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Gallenteans have started the war and now are lying about it

Author
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#221 - 2015-04-15 20:16:59 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:
Liam Antolliere wrote:


All of this calamity led to the outcry of a majority that put people in positions of power that had promised a swift response and resolution to the present predicament. A cascade of power changes occurred, people of like-mind were put into positions of power and dissenting voices were removed from those positions and replaced by supporters. This is effectively known as a government take over. They consolidated power and with it, they struck back. Their response was so vile that the very same people that had just put them in power, now removed them just as swiftly.



If nothing else, I would expect the Caldari to empathise with how this could have happened.
The very same thing occurred within their own borders not so long ago.


Oh, I completely understand that feeling of sick betrayal, yes. I can't work out whether the pressures of his position drove Heth mad or if he just bided his time for longer than the UNATs did before showing his true face.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#222 - 2015-04-15 20:25:13 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It is very telling to me that you and those like you have made a career of killing those who should be your countrymen at the behest of the Federal government.


What's this about?

Also, lets be clear that I don't consider myself Caldari, and don't claim kinship. What I have is heritage, part of which is Caldari, from my father and his family. Much as I loved him, I decided a long time ago I wasn't many of the things he was, and didn't want to be. So, ya I grew up on Caldari Prime and I'm not shy about mentioning that I know a few things about the place and its people... but that doesn't make me Caldari and I know it doesn't.

That's why I left, in part. I decided I was Gallente. Which, as it happens, is pretty much how we work.


That explains it. I really don't feel a sense of kinship to you and those like you - something I've been struggling with for awhile. I suspect that in the next couple of generations this population of pre-State Caldari will make a choice as to what they are, with some seeking to reconnect to their birthright and others embracing this other heritage you speak of.

I suppose this is why I don't feel that you and those like you fall under Cold Wind's injunction to not kill other Caldari.

As a side comment, I'm quite fine with those who feel the way you do doing exactly what you did.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#223 - 2015-04-15 20:44:23 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


As a side comment, I'm quite fine with those who feel the way you do doing exactly what you did.


I mean, thanks... I guess?

My early formative school days involved a fair few minor injuries inflicted upon my fellows who weren't as tolerant.

Seriously though, what is this about:

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It is very telling to me that you and those like you have made a career of killing those who should be your countrymen at the behest of the Federal government.
Markus Error
Manfios
#224 - 2015-04-15 20:47:10 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Really, there good cookies. I made them myself. * Holds up a tray of cookies. *

Everyone needs more cookies in their lives.

"If it cannot be shot the #### down, it can always be blown the #### up."

-Unknown

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#225 - 2015-04-15 20:57:34 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It is very telling to me that you and those like you have made a career of killing those who should be your countrymen at the behest of the Federal government.


It means that you're Caldari (or so I thought) making a career out of killing Caldari. I've become inured to what my job requires me to do to FDU and Pirate crew and I've managed to come to terms with killing Amarrians and Minmatar now, but the idea that I could make a living from killing other Caldari makes me feel a bit queasy.

I'd never understood how you could do it and maintain such a positive attitude. It'd destroy me. If I told you what sort of pennance I had to serve before I was reconciled with killing the Home Guard ships that blew up those civilian freighters around New Caldari Prime...

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#226 - 2015-04-15 21:13:49 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


I'd never understood how you could do it and maintain such a positive attitude. It'd destroy me. If I told you what sort of pennance I had to serve before I was reconciled with killing the Home Guard ships that blew up those civilian freighters around New Caldari Prime...


War can make monsters of us all, living with what we've done is part of our penance. That you maintain a conscience at all is commendable.

Killing should never be done lightly and life should never be under valued.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#227 - 2015-04-16 00:45:39 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Here are a list of what I consider to be better questions:

Personal distrust shouldn’t belie presumed good faith. I will answer those questions directed towards those of us of a Federal persuasion. My options are as follows.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
2. Are there any circumstances under which the Gallentean people are unwilling to surrender property they own on Caldari Prime to State control?

Yes. It would require a significant change in tone. How one asks is often more important than what one asks for. Demands and ultimatums are usually met in kind.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
3. Is there any way for the Federal government to return control of Caldari Prime to the State without ceding any right to the control of the Luminaire system to the State?

Yes. One thing flows into another. How question two and four are resolved will be, in my estimation, the prime determinate and is predicated upon that most rare commodity…. Trust.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
5. How do we handle a situation where a Gallentean citizen does not wish to surrender ownership of property they own on Caldari Prime when control of that property is transferred from the Federation to the State where that Gallentean citizen is unwilling to live under State jurisdiction?

To avoid feeding the seemingly perpetual cycle of death, the decision to disposes Federal citizens owning property on Caldari Prime, who resist adopting should it be offered, State citizenship will have to be a Federal one.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It would be a fruitful discussion.

I agree and look forward to having it with any who care to approach the topic with a fair and rational philosophy.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#228 - 2015-04-16 01:07:03 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
...The vicious partisan nature of the war that followed certainly lends itself to the blurring of bright lines.

What galls me about your entire line of reasoning is how you invoke this idea of Gallente abuse of "majority rule" when Caldari history clearly has no concept of protections for the rights of minorities. By what moral framework can the Caldari condemn the actions of the Gallente economic elites who imposed the restrictions upon them that they felt so onerously?

Collective good? Depends on who you include in the collective, obviously. Merit? Depends on how you measure it.


To save space, I've only quoted the most relevant part of your post. My apologies, it's only in the interest of saving space.

First, I don't think that you are being fair, at all, in regards to Caldari treatment of ethnic minorities. It may surprise you, but there were many Intaki who fought with the Caldari against the Federation. Afterwards, they settled in Waschi City. Unfortunately, Waschi City had also been a haven for radical hotheads, who decided to attack and persecute the minority.

The Caldari response, along with Mordu, who created Mordu's Legion, was to crush the radicals totally and completely, reinstate the Intaki to their homes and possessions, and even offered Mordu and all his fighters membership in the Caldari Navy. Mordu refused, but even today, any member of Mordu's Legion who retires is immediately offered Caldari citizenship, regardless of race, nationality, or religion.

Or take the Achura. The Achura were "uplifted", if you will, by the Caldari, although I despise that word. The Achura were not somehow inferior beings that we found and made better. Rather, we value their perspective on the universe, we share similar traditions, from tea-making to certain semi-religious beliefs, and also, we just plain tend to get along most of the time. The Achurans are, technically, a minority in the State, but they are well on their way to being the dominant force in SuVee, the second largest Mega.

And if the State has no regard for the rights of minorities, why do we have Khanid, Amarr, and Gallente in the State, in significant numbers? I'm not saying that the State treats minorities perfectly, of course. We've made mistakes, we have our occasionally misplaced xenophobia, and we have other problems. Tibus Heth was one such problem, and I can at least say, as a Caldari Patriot, that I was one who was willing to, and did, shed blood to fight him.

And yes, if you, personally, try to act as an individual without a sense of community obligation, or if you, by your own failure to strive, do not contribute, then you will be cast out. It was true on the cold plains beneath the Kaalakiota peaks, and it is true now. We do not try to be a nice nation, only a just and efficient one.

But what the State offers is this, at least in ideal and principle: Achieve, and you will be rewarded with rights and privileges accordingly. Conform to the cultural norm that keeps our lives in harmony, and we will also live in harmony and close companionship with you. Gamble with us, and we'll happily lose our paychecks back to you. Live for the State, and your Mega, and your neighbor, and they will also live for you. All of us striving with and for each other, in harmony.

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#229 - 2015-04-16 03:47:24 UTC
Vikarion, you've misinterpreted my point about minorities to be specifically about ethnicities. Really, I was referring to political minorities.

At any rate none of those cases that you've cited demonstrate a concept of inherent "minority rights" within Caldari society. Rather, they demonstrate the principle that in certain cases non-Caldari earned rights in the State though their Merit and contribution to the Collective Good.

Let me phrase what I was getting at a different way. You're condemning the Gallente political / economic Elite who oppressed your Caldari forefathers. Under what moral framework?

Going by Caldari espoused principles of rule by the Meritorious, for the Collective Good, and ignoring the kinds of "inalienable rights" we libertarian Gallente espouse... to me it honestly sounds like "You did unto us as we would do unto ourselves."

I'm speaking of up to the point of Seccession, before the war.

Don't get me wrong, I think that the early Federation perpetrated an enormous injustice against the Caldari. Against all non-Gallente member races, even. Those Gallente Elites denied equal opportunity to non Gallente Citizens to advance their own ethnocentric agenda. They infringed on the liberty of the Caldari, and exploited them along with other non Gallente peoples. It was done, even as they espoused the very values those actions directly undermined. Again, I'm referring to injustice done long before it led to war.

But that's viewing justice through my Gallente perspective.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#230 - 2015-04-16 04:16:04 UTC
In regards to political minorities...well, the Caldari State has never promised political equality. But that's rather beside the point.

The discrimination against the Caldari as a political minority was the vehicle for discrimination against them as an ethnic and cultural minority. That's the problem. From the Caldari point of view, discrimination in political terms was a mere symptom - indeed, the entire system that allowed it was a symptom. The deeper problem was Gallente insistence on the acceptance of Gallente culture on all levels - political, economic, social, etc.

And that is one reason for the continuing conflict between our peoples. The Federation has never ceased to proclaim that the only correct way of organizing a society is on the lines of the Federation. That's why it insisted on the Minmatar's disastrous experiment with democracy, for example.

The biggest difference is cultural. The Federation insisted that we adopt its culture, or be forever confined to our homeworld. They enforced it via political means. But the core issue is our refusal to be like you. We will continue to so refuse.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#231 - 2015-04-16 04:25:58 UTC
And doesn't the Caldari State expect its non Caldari citizens to assimilate into Caldari culture? To, as you put it "Conform to the cultural norm that keeps our lives in harmony."

Again, what was wrong with the Gallente doing what you do? Under what moral framework can you condemn the pressure towards conformity?

Again, from my Gallente perspective, I view what was done as an affront to the value of diversity I believe the Federation should uphold.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#232 - 2015-04-16 04:48:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
Rinai Vero wrote:
And doesn't the Caldari State expect its non Caldari citizens to assimilate into Caldari culture? To, as you put it "Conform to the cultural norm that keeps our lives in harmony."

Again, what was wrong with the Gallente doing what you do? Under what moral framework can you condemn the pressure towards conformity?

Again, from my Gallente perspective, I view what was done as an affront to the value of diversity I believe the Federation should uphold.


Well, for one, the Caldari aren't forcing people to join or integrate into the State.

I mean, some do, and, undoubtedly, some are unhappy here. But, last I checked, the biggest problem we had with integration was that bastard, Tibus Heth, trying to force out Gallente immigrants who wanted to be here.

Certainly not our only problem, but our biggest.

I worry about us harming the Achura. They did choose to remain with us in the secession, but we must always be careful to ensure that we do not destroy what makes them...them. On the plus side, it appears that their beliefs are quite appealing to other Caldari: Achuran Traditions Prosper in the State.

I also worry about the Intaki who joined us in secession. We must never forget their sacrifices, as great as our own, and, fortunately, most Caldari seem to recognize that today. I pray that we shall never, ever, see such stupidity and meanness as a few Caldari exhibited in Waschi City. If they do, I am reluctantly willing to turn my hand against them.

The State permits ((EvE Source)) people, like the Khanid, to practice their religious traditions in private, although there is not much separation between private and public spheres. I think that such tolerance, even in a communal society like ours, is necessary. As well, we have support for freedom of speech, which is why Caldari in general protested when the Provists attempted to curtail it: Anti-Provist Rally.

Now, aside from Diana Kim, who is somewhat deranged, I am probably the most conservative Caldari you will speak to. I certainly have neither love nor pity for the Federation or its people. I say this not to be insulting, but to tell the entire truth. Yet you have asked me for my concerns, for our concerns, and I have tried to speak to them.

I am opposed to any attempt at permanent conquest of other inter-galactic nations by the State, save for (from your perspective, from mine it is simply a return) the matter of Caldari Prime. The planet was, is, and will be, ours by right, by heritage, by history. But my solution to the problem is simply - as I've stated before - to simply buy out every Gallente land-holder, until we reach the point that everything that matters is ours. At that point, it will be overwhelmingly obvious that the Federation has no reason to hold onto it save for arrogance and spite. I'm hoping that, at that point, the Federation will manage to be lacking at least one of those unhelpful qualities.

This is a somewhat detailed answer to a brief question, but I think it needed to be answered in specific detail. Overall, I think the State has avoided the mistakes of the Duvalier regime, and I think that if we hold to Caldari principles, we will continue to do so.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#233 - 2015-04-16 05:28:54 UTC
Ach, you're a much better speaker on this subject than I am, Vikarion. You've managed to encapsulate the social conservatism that underlies our culture without raising anyone's hackles. Well done.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#234 - 2015-04-16 05:33:13 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
2. Are there any circumstances under which the Gallentean people are unwilling to surrender property they own on Caldari Prime to State control?

Yes. It would require a significant change in tone. How one asks is often more important than what one asks for. Demands and ultimatums are usually met in kind.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
3. Is there any way for the Federal government to return control of Caldari Prime to the State without ceding any right to the control of the Luminaire system to the State?

Yes. One thing flows into another. How question two and four are resolved will be, in my estimation, the prime determinate and is predicated upon that most rare commodity…. Trust.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
5. How do we handle a situation where a Gallentean citizen does not wish to surrender ownership of property they own on Caldari Prime when control of that property is transferred from the Federation to the State where that Gallentean citizen is unwilling to live under State jurisdiction?

To avoid feeding the seemingly perpetual cycle of death, the decision to disposes Federal citizens owning property on Caldari Prime, who resist adopting should it be offered, State citizenship will have to be a Federal one.
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It would be a fruitful discussion.

I agree and look forward to having it with any who care to approach the topic with a fair and rational philosophy.


2. Tone really isn't an issue to me. If it gets results, I'll ask nicely, in high Garoun on Caille university's quad at midday.

3. The question of how the Federation can guarantee the safety and free-access of State shipping to Home without it looking like another blockade has been occupying me, of late, I hope the solution is as simple as you make it seem.

5. I suppose they wouldn't even need to be dispossessed. I should imagine that they'd sell up and move out after a generation or two - the only thing that worries me is a resumption of the kind of armed resistance that typified the Liberation period. We really only know one way to quell that, and I don't see the Federation sitting still for it in their own backyard.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Vikarion
Doomheim
#235 - 2015-04-16 05:54:32 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Ach, you're a much better speaker on this subject than I am, Vikarion. You've managed to encapsulate the social conservatism that underlies our culture without raising anyone's hackles. Well done.


Why, thank you. Now that's a compliment that will remain with me.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#236 - 2015-04-16 10:18:08 UTC
Arkady Vachon wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I swear with my honor of Caldari Officer. I haven't impregnated anyone!


That...would be a pretty good trick.

Unless, of course, you only identify your gender as female as opposed to your actual anatomy.

But hey, whatever works for you.

The gender is identified by medical personnel, who are specialists in anatomy and genetics, Mr. Vachon. I am a soldier, not a medical personnel to identify anyone's gender.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#237 - 2015-04-16 10:21:15 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Markus Error wrote:
And in their pursuit of being entirely non-Gallente, they've decided such things as human rights and equality aren't Caldari enough.

Cute.

Respectfully....

Equality is indeed a Gallentean value. The Caldari are meritocratic; they believe that people are best led by those who can best lead. Not all who lead get there by merit, of course, but the general idea is that of rule by the most capable.

Please also remember that places where the "people have spoken" in Caldari history, and forced the elites to come to terms, included the rise of Tibus Heth. In one sense, it was a moment of renewal for the Caldari. In another ... well.

If you want negotiating partners in the State, you maybe don't want too much equality breaking out too soon.

As for human rights ... well, "rights," of course, exist. Large packages of rights come along with corporate citizenship, just for one example.

Rights you get just by being human, though? Not ... so much.

Equality is one huge lie and misconception used by the Federation to turn peoples into identical grey electorate mass. Biology and science tell us that in fact every human being is different and definitely not equal to any other (unless they are clones). If you wish to discuss it further, we might make a new thread.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#238 - 2015-04-16 10:25:12 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
At this point, it is important to define a few things.

"Equality" as defined by the Gallente (and the Federation) isn't a measure of an individual's capabilities, monetary value, societal worth or other quantifiable measurement. It is the belief in an intrinsic value of all humanity, a value that demands all individuals be afforded the same liberties and opportunities under governance as any other individual.

If individuals have different capabilities, monetary value and social worth, how in Maker sake could you demand them to have same "liberties" and "opportunities"?!
Cease and desist.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#239 - 2015-04-16 11:02:16 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

If individuals have different capabilities, monetary value and social worth, how in Maker sake could you demand them to have same "liberties" and "opportunities"?!
Cease and desist.


Mademoiselle Kim,

You are an anomaly among your peers. While most Caldari make it a point to stay out of the affairs of other nations and would prefer other nations do the same toward them; you habitually seek to tell Gallente (and the Federation) how we should conduct ourselves. I find that intriguing.

If you cannot understand why we feel it is necessary to afford the same liberties and opportunities to every individual so they may choose their own path in life suitable to their capabilities and desires, then I can fully understand why you find our society so detestable.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#240 - 2015-04-16 11:22:58 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:

Pro Tip: you lied, you broke faith, you broke a legally binding contract. Go preach to someone who doesn't know their history about how honorable and amazingly upright you are.

It was an unlimited contract.
Lets imagine it were two peoples, one was gallente and second was caldari. And lets imagine, one side decided to break the contract. What would be answers?
Caldari: - Okay, you have 30 days to close all obligations.
Gallente: - No, you can't! In fact... YOU LIED, YOU BROKE FAITH, WE KILL YOU NOW!

In fact, I believe that the whole contract from the start was wrong and should become void. But if you, gallentean, think that contract was fair... well, I think I will agree to an option, where gallente and caldari can be reunited under the contract with little modifications:
1) Gallente Federation will be renamed to Caldari Federation
2) All gallente colonies (all worlds besides Gallente Prime) will be transferred under jurisdiction and direct rule of Caldari megacorporations, disregarding want you this or no.
And if you won't agree to these terms, your homeworld shall be bombarded from the orbit and occupied for the next 200 years.
That waill be fair, because, gallentean, that was what you were doing.

You gallenteans definitely must taste some justice.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.