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Margin Trading Scam - It is time for change.

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Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#41 - 2015-04-15 13:58:53 UTC
X Seven wrote:
As it seems not many in this thread like what I am trying to do. The basic, mere basic of risk is one sided on this issue. When I say one sided I mean there is 0 risk for the buyer when done correctly. 0 risk for the buyer. His name isn't given out, he is protected. No one knows who he is. There can be no retaliation against him. He is more protected than anyone else in this game. Call me greedy all you want but the guys doing the buy orders with ultimate protection are just as greedy as anyone else in this game. The Buyer has 0 risk against them. The person many of you are defending has no risk in this game. We all talk a good game about risk but risk should go both ways. I want to know who is screwing me over when I get screwed over. If this is market pvp then I want it like ship pvp. I want to know who didn't take the order. Who took their money out of their wallet. If you lose your ship I guarantee you are looking at that combat log. Looking to see who killed you. I bet that combat log has the names of those who just shot you. Well the guys who sell to these buyers don't get that. Don't start with the sellers because that is a different toon that does that. We know the names of the toons we buy from. If a buy order is issued whether it goes through or not you should at least get the name of the toon. That would be risk on the buyers part. I would be happy if they had at least some risk in this game instead of being fully protected and anonymous.

But there is risk.

The scammer has just spent broker's fees... non-refundable broker's fees. These fees scale in proportion to how overpriced the items asked for are. They've committed an amount of money to initiate the scam. If nobody bites, that's money lost.

Further, if nobody bites, they may have an item nobody is going to buy off them. Margin Trading scams are often done on low-velocity items. These are items that are rarely sold because they're both; crap, and hard to acquire.


So, there is risk. It's just not the risk you happen to want.
X Seven
Noob Corp Inc
#42 - 2015-04-15 16:31:41 UTC  |  Edited by: X Seven
Very little risk at all. Ooooooooo brokers fees. Its too risky....
Iain Cariaba
#43 - 2015-04-15 20:37:06 UTC
X Seven wrote:
Whine...

So, when you get the letter/e-mail from the Nigerian prince about how he'll send you a pile of cash if you provide him your banking information, do you smile and send out your account number, or do you recognize that the deal is too good to be true and trash the letter? Same. Basic. Principle.

The market of EvE operates under the rule of caveat emptor. Your inability to properly research market orders is not a problem for CCP to address.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#44 - 2015-04-15 21:36:21 UTC
X Seven wrote:
Very little risk at all. Ooooooooo brokers fees. Its too risky....

CCP has a song written for you.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#45 - 2015-04-15 22:54:29 UTC
X Seven wrote:
Very little risk at all. Ooooooooo brokers fees. Its too risky....


You're not even trying to hide your tears anymore. You should honestly just have the ISD lock the thread for the sake of your dignity.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
X Seven
Noob Corp Inc
#46 - 2015-04-16 03:10:19 UTC
I would love something that just justifies the risk side of the buyer besides some lame broker fee. Give names of the actual buyer when failed at least. If not that then any of the other adjustments I have suggested. I just want this looked at again by Ccp and the CSM. There is something wrong with this wether you all think there is not.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#47 - 2015-04-16 03:28:57 UTC
X Seven wrote:
There is something wrong with this wether you all think there is not.

Yeah... well... ya know... that's just like uhh... your opinion man.


The more I think about this... the more and more I see the Margin Scam as the market equivalent of a Suicide Gank.

You're best form protection is taking precautions (researching) and avoiding it altogether. Your best recourse is to use the mechanics against them.


Hint: As someone said before... buy the item cheap somewhere else and try to sell it to the suspected margin scam buy order. The larger the buy order amount is, the higher the market fees will be.
For example: On a 1 bil ISK buy order, the market fee can be anywhere from 1 to 5%. Without you buying the "baited item" from the scammer in the first place (because you bought it somewhere else for much cheaper), that is an automatic 10 to 50+ million ISK loss right there.

How did you Veterans start?
Black Pedro
Mine.
#48 - 2015-04-16 08:25:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
X Seven wrote:
I would love something that just justifies the risk side of the buyer besides some lame broker fee. Give names of the actual buyer when failed at least. If not that then any of the other adjustments I have suggested. I just want this looked at again by Ccp and the CSM. There is something wrong with this wether you all think there is not.
Maybe the fact that everyone in this thread, including a former CSM member who has discussed this issue with CCP, disagrees with you should make you question your basic premise that something is wrong. Scamming is part of Eve and the margin trading scam is just one variation of several scams that induce players to pay too much for an item.

Just move on and just be more careful in the future. Or better yet, set up your own margin trade scams and make back your ISK that way.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
X Seven
Noob Corp Inc
#49 - 2015-04-17 13:41:34 UTC  |  Edited by: X Seven
I understand scamming is a part of eve but when eve is a part of scamming, this is where I draw the line. Typing in the wrong price by an extra 0 is scamming. I will disagree with all of you on this as long as the client continues to protect the scammers and not look out for the ones who really make eve's market a viable place.
Iain Cariaba
#50 - 2015-04-17 17:36:27 UTC
X Seven wrote:
I understand scamming is a part of eve but when eve is a part of scamming is where I draw the line. Typing in the wrong price by a extra 0 is scamming. I will disagree with all of you on this as long as the client continues to protect the scammers and not look out for the ones who really make eve's market a viable place.

Don't like scammers, don't use the market. Simple as that. Build and farm everything you use.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#51 - 2015-04-17 23:51:43 UTC
X Seven wrote:
I understand scamming is a part of eve but when eve is a part of scamming, this is where I draw the line.


Your only course of action then is to quit the game. Scamming is not just implied gameplay, but intended and approved.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Conflict Engaged
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2015-04-18 10:02:31 UTC
X Seven wrote:
I understand scamming is a part of eve but when eve is a part of scamming, this is where I draw the line. Typing in the wrong price by an extra 0 is scamming. I will disagree with all of you on this as long as the client continues to protect the scammers and not look out for the ones who really make eve's market a viable place.

There's a difference between scamming and overpaying. If you paid for something and you can't afford for something to go wrong, if the brokers fees are really that high, you shouldn't be buying/selling in that area.

There is no way of countering the margin trading scam without making the skill Margin Trading completely useless. It is a vital tool for trading, and if you were a trader you would understand.
Lakotnik
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#53 - 2015-04-20 07:32:49 UTC
The thing is, if you make margin trading (which is a skill needing to be trained) illegal, you might as well ban all other sorts of scamming in eve and refund everyone that ever got scammed out of anything and ban the perpetrators.

Wait, I actually agree with this. Would be fun to see CFC membership numbers dropping to about 1/3 of what they are now for them impersonation/recruitment scams.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2015-04-20 11:19:29 UTC
Lakotnik wrote:
The thing is, if you make margin trading (which is a skill needing to be trained) illegal, you might as well ban all other sorts of scamming in eve and refund everyone that ever got scammed out of anything and ban the perpetrators.

Wait, I actually agree with this. Would be fun to see CFC membership numbers dropping to about 1/3 of what they are now for them impersonation/recruitment scams.


Eve should have it's own corollary to Godwin's Law regarding the CFC/Goonswarm.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#55 - 2015-04-20 20:04:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Lakotnik wrote:
The thing is, if you make margin trading (which is a skill needing to be trained) illegal, you might as well ban all other sorts of scamming in eve and refund everyone that ever got scammed out of anything and ban the perpetrators.

Wait, I actually agree with this. Would be fun to see CFC membership numbers dropping to about 1/3 of what they are now for them impersonation/recruitment scams.


Not to mention - and this cannot be overemphasised - that rather more than 99% of margin trades are "legitimate" orders.

Like the majority of scams, the margin trade scam only works on people who think they're the scammers in the deal. Which makes it problematic to understand why one should have any sympathy for them:

"I was going to beat this little kid up for a laugh but then it turned out he had 3 brothers bigger than me. Kids smaller than me shouldn't be allowed BY LAW to have big brothers because it was totally unfair to expect me to fight 3 big guys also I have a mental disorder that cripples my self-awareness!"

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Sylphy
TSOE Po1ice
TSOE Consortium
#56 - 2015-04-21 09:25:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Lakotnik wrote:
The thing is, if you make margin trading (which is a skill needing to be trained) illegal, you might as well ban all other sorts of scamming in eve and refund everyone that ever got scammed out of anything and ban the perpetrators.

Wait, I actually agree with this. Would be fun to see CFC membership numbers dropping to about 1/3 of what they are now for them impersonation/recruitment scams.


Not to mention - and this cannot be overemphasised - that rather more than 99% of margin trades are "legitimate" orders.

Like the majority of scams, the margin trade scam only works on people who think they're the scammers in the deal. Which makes it problematic to understand why one should have any sympathy for them:

"I was going to beat this little kid up for a laugh but then it turned out he had 3 brothers bigger than me. Kids smaller than me shouldn't be allowed BY LAW to have big brothers because it was totally unfair to expect me to fight 3 big guys also I have a mental disorder that cripples my self-awareness!"


Yeah, that's ussually how it is. That's what the skill is supposed to be for. So you can place huge amounts of buy orders without having to tie up all your capital. So even if something in Jita still isn't producing results, it doesn't tie up your cash to fulfil those orders in Dodixie.

The character does not represent the views/opinions of its Corporation or Alliance.
Miami Jones
Virtual Industry Inc.
New Eden Bling Empire
#57 - 2015-04-27 05:03:27 UTC
X Seven wrote:
I really don't care if we remove Margin Trading altogether.


Yeah well guess what? More players want this to stay in the game than those that don't. You want to affect trading profitability of thousands of players as long as CCP makes you happy. This suggestion has no merit.

/closethread
corebloodbrothers
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#58 - 2015-05-04 08:41:27 UTC
Before i made csm i made a post on margin trading, and ccp answered its a feáture, so i tried it af ee times myself and make nice isk. When i started runnign csm i Stopped, so i know how it works

There is several kinds of scams wit it. Once where there is only enough money for 25 % of the inflated or rare item. Those are the dumb onces, u can crash their order if u own the item, i even collect stuff they liek to crash them and make money of them.

The other one is where u first sell a minimum amoutn to yourself, so there is 0.0 isk in the escrow left and a market buy value of billions. It will always collaps. And leave the victim scammed.

Escrow however is also used alot in legit ways that drive the economy. So the trick woudl be too keep that and fix the other exploit.
It is doable since you coudl do a exception math. If the order in cant be forfilled with the minimum sale possible, then the order cant hold, as noone can sell anything too anythign on your buy list. It would leave honest owners options.

So basically:

Buyin: 10 items of 100 mill a piece, with a minimum of 10. So minimum sale is 1 bill, escrow needs to hold 1 bill or buy order falls

Buying 10 items of 100 mill a piece, minimum of 5 , ecrow meeds too hold 500 mill
Buying 10 items of 100 mill a piece, minimum of 1 ,escrow needs to be 100 mill, escrow skiill overwrites, 250 minimum

Bit technical, but that woudl fix it, however i havent as a csm found much enthousaism for it, but its on my list. I can show any ccp life sometime how to set up a escrow with 0 isk in and buy orders of billions, rigged too collaps
Stuyvenstein Pompetti
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2015-05-04 12:51:40 UTC
I never really knew about this until I read this post. I'm guessing this is associated with those "Market fail order" posts you'll see in market hubs like Amarr and Jita.

If that's the case I'd agree with the majority, if you're gonna be stupid and/or greedy, then you'd have to pay the price. Because this skill is great for traders, and people who are incapable of doing thorough research make it a great skill for scammers too :)

I'd say this skill should stay, and people should instead brush up on their scam detection abilities....
Mag's
Azn Empire
#60 - 2015-05-04 14:50:24 UTC
corebloodbrothers wrote:
Before i made csm i made a post on margin trading, and ccp answered its a feáture, so i tried it af ee times myself and make nice isk. When i started runnign csm i Stopped, so i know how it works

There is several kinds of scams wit it. Once where there is only enough money for 25 % of the inflated or rare item. Those are the dumb onces, u can crash their order if u own the item, i even collect stuff they liek to crash them and make money of them.

The other one is where u first sell a minimum amoutn to yourself, so there is 0.0 isk in the escrow left and a market buy value of billions. It will always collaps. And leave the victim scammed.

Escrow however is also used alot in legit ways that drive the economy. So the trick woudl be too keep that and fix the other exploit.
It is doable since you coudl do a exception math. If the order in cant be forfilled with the minimum sale possible, then the order cant hold, as noone can sell anything too anythign on your buy list. It would leave honest owners options.

So basically:

Buyin: 10 items of 100 mill a piece, with a minimum of 10. So minimum sale is 1 bill, escrow needs to hold 1 bill or buy order falls

Buying 10 items of 100 mill a piece, minimum of 5 , ecrow meeds too hold 500 mill
Buying 10 items of 100 mill a piece, minimum of 1 ,escrow needs to be 100 mill, escrow skiill overwrites, 250 minimum

Bit technical, but that woudl fix it, however i havent as a csm found much enthousaism for it, but its on my list. I can show any ccp life sometime how to set up a escrow with 0 isk in and buy orders of billions, rigged too collaps
I'm starting to regret my vote. Lol

That post is all well and good, but ignores the person being scammed and their initial intentions. How can you think of making a change such as yours, without looking to them first?

So ask yourself, what was their thought process before hand. What did they expect to gain from the order, who did they think would be better off and less well off after it completed? Let's face it they were simply over charged for something. They paid well over the normal market price, so ask yourself why.

I'm all for giving players information to help them, but I'm dead against changing mechanics to help the lazy. Because that's what we have here. Those so set on ripping others off, that they fail to gather more info than the buy and sell order price. Given the fact the information that helps them avoid this expensive mistake, is readily at hand.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
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