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Dev blog: A quick update from Team Security - Recap from Fanfest 2015

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Lea De Dijon
Inner Circle Research
#41 - 2015-04-14 00:42:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lea De Dijon
Dirk MacGirk, I am not sure how you construct this now. If i expand on what has been said above I have to assume that any info taken from a window or screen in eve in general and processed outside the client (no API, real game screen) it could be considered 'illegal'. Especially if i requires only a combination of key strokes captured by the 3rd party application, not manual copy and paste.

Rgds
Lea
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#42 - 2015-04-14 01:34:08 UTC
Lea De Dijon wrote:
Dirk MacGirk, I am not sure how you construct this now. If i expand on what has been said above I have to assume that any info taken from a window or screen in eve in general and processed outside the client (no API, real game screen) it could be considered 'illegal'. Especially if i requires only a combination of key strokes captured by the 3rd party application, not manual copy and paste.

Rgds
Lea


Well, if you assume all of that then you will be in very safe territory. You should know that it doesn't include all that. But by using that as your buffer you will truly be safe
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#43 - 2015-04-14 02:18:59 UTC
I haven't been following all this. Are programs like PLH which monitor your clipboard OK? You Ctrl+C local which loads into PLH.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2015-04-14 02:46:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinete Jenius
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Trakow wrote:
I fully expect CCP to continue ignoring the childish posts of "but why didn't HE get in trouble?" or "why is THIS allowed?" and screen resolutions or graphics card drivers getting bans and such... My hats off to you for having a high tolerance!

Keep up the good work CCP! Cool

I have actual concerns here and I was hoping for some answers.


I run in windowed mode and all those questions are relevant to how I play.


Nah, you're just trolling. Badly. Or trying to one up Shadow in the "I have more question now than before" category.

I have fingers, but that guy doesn't. Aren't fingers an advantage? Is CCP gonna ban fingers now? Can I use all 10 of my fingers or just 7 before I get caught. The EULA is unclear about physical advantage in a world of special needs. Would CCP actually try and take away my fingers? That isn't legal in most parts of America or Western Europe. What if I was at FanFest? Is finger taking legal in Iceland?

Yeah I'm just trolling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZz_5dI6fgM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4bZm2-gTwE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZahhEjfAso

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pYOv7T6bug

I take the troll that far apparently...
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#45 - 2015-04-14 03:09:50 UTC
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Trakow wrote:
I fully expect CCP to continue ignoring the childish posts of "but why didn't HE get in trouble?" or "why is THIS allowed?" and screen resolutions or graphics card drivers getting bans and such... My hats off to you for having a high tolerance!

Keep up the good work CCP! Cool

I have actual concerns here and I was hoping for some answers.


I run in windowed mode and all those questions are relevant to how I play.


Nah, you're just trolling. Badly. Or trying to one up Shadow in the "I have more question now than before" category.

I have fingers, but that guy doesn't. Aren't fingers an advantage? Is CCP gonna ban fingers now? Can I use all 10 of my fingers or just 7 before I get caught. The EULA is unclear about physical advantage in a world of special needs. Would CCP actually try and take away my fingers? That isn't legal in most parts of America or Western Europe. What if I was at FanFest? Is finger taking legal in Iceland?

Yeah I'm just trolling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZz_5dI6fgM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4bZm2-gTwE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZahhEjfAso

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pYOv7T6bug

I take the troll that far apparently...


OK, so from what I see you are playing in windowed mode using multiple instances. EVE provides for windowed mode out of the box. I don't see anything you are doing there as being even close to a violation. Multiple windows, have to activate the current windown, no VFx dashboard, single click = single action, no macros or round robins or rollovers. What's your question? You're playing EVE using the tools the developer gave you. Or so it seems from the video at a glance. Are you doing something other than playing EVE in windowed mode? Arranging full EVE windows isn't a violation.

I apologize for saying you were trolling, but are you really unclear that windowed mode isn't totally legal? It is on EVE's Display & Graphic tab.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2015-04-14 03:11:33 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:


Dear ShadowandLight, I understand your frustration. I've seen your posts on pretty much every discussion forum on the internet talking about this exact topic.
The EULA is designed to cover as many "situations" or scenarios as possible, but it cannot realistically expect to cover everything in great detail. We believe the current interpretation of the relevant EULA clauses to be in the best interest of the game and our players.

As for your key remaps, you can use the in-game remaps and key bindings at your leisure. The moment you start using third-party tools to remap keys or "change the way the game is played" in any way, you are in murky territory, because of 6.A.2:
"You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."


I would very much like to see a clarifying statement on this. As all of my keystrokes must go through logitech hardware and software to even get to my OS not to mention Eve I fail to see how logitech is a third party. Also effectively moving my f1 key to the lower lefthand side of my screen does not seem like it is modifying the way that I play the game especially considering that I can remap keys in game.

I highly doubt that you would have any problem with me using my G keys to activate modules but your wording here seems not clear.


Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2015-04-14 03:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinete Jenius
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:
Trakow wrote:
I fully expect CCP to continue ignoring the childish posts of "but why didn't HE get in trouble?" or "why is THIS allowed?" and screen resolutions or graphics card drivers getting bans and such... My hats off to you for having a high tolerance!

Keep up the good work CCP! Cool

I have actual concerns here and I was hoping for some answers.


I run in windowed mode and all those questions are relevant to how I play.


Nah, you're just trolling. Badly. Or trying to one up Shadow in the "I have more question now than before" category.

I have fingers, but that guy doesn't. Aren't fingers an advantage? Is CCP gonna ban fingers now? Can I use all 10 of my fingers or just 7 before I get caught. The EULA is unclear about physical advantage in a world of special needs. Would CCP actually try and take away my fingers? That isn't legal in most parts of America or Western Europe. What if I was at FanFest? Is finger taking legal in Iceland?

Yeah I'm just trolling.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZz_5dI6fgM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4bZm2-gTwE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZahhEjfAso

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pYOv7T6bug

I take the troll that far apparently...


OK, so from what I see you are playing in windowed mode using multiple instances. EVE provides for windowed mode out of the box. I don't see anything you are doing there as being even close to a violation. Multiple windows, have to activate the current windown, no VFx dashboard, single click = single action, no macros or round robins or rollovers. What's your question? You're playing EVE using the tools the developer gave you. Or so it seems from the video at a glance. Are you doing something other than playing EVE in windowed mode? Arranging full EVE windows isn't a violation.

I apologize for saying you were trolling, but are you really unclear that windowed mode isn't totally legal? It is on EVE's Display & Graphic tab.
Except now the EULA and the statements are completely different. Windowed mode only exists because of a third party program called windows. Every question was relevant to my activity.

The ease of use functions available in all windows "changes" the way the game is played by allowing me to do things like mouse over focus. I want to use that function of the OS but the way they are wording this stuff I could be falling into a ban as a result. I want a clarification if I'm allowed to use those OS functions. These are only part of my questions the full list is in the post you deemed to be a "troll post"....


BTW I don't have to hit hotkeys for every window. For example when taking the gate I just hold D and click through the windows. Is that bannable? I'm not using anything other then a standard mechanical keyboard (nothing fancy other then nice switches) and windows 7 pro.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2015-04-14 03:29:10 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:


Dear ShadowandLight, I understand your frustration. I've seen your posts on pretty much every discussion forum on the internet talking about this exact topic.
The EULA is designed to cover as many "situations" or scenarios as possible, but it cannot realistically expect to cover everything in great detail. We believe the current interpretation of the relevant EULA clauses to be in the best interest of the game and our players.

As for your key remaps, you can use the in-game remaps and key bindings at your leisure. The moment you start using third-party tools to remap keys or "change the way the game is played" in any way, you are in murky territory, because of 6.A.2:
"You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."


I would very much like to see a clarifying statement on this. As all of my keystrokes must go through logitech hardware and software to even get to my OS not to mention Eve I fail to see how logitech is a third party. Also effectively moving my f1 key to the lower lefthand side of my screen does not seem like it is modifying the way that I play the game especially considering that I can remap keys in game.

I highly doubt that you would have any problem with me using my G keys to activate modules but your wording here seems not clear.


Every single program running on your computer other then those installed by CCP are considered third party. Even your operating system and drivers are third party.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#49 - 2015-04-14 03:32:50 UTC
Quote:
Fanfest is over, and I think I finally lost my hangover.
I hope this was written a while ago, otherwise that is one mean, month-long hangover.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#50 - 2015-04-14 03:43:05 UTC
Kinete Jenius wrote:


Except now the EULA and the statements are completely different. Windowed mode only exists because of a third party program called windows. Every question was relevant to my activity.

The ease of use functions available in all windows "changes" the way the game is played by allowing me to do things like mouse over focus. I want to use that function of the OS but the way they are wording this stuff I could be falling into a ban as a result. I want a clarification if I'm allowed to use those OS functions. These are only part of my questions the full list is in the post you deemed to be a "troll post"....



Ah, I see. Windows, the operating system, allows CCP to give you windowed mode, thus Windows is itself a third-party program the contributes to a EULA violation. Yes, I see why you might be concerned.

Look, when you start off from that perspective, one might get the idea you're trying to troll. That's cool. I wasn't really clear about what they were targeting entirely back when all this began in December. And I too asked for clarity. But I think I now know what will and won't get you into trouble or get you banned. I'm not sure that anyone will be able to convince those who don't already get it. Not that I really think they don't get it. Hey, I wish you well in finding your path to the EULA enlightenment you seek. Play safe.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#51 - 2015-04-14 04:00:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinete Jenius
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:


Except now the EULA and the statements are completely different. Windowed mode only exists because of a third party program called windows. Every question was relevant to my activity.

The ease of use functions available in all windows "changes" the way the game is played by allowing me to do things like mouse over focus. I want to use that function of the OS but the way they are wording this stuff I could be falling into a ban as a result. I want a clarification if I'm allowed to use those OS functions. These are only part of my questions the full list is in the post you deemed to be a "troll post"....



Ah, I see. Windows, the operating system, allows CCP to give you windowed mode, thus Windows is itself a third-party program the contributes to a EULA violation. Yes, I see why you might be concerned.

Look, when you start off from that perspective, one might get the idea you're trying to troll. That's cool. I wasn't really clear about what they were targeting entirely back when all this began in December. And I too asked for clarity. But I think I now know what will and won't get you into trouble or get you banned. I'm not sure that anyone will be able to convince those who don't already get it. Not that I really think they don't get it. Hey, I wish you well in finding your path to the EULA enlightenment you seek. Play safe.

I'm trying that's why I'm not using any of the fancy stuff in windows and I'm only running eve clients.

Outside of that video is a screen to my right that has a nestor and is part of the primary system.

To the left is a secondary system that uses a second keyboard and mouse along with a dedicated monitor. That system runs my booster. ore dropper and second nestor.

Seen here in a bad quality picture a friend took for me because my phone can no longer use SSD cards and as a result refuses to work as a camera.

http://i.imgur.com/7spamN0.jpg



I don't get why video fx is banned. I run sites just as quick in windowed mode as I would if I used a videofx setup. That fact alone is what scares me.
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#52 - 2015-04-14 04:09:06 UTC
Kinete Jenius wrote:

I'm trying that's why I'm not using any of the fancy stuff in windows and I'm only running eve clients.

Outside of that video is a screen to my right that has a nestor and is part of the primary system.

To the left is a secondary system that uses a second keyboard and mouse along with a dedicated monitor. That system runs my booster. ore dropper and second nestor.

Seen here

http://i.imgur.com/7spamN0.jpg



I hate to say this, but I do so with 100% honesty.

If your "too fast" compared to a baseline that we dont know of, you will probably get banned assuming we are to believe the half or so dozen people who reported the same.

CCP has no method to tell the difference if your using a macro (unless its painfully obvious) or you are just good at multiboxing and alt-tabbing...

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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#53 - 2015-04-14 04:33:14 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:

I'm trying that's why I'm not using any of the fancy stuff in windows and I'm only running eve clients.

Outside of that video is a screen to my right that has a nestor and is part of the primary system.

To the left is a secondary system that uses a second keyboard and mouse along with a dedicated monitor. That system runs my booster. ore dropper and second nestor.

Seen here

http://i.imgur.com/7spamN0.jpg



I hate to say this, but I do so with 100% honesty.

If your "too fast" compared to a baseline that we dont know of, you will probably get banned assuming we are to believe the half or so dozen people who reported the same.

CCP has no method to tell the difference if your using a macro (unless its painfully obvious) or you are just good at multiboxing and alt-tabbing...


Shadow - We don't know that they have a speed baseline. Could make sense, in the absence of some other method, but we don't honestly know what tool(s) they are using or what the chance is for a false positive.

Maybe one day CCP_EdwardSnowden will shoot some docs to EVEWikiLeaks and out the fact that they are looking into your machine. But until then, its all just speculation because they won't give it away so that some crafty soul out there can find a way of masking the signature
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2015-04-14 04:38:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Kinete Jenius
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
ShadowandLight wrote:
Kinete Jenius wrote:

I'm trying that's why I'm not using any of the fancy stuff in windows and I'm only running eve clients.

Outside of that video is a screen to my right that has a nestor and is part of the primary system.

To the left is a secondary system that uses a second keyboard and mouse along with a dedicated monitor. That system runs my booster. ore dropper and second nestor.

Seen here

http://i.imgur.com/7spamN0.jpg



I hate to say this, but I do so with 100% honesty.

If your "too fast" compared to a baseline that we dont know of, you will probably get banned assuming we are to believe the half or so dozen people who reported the same.

CCP has no method to tell the difference if your using a macro (unless its painfully obvious) or you are just good at multiboxing and alt-tabbing...


Shadow - We don't know that they have a speed baseline. Could make sense, in the absence of some other method, but we don't honestly know what tool(s) they are using or what the chance is for a false positive.

Maybe one day CCP_EdwardSnowden will shoot some docs to EVEWikiLeaks and out the fact that they are looking into your machine. But until then, its all just speculation because they won't give it away so that some crafty soul out there can find a way of masking the signature

I would settle for a "yeah that's cool" response to the videos of my setup. Answering some of my questions would be huge too. Instead of the "read the eula and go to the update thread" responses.
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#55 - 2015-04-14 05:06:59 UTC
Kinete Jenius wrote:

I would settle for a "yeah that's cool" response to the videos of my setup. Answering some of my questions would be huge too. Instead of the "read the eula and go to the update thread" responses.


I can only suggest you send your specific inquiry to CCP via petition, as they have requested individuals do. They won't answer generalizations in public areas. You may get a crappy EULA copy/paste, but a petition is the best chance for you to get an answer specific to you.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2015-04-14 05:11:44 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
I can only suggest you send your specific inquiry to CCP via petition, as they have requested individuals do. They won't answer generalizations in public areas. You may get a crappy EULA copy/paste, but a petition is the best chance for you to get an answer specific to you.

Any tickets sent in that even brush near multiboxing are responded with "Go look at the thread". CCP says "send a ticket", GMs say "look at the thread".
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#57 - 2015-04-14 05:26:55 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
I can only suggest you send your specific inquiry to CCP via petition, as they have requested individuals do. They won't answer generalizations in public areas. You may get a crappy EULA copy/paste, but a petition is the best chance for you to get an answer specific to you.

Any tickets sent in that even brush near multiboxing are responded with "Go look at the thread". CCP says "send a ticket", GMs say "look at the thread".


I cannot vouch for the outcome, just the CCP prescribed method. So other than that, what's his option? It ain't posting youtube vids in the forums. They won't answer that. So since the CCP method doesn't work for you, then what should he do? Stomp his feet? Talk about Windows and Evemon? Debate whether there is an expectation of equal protection under a EULA enforceable in an Icelandic court of law?
Safdrof Uta
Echelon Research
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2015-04-14 05:31:14 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
I can only suggest you send your specific inquiry to CCP via petition, as they have requested individuals do. They won't answer generalizations in public areas. You may get a crappy EULA copy/paste, but a petition is the best chance for you to get an answer specific to you.

Any tickets sent in that even brush near multiboxing are responded with "Go look at the thread". CCP says "send a ticket", GMs say "look at the thread".



Would you shut up already Nolak.

Multiboxing is bad, stop crying, every one is sick and tired of you complaining.
Kinete Jenius
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2015-04-14 05:57:01 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
I can only suggest you send your specific inquiry to CCP via petition, as they have requested individuals do. They won't answer generalizations in public areas. You may get a crappy EULA copy/paste, but a petition is the best chance for you to get an answer specific to you.

Any tickets sent in that even brush near multiboxing are responded with "Go look at the thread". CCP says "send a ticket", GMs say "look at the thread".


I cannot vouch for the outcome, just the CCP prescribed method. So other than that, what's his option? It ain't posting youtube vids in the forums. They won't answer that. So since the CCP method doesn't work for you, then what should he do? Stomp his feet? Talk about Windows and Evemon? Debate whether there is an expectation of equal protection under a EULA enforceable in an Icelandic court of law?

Well I figured maybe I'd get some attention here and get a better response in private communication.

It's a long shot I know but at this point I'm trying everything.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#60 - 2015-04-14 07:26:41 UTC
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
CCP Peligro wrote:
Dear ShadowandLight, I understand your frustration. I've seen your posts on pretty much every discussion forum on the internet talking about this exact topic.
The EULA is designed to cover as many "situations" or scenarios as possible, but it cannot realistically expect to cover everything in great detail. We believe the current interpretation of the relevant EULA clauses to be in the best interest of the game and our players.
As for your key remaps, you can use the in-game remaps and key bindings at your leisure. The moment you start using third-party tools to remap keys or "change the way the game is played" in any way, you are in murky territory, because of 6.A.2:
"You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played."


What is your and CCP's definition of "how the game is played"? You didn't expect people to live in wormholes, yet they did. You didn't expect people to min/max their PVP, but they did. Are they in violation of the EULA?


"play" means how you interact with the client. Not how you play using the tools provided by the client.
OK, so voice command tools are banned then, since they change how you interact with the client? What about speciality tools used by people with disabilities?

At the end of the day it's pointless to say "how you interact with the client" as we know full well that CCP cannot tell how the client is interacting as they have zero client side detection. Effectively the rule is "don't be too efficient at multiboxing or you get banned".

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