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Switch projection bonus from Damnation to Absolution

Author
ODSTSNAKEZZ
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#61 - 2015-04-10 21:08:08 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
-1 to OP

Not all ships (or ship types) need the same bonuses as their peers.

In the case of the Absolution... it is already quite beastly and can project damage out quite far using a short range weapon system relative to other turret-based command ships.
It doesn't need to be buffed.
And if you want to shoot out at log range fit a long range turret and accept the fitting issues tradeoff.


Remind me again why I would want to fly a ship that, compared to the Ishtar, has less than half the range, half the DPS, a third of the tracking, doesn't choose damage type, needs to use cap and fittings to fire its guns, and moves at half the speed with over triple the sig radius with MWD on. Oh and it can't track or do **** to anything that gets in under 20km, even cruisers, while the Ishtar's heavy drones have no trouble blapping even close-orbit interceptors in about three seconds.

More laser ships need double optimal bonuses. It would give the drone **** an actual counter, as you're certainly not going to get anywhere shooting kin/therm railguns at Ishtars.


I want to hear more about this Ishtar of yours that gets 1700 dps.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#62 - 2015-04-10 21:15:29 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
That only proves that the Ishtar is broken as hell, not that the absolution needs it's bonus changed. Why would I fly a X inseatd of an Ishtar apply to so many ships it not even funny anymore.
Because you can? Just because a ship is OP does not mean that you have to use it all the time.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2015-04-11 00:59:41 UTC
[Absolution W-Space]

Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste

Experimental 100MN Afterburner I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium 'Gattotte' Capacitor Booster, Navy Cap Booster 400

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Conflagration M
'Ditch' Medium Energy Neutralizer I
'Ditch' Medium Energy Neutralizer I

Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump II

Hornet EC-300 x5

this is our wh experimental fit we are testing atm.
our gang includes 1x absolution, 1x oneiros, 2x guardians, 3x ashimmu, 3x legions, 3x harbingers navy issue. pretty much amarr lazer show doctrine.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

God's Apples
Wildcard.
Boundary Experts
#64 - 2015-04-11 01:19:17 UTC
I too love having AARs and no buffer when I'm flying with 3 logis.

"Hydra Reloaded are just jealous / butthurt on me / us because we can get tons of PVP action in empire while they aren't good enough to get that." - NightmareX

Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#65 - 2015-04-11 01:48:35 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
[Absolution W-Space]


That's embarassing.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#66 - 2015-04-11 01:51:09 UTC
I for one love having the align time of a Titan. Nice fit would fly.

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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2015-04-11 02:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
It's not running permanently. Not too much worry about align time.

Hmm what's wrong with name?

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2015-04-11 09:30:23 UTC
ODSTSNAKEZZ wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
-1 to OP

Not all ships (or ship types) need the same bonuses as their peers.

In the case of the Absolution... it is already quite beastly and can project damage out quite far using a short range weapon system relative to other turret-based command ships.
It doesn't need to be buffed.
And if you want to shoot out at log range fit a long range turret and accept the fitting issues tradeoff.


Remind me again why I would want to fly a ship that, compared to the Ishtar, has less than half the range, half the DPS, a third of the tracking, doesn't choose damage type, needs to use cap and fittings to fire its guns, and moves at half the speed with over triple the sig radius with MWD on. Oh and it can't track or do **** to anything that gets in under 20km, even cruisers, while the Ishtar's heavy drones have no trouble blapping even close-orbit interceptors in about three seconds.

More laser ships need double optimal bonuses. It would give the drone **** an actual counter, as you're certainly not going to get anywhere shooting kin/therm railguns at Ishtars.


I want to hear more about this Ishtar of yours that gets 1700 dps.


Beam Abso doesn't get 850 dps with multifrequency, let alone at sniper range.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#69 - 2015-04-11 09:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
600+ at close range. Does it have to have 850 DPS or that dps at sniper range? Neither Sleipnir nor Claymore, Astarte or the likes have that DPS. Not to mention that 850 is BS and above DPS, no BC needs to have that much DPS, nor does a cruiser. Which brings you probably back to the Ishtar. Roll

Nor is it necessary that all the ship can fill all the roles available to fill. As said before. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#70 - 2015-04-11 10:10:54 UTC
So explain to me again why it shouldnt be able to fill as many roles as the other turret CS.

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Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2015-04-11 10:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
So explain to me again why it shouldnt be able to fill as many roles as the other turret CS.


what are those roles which ones absolution can not full fill?

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#72 - 2015-04-11 11:11:06 UTC
I do not know what you mean. The Absolution beats the Sleipnir as long range platform on the durability and damage applied (ask INIT), it beats the Claymore and Nighthawk in close range combat. It can't be compared to the 2 drone boats because of drones™ unless you want to give it the same drone stats they have. And the Vulture has similar tank but not the same DPS. It is excellent in medium fleet fights but it requires a proper fleet to function well. It is not (necessarily) meant as a solo boat unlike the Sleipnir and that's fine.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#73 - 2015-04-11 11:12:09 UTC
Long range to sniping range combat, Medium range damage application with short range guns (usually something Amarr ships shine in and also part of the Laser balance).
None of the other Command ships need to use long range t2 ammo with all its flaws to project damage past 50k.
While brawling its also troublesome as it has the inherent weaknesses of lasers (compareably low DPS, high fitting requirements). You also need to remember that "brawling" usually doesnt happen with every friendly and enemy ship on one spot in which case the extremely limited range even with Scorch can be a issue aswell, the Absolution doesnt exactly have the speed to relocate quickly to apply DPS again.
The lack of a projection bonus makes no sense from a balancing consistency, but it also makes no sense from a lore perspectivy aswell. All the Carthum Conglomerate ships except the Absolution have range bonuses, with the Pilgrim being its latest addition with the neut range bonus.

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Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#74 - 2015-04-11 11:17:07 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
I do not know what you mean. The Absolution beats the Sleipnir as long range platform on the durability and damage applied (ask INIT), it beats the Claymore and Nighthawk in close range combat. It can't be compared to the 2 drone boats because of drones™ unless you want to give it the same drone stats they have. And the Vulture has similar tank but not the same DPS. It is excellent in medium fleet fights but it requires a proper fleet to function well. It is not (necessarily) meant as a solo boat unlike the Sleipnir and that's fine.


Projectiles are ****, big surprise there. It doesnt beat Sleipnirs by a large margin though as it should be a case, as projecriles have other advantages over lasers (theoretically). Also its direct competition in close range combat are the other turret CS which it gets beaten by.

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Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#75 - 2015-04-11 15:56:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
The topic of the Activation cost as a separate bonus is an interesting one.

Viewing through the lens of fleet and medium gang warfare circa 2004: Lasers (Beams) historically have had higher damage modifiers with marginally longer RoF than their direct competitor - Railguns. Amarr hulls sported RoF bonuses to compensate for the lack of a second effective bonus, which balanced out against damage modifier and application bonuses on Gallente ships.

Before Tech 2 and Scorch, and without weapon damage upgrade mod stacking penalty, it used to be all about Beams... Beams... Tachyon Beams. Big smile

Regarding the Absolution: it is a great injustice to see a HB setup (15+10km w/ MF) do 5% less DPS than a 250mm Astarte, with the latter having 18+23km AM range.

I propose to flip the RoF and Damage bonuses.

Old - Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):

10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

New - Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):

5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire

That way the Abso can become competitive at close to medium ranges with a HB setup. There is no precedent for either RoF/Damage bonus being 5/10 or 10/5, as the Zealot has 5% RoF and 5% Damage mod. Smile

I'll do the effective turret calculation with the updated bonuses.

Edit:

Current Absolution effective turrets: 5 Turrets * 1.5x Damage bonus * (1/(1-0.25)) RoF = 10 Effective turrets.
Astarte: 5 Turrets * 1.375 Damage Bonus * (1/(1-0.375)) RoF = 11 Effective turrets.

New Absolution:

5 Turrets * 1.25x Damage bonus * (1/(1-0.5)) RoF = 12.5 Effective turrets. Twelve and a half effective turrets for a laser ship is far too many, however. vOv

It seems like the best option would be to up the RoF bonus from 5% to 6.5%.

5 turrets * 1.5x Damage bonus * (1/(1-0.325) RoF = Giving it 11.1 Effective turrets, which translates into 4% more DPS with Heavy Beams vs. a 250mm Rail Astarte. Big smile

A Heavy Pulse setup would also have 11% more dps than the current Absolution. Smile

P.S. Sleipnir has 11.25 Effective turrets. Blink

Baali Tekitsu wrote:

The lack of a projection bonus makes no sense from a balancing consistency, but it also makes no sense from a lore perspectivy aswell. All the Carthum Conglomerate ships except the Absolution have range bonuses.


Good point. However, Activation cost is also present on all of these ships AFAIR, and is vital to the viability of the whole concept.

Disregarding the above calculations, if projection bonus is absolutely needed, here is my proposed new Absolution bonuses:

Old:

Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):

10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire


Amarr Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level):

10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost
4% bonus to all armor resistances
_________________________________________________
New:

Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):

10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret Optimal Range
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret Rate of Fire


Amarr Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level):

10% reduction in Medium Energy Turret activation cost
4% bonus to all armor resistances

Bingo-presto - same 10 Effective turrets, same DPS as the current Abso. I'm drawing inspiration from the immortal Armageddon, which is forever fitted with Mega Pulses in my heart. Smile

Scorch range @ 33+6.3km vs 22+6.3km; Heavy Beams MF 22.5+10km vs 15+10km before, and Standard @ 45 vs 30km.

Thoughts? Blink
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#76 - 2015-05-09 19:11:10 UTC
Bump for greate Justice - Astarte has 11 and Sleipnir 11.25 Effective turrets with a projection bonus.

A more concise post on the solution can be read here - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5732910#post5732910
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#77 - 2015-05-09 20:54:18 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Baali Tekitsu wrote:
Or just fit a small cap booster and be done with it. A ship doesnt need to be cap stable with everything running to be useful in combat, however in the current meta, especially the lowsec and nullsec meta, it definatly needs damage projection.



That's the cool thing about the forums. We all have opinionsBig smile

I personally dislike propping up a fit w/ a cap booster. It wastes a candy slot and they take a good deal of grid - limiting other fitting options. I know... I know, so many guys need a cap booster on practically every fit. Me - I don't like them and rarely use them. To each his own.

As to low sec and null sec current metas - I don't really think we should adapt a ships attributes to compliment or conform to current metas. That's kind of a backwards way of looking at things.

I'd rather see the meta move to a brawling short range explosion-fest, but prying the ranged kitey crap out of a null skull is a fatal procedure in most cases. Let's not make absolution beam kiting a thing (a little part of me would die if that came to pass).


The Abso lacks the speed to be a kiter even with being able to hit out to 45 km. But I do agree with the OP that it needs optimal range because most engagements the Abso gets into is not within its brawling range.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#78 - 2015-05-10 04:13:59 UTC
Why not roll the cap bonus in with the RoF bonus. So something like this:

Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):

10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret Optimal Range


Amarr Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level):

5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire and 10% Medium energy Turret activation cost
4% bonus to all armor resistances

I understand that the cap bonus allows you to use higher damage crystals w/o as severe of a penalty.. but if you can only use scorch out to 20km, or conflag out to 8km, its not really worth it. I don't see using less cap and shooting farther as anything overly OP. A few neuts will still make a sad absolution.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#79 - 2015-05-10 04:55:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniela Doran
Serendipity Lost wrote:
So you want a range bonus on the abso and are prepared to defend it to the death. Everyone else (so far) thinks it's fine as is.

If you start taking all the 'wasted' cap usage bonus' away from amarr ships and start giving them damage/range/ROF bonus, we'll eventally remember how OP lasers used to be. A pulse raven was pretty badass at one time. I'd rather not go back to that.

I think you're missing some of what a pulse abso is. You put a small gang of them together and the have decent damage projection. It's not ideal swapping to long range crystals, but they do reach out and touch your targets. The unspoken truth is that if your opponent should choose to come in to zero, then the abso gang swaps to multi/conflag and melts face. It seems like you want it both ways - devastating pulse damage at both short and long range. Or are you looking for a beam abso platform?

You really haven't said what you want in specific terms. That would be helpful. EX: I want a pulse abso that can do X damage out to X range. Fill in the Xs. Or I want a beam abso that.... (barf.... cough.... gack)

I'll stand on my original statement - the abso rocks as is. Feel free to take it inside of 10km, apply web/scram and melt anything you like into space junk. It will work every single time.


Even if the target has a base EM resist of 85%+?? I think not.. And there aren't that many pilots foolish enough to go toe to toe with the Abso below 20 km.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#80 - 2015-05-10 05:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Why not roll the cap bonus in with the RoF bonus. So something like this:

Command Ships bonuses (per skill level):

10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret Optimal Range


Amarr Battlecruiser bonuses (per skill level):

5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret rate of fire and 10% Medium energy Turret activation cost
4% bonus to all armor resistances

I understand that the cap bonus allows you to use higher damage crystals w/o as severe of a penalty.. but if you can only use scorch out to 20km, or conflag out to 8km, its not really worth it. I don't see using less cap and shooting farther as anything overly OP. A few neuts will still make a sad absolution.


Double bonuses are cancer, and no, Activation cost on laser ships is needed for merely firing - with any kind of crystals. The presented setup is redundant, if the same effect can be achieved with what I posted earlier. Smile

Math to the latter part of that long poast,

Current Absolution effective turrets: 5 Turrets * 1.5x Damage bonus * (1/(1-0.25)) RoF = 10 Effective turrets.
New Absolution effective turrets: 5 * (1/(1-0.5)) RoF = 10 Effective turrets.

Higher RoF means higher cap consumption on balance. Check that lore, CCP. Blink