at, what? 1200LP and 1.2M ISK.

Then they'd be universally available, impossible to corner and widely advertised to any player doing even L1 missions for income

In that scenario there is no game play choice. You just use the boosters. This would be similar to clone costs which were removed because there was no interesting choice:

"...the current clone death mechanics. They are not a real choice, they are an illusion of choice. A choice between a bad option of losing ISK, and a worse option of losing skillpoints."

This is similar because everyone would just use the boosters.

Source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/a-new-era-of-clones/

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#30 - 2015-04-16 22:23:18 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
...The simplest way to protect LP store income would be to add learning boosters to LP stores (as suggested in the proposal IIRC) and make them cheap. Say 1-2% of the price of the equivalent implant per dose. That puts a +5 booster at, what? 1200LP and 1.2M ISK.

Then they'd be universally available, impossible to corner and widely advertised to any player doing even L1 missions for income

In that scenario there is no game play choice. You just use the boosters. This would be similar to clone costs which were removed because there was no interesting choice:

"...the current clone death mechanics. They are not a real choice, they are an illusion of choice. A choice between a bad option of losing ISK, and a worse option of losing skillpoints."

This is similar because everyone would just use the boosters.

Source: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/a-new-era-of-clones/


There is explicitly a game play choice, because there remain several strong use cases for implants

1) My holiday clone! I'm going away for 2 weeks and I can't log in to apply a new booster every 3 days
2) My empire mission/trade/R&D/production alt! This guy will never consensually PvP, so why not use implants?
3) My character farm! I'm training characters for sale. Using a learning implant will significantly reduce my effort:ISK ratio
4) I live in the ass end of W-space! Supplying boosters is irritating, but implants just keep working
5) I'm a lo-sec pirate and I know how to get my pod out! Why rent my SP gain when I can buy?
6) Pretty much any well funded character role that isn't routinely exposed to pod loss and wants to train SP


"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#31 - 2015-04-16 22:51:49 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You ran into your own law on this one, Malc.


I disagree.

Boosters make it easier for new players to achieve higher learning speeds. Older players can trivially access that advantage already. They can't be more advantaged than they already are.


What you're suggesting is not a meaningful choice. It's just pointless updating, like a Facebook game or the old skill system, or WoW Garrisons. It's not interesting gameplay either, it's just "do this pointless task or suck".

And it's taking away a meaningful choice to try and remove yet more risk of loss from the game.

This game needs more meaningful choice, not less. It needs less repetitive boring tasks, not more.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#32 - 2015-04-16 23:52:32 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
There is explicitly a game play choice, because there remain several strong use cases for implants

1) My holiday clone! I'm going away for 2 weeks and I can't log in to apply a new booster every 3 days
2) My empire mission/trade/R&D/production alt! This guy will never consensually PvP, so why not use implants?
3) My character farm! I'm training characters for sale. Using a learning implant will significantly reduce my effort:ISK ratio
4) I live in the ass end of W-space! Supplying boosters is irritating, but implants just keep working
5) I'm a lo-sec pirate and I know how to get my pod out! Why rent my SP gain when I can buy?
6) Pretty much any well funded character role that isn't routinely exposed to pod loss and wants to train SP

I had not considered this in the context of implants staying in the game. Boosters would add choice in that case.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#33 - 2015-04-17 00:04:40 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
There is explicitly a game play choice, because there remain several strong use cases for implants

1) My holiday clone! I'm going away for 2 weeks and I can't log in to apply a new booster every 3 days
2) My empire mission/trade/R&D/production alt! This guy will never consensually PvP, so why not use implants?
3) My character farm! I'm training characters for sale. Using a learning implant will significantly reduce my effort:ISK ratio
4) I live in the ass end of W-space! Supplying boosters is irritating, but implants just keep working
5) I'm a lo-sec pirate and I know how to get my pod out! Why rent my SP gain when I can buy?
6) Pretty much any well funded character role that isn't routinely exposed to pod loss and wants to train SP

I had not considered this in the context of implants staying in the game. Boosters would add choice in that case.


Wait, what? Why would you have two of them? Granted, that does add choice, but it's fairly strange.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#34 - 2015-04-17 00:11:29 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
There is explicitly a game play choice, because there remain several strong use cases for implants

1) My holiday clone! I'm going away for 2 weeks and I can't log in to apply a new booster every 3 days
2) My empire mission/trade/R&D/production alt! This guy will never consensually PvP, so why not use implants?
3) My character farm! I'm training characters for sale. Using a learning implant will significantly reduce my effort:ISK ratio
4) I live in the ass end of W-space! Supplying boosters is irritating, but implants just keep working
5) I'm a lo-sec pirate and I know how to get my pod out! Why rent my SP gain when I can buy?
6) Pretty much any well funded character role that isn't routinely exposed to pod loss and wants to train SP

I had not considered this in the context of implants staying in the game. Boosters would add choice in that case.


Wait, what? Why would you have two of them? Granted, that does add choice, but it's fairly strange.

Boosters without learning implants just become a 'no choice' option. Boosters in the context of learning implants provide an alternative choice for people who do not want to be at a SP accumulation disadvantage but also do not want their 'out in space doing stuff' implant slots tied up by non-interaction learning implants.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#35 - 2015-04-17 03:22:45 UTC
Zappity wrote:

Boosters without learning implants just become a 'no choice' option. Boosters in the context of learning implants provide an alternative choice for people who do not want to be at a SP accumulation disadvantage but also do not want their 'out in space doing stuff' implant slots tied up by non-interaction learning implants.


If it becomes possible to have your cake and eat it too, then why keep the mechanic in the first place? That's not meaningful choice either, it's the best of both worlds, and fails to commensurately reward the player who is willing to take risks.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#36 - 2015-04-17 04:24:36 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zappity wrote:

Boosters without learning implants just become a 'no choice' option. Boosters in the context of learning implants provide an alternative choice for people who do not want to be at a SP accumulation disadvantage but also do not want their 'out in space doing stuff' implant slots tied up by non-interaction learning implants.


If it becomes possible to have your cake and eat it too, then why keep the mechanic in the first place? That's not meaningful choice either, it's the best of both worlds, and fails to commensurately reward the player who is willing to take risks.

It is nothing to do with risk. I routinely PvP in implants which are more expensive than a +5 learning set. But every time I choose to use these 'interacting' implants I lose SP because I am not in the +5 set. Encouraging people to sit in 'non-interacting' learning implants is bad because we should be encouraged to be in 'interacting' implants instead.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Black Pedro
Mine.
#37 - 2015-04-17 06:04:54 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zappity wrote:

Boosters without learning implants just become a 'no choice' option. Boosters in the context of learning implants provide an alternative choice for people who do not want to be at a SP accumulation disadvantage but also do not want their 'out in space doing stuff' implant slots tied up by non-interaction learning implants.


If it becomes possible to have your cake and eat it too, then why keep the mechanic in the first place? That's not meaningful choice either, it's the best of both worlds, and fails to commensurately reward the player who is willing to take risks.

It is nothing to do with risk. I routinely PvP in implants which are more expensive than a +5 learning set. But every time I choose to use these 'interacting' implants I lose SP because I am not in the +5 set. Encouraging people to sit in 'non-interacting' learning implants is bad because we should be encouraged to be in 'interacting' implants instead.

But there is no choice. If you are a PvP player, there is no other option than to fly with your expensive pirate implants and use learning boosters. The only reason you wouldn't do that is if you could not find/afford the learning booster.

That isn't interesting gameplay. The current trade-off - character progression vs. combat advantage - isn't a necessarily a good one which is why we are discussing it, but at least it is a trade-off. Just adding boosters just gives you everything with no real decision to be made on your part. Might as well remove learning bonuses at that point.

If they were a new type of booster (or effectively an insured implant) that took up the corresponding implant slot then you might argue you have more choices. You could use regular implants, or this booster which might cost more, be temporary but persist through death. Still, since those are clearly do everything better than the current implants, just more costly in the long run, so they would give an advantage to those that can afford them.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#38 - 2015-04-17 09:23:40 UTC
The decision is analogous to manufacturing with a bpo or a bpc. Both have plausible use cases.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#39 - 2015-04-17 09:25:07 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zappity wrote:

Boosters without learning implants just become a 'no choice' option. Boosters in the context of learning implants provide an alternative choice for people who do not want to be at a SP accumulation disadvantage but also do not want their 'out in space doing stuff' implant slots tied up by non-interaction learning implants.


If it becomes possible to have your cake and eat it too, then why keep the mechanic in the first place? That's not meaningful choice either, it's the best of both worlds, and fails to commensurately reward the player who is willing to take risks.

It is nothing to do with risk. I routinely PvP in implants which are more expensive than a +5 learning set. But every time I choose to use these 'interacting' implants I lose SP because I am not in the +5 set. Encouraging people to sit in 'non-interacting' learning implants is bad because we should be encouraged to be in 'interacting' implants instead.

But there is no choice. If you are a PvP player, there is no other option than to fly with your expensive pirate implants and use learning boosters. The only reason you wouldn't do that is if you could not find/afford the learning booster.

That isn't interesting gameplay. The current trade-off - character progression vs. combat advantage - isn't a necessarily a good one which is why we are discussing it, but at least it is a trade-off. Just adding boosters just gives you everything with no real decision to be made on your part. Might as well remove learning bonuses at that point.

If they were a new type of booster (or effectively an insured implant) that took up the corresponding implant slot then you might argue you have more choices. You could use regular implants, or this booster which might cost more, be temporary but persist through death. Still, since those are clearly do everything better than the current implants, just more costly in the long run, so they would give an advantage to those that can afford them.



I have outlined several use cases above where the implant remains a better choice

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Black Pedro
Mine.
#40 - 2015-04-17 09:55:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I have outlined several use cases above where the implant remains a better choice

Pretty much all of your use cases are just balancing your perceived risk of losing your clone vs. the cost of replacing them. It's much like insurance, another mechanic many people think is problematic, where if you don't think you will lose a clone you get the implant, and if you estimate your chance of losing a clone is above extra cost of the booster, you go booster. I guess it is additional gameplay, but practically for most players there is no choice - your trader/industrialist will always go implant, and the active PvPer will always go booster.

It might reduce the hesitation of those with learning implants to PvP, but still, the PvPer has the problem that boosters are mandatory. There is no reason for them not to use them and thus you have to buy and use the most expensive one you can afford. Once you identify yourself as likely to lose the clone, or benefit too much from the pirate implant set to go without, you have no trade-off to make except for how much ISK you are willing to spend (which favours established players).
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