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Gallenteans have started the war and now are lying about it
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Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#101 - 2015-04-08 03:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Claudia Osyn
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Funny story, there's more then 2 sides to every war. The citizens may not approve of it, but the brass obviously didn't feel the same. And I'm sure there are actions taken by your government that were not popular with the people either.


When those actions amount to bombing and invading Gallente Prime, I'll let you know. Recent events committed by my Government's leader that upset me led to me joining with others to kill those who carried out illegal orders and help depose him.

I'm not defending the actions taken by the federation. Bombing Caldari Prime was overkill on a scale that should have never occurred, but retribution for  Nouvelle Rouvenor was bound to take some form. Anger tends to lead to bad choices, good PR campaigns make them sit with your public a bit better, though. If Heath had spent as much time wooing those that kept him in power as the Federation does, he would likely still be there.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#102 - 2015-04-08 05:10:06 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

And I find it very sad you thin Perhaps that's it - one sides losses blind the other side to their own?


Indeed.

We have, at least partially, what we want. In the future, we can bargain with Material Acquisitions to acquire the rest of our homeland.

But the war will continue.

The war was, in my opinion, originally justified. I hate Heth, but I am a Caldari Patriot, and there should be nothing and no one standing between the Caldari people and their homeworld. "Oh, but it has since been settled" you cry. Too bad. We WILL have it back. If we have to buy every house and dormitory, individually, we will have it back.

But I would prefer to buy them. The Caldari, we Caldari, have always preferred business over violence.

Nonetheless, though the State might prefer peace, there will be no peace. Roden is making too much money and power off of it. Imagine! Given what is now the case, we could all go back to previous borders, save for Caldari Prime. No one wants any more war. But there will be war.

Because as long as Roden makes one more ISK selling a Dominix to the Federal Navy, it will be worth it for him.

It won't matter if the Federation takes all of Black Rise and holds it for years - which they won't - the war will not end. At this point, it will only end when the Federation forsakes the politics dictated by money for the powerful, and accepts the politics dictated by what is best for all.

Or, in Caldari terms, the collective good.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#103 - 2015-04-08 06:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Vikarion wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

And I find it very sad you thin Perhaps that's it - one sides losses blind the other side to their own?


Indeed.

We have, at least partially, what we want. In the future, we can bargain with Material Acquisitions to acquire the rest of our homeland.

But the war will continue.

The war was, in my opinion, originally justified. I hate Heth, but I am a Caldari Patriot, and there should be nothing and no one standing between the Caldari people and their homeworld. "Oh, but it has since been settled" you cry. Too bad. We WILL have it back. If we have to buy every house and dormitory, individually, we will have it back.

But I would prefer to buy them. The Caldari, we Caldari, have always preferred business over violence.

Nonetheless, though the State might prefer peace, there will be no peace. Roden is making too much money and power off of it. Imagine! Given what is now the case, we could all go back to previous borders, save for Caldari Prime. No one wants any more war. But there will be war.

Because as long as Roden makes one more ISK selling a Dominix to the Federal Navy, it will be worth it for him.

It won't matter if the Federation takes all of Black Rise and holds it for years - which they won't - the war will not end. At this point, it will only end when the Federation forsakes the politics dictated by money for the powerful, and accepts the politics dictated by what is best for all.

Or, in Caldari terms, the collective good.


Roden Shipyards aren't the only suppliers of high quality warships. There's also Duvolle and CreoDron. In fact, considering the popularity of Gallente droneboats such as the Ishtar, CreoDron probably benefits more from this war than Roden ever could.

And besides, he still has a substantial client base in the form of Capsuleers, who will consume Gallente warships in scales no baseliner admiral could ever conceive. Just by licensing blueprints to Capsuleer contractors, he turns a vast profit. The monetary side of things is already more or less secured. There shouldn't be any good reason for him to risk unpopularity (which I reckon is a very big deal in the Fed political arena) for more short-term profits.

As such, I believe that there is more than mere profiteering at play here.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#104 - 2015-04-08 15:29:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Antolliere
And we have come full-circle back to attempting to place full blame at the feet of the Gallente for the continuation of the war.

The audacity of asserting that the State desires peace but the Federation will continue to drone the war on for profit...

The State has not been the entity pursuing peace. Have we already forgotten that prior to Operation Highlander multiple attempts at peace conferences, diplomacy and non-violent resolution were made by the Federation? All of which were soundly rejected by the State's cries of "we expect these concessions and nothing less," regardless of any consideration toward how those demands would affect the Federation, the State or any of the citizens therein.

Throughout recent history, nearly every attempt at peace has been instigated by the Federation, not the State. There are entities in both governments that stand to profit by continuing the war and there are entities in both governments that would seek to bring an end to the war by peaceful means.

That you would even consider asserting otherwise is an affront to the integrity of this discussion and a rather bold testimony to the quality of your own character, or lack thereof.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Vikarion
Doomheim
#105 - 2015-04-08 16:27:47 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:

Throughout recent history, nearly every attempt at peace has been instigated by the Federation, not the State.


This is simply not true. Now, I won't argue that Heth was not interested much in peace, but members of the megacorporations such as Ishukone did seek to dial down the hostility of the conflict as much as they could. Moreover, it was the Caldari, not the Federation, who removed Heth, and were expressing their opinion on him long before Operation Highlander.

In addition, if one reads the historical account, the Federation was not interested in negotiating with the Caldari in the first war under any terms but complete...well, one might call it Reclamation, might one not? - into the Federation. This is a bit like trying to rob someone, and then claim that you were attempting to negotiate when he resists. Demanding surrender isn't negotiating peace save by the widest of margins. Here is an SCC source: The War Drones On. Whereas, the Caldari position was more reasonable: the return of Caldari Prime and the recognition of the State as a sovereign entity.

It wasn't until a Federation fleet was nearly destroyed at Iyen-Oursta in the retaking of that Gallente system that the Federation, at the behest of CONCORD finally agreed to drop their demands for the subjugation of the Caldari, and the Caldari agreed to stop seeking the liberation of Caldari Prime by military means.

How this is a return to blame, I don't know. The above is largely a retyping of the SCC sources you can go look at yourself. If one is coming from a rather Ultra-Nationalist position, which you seem to be somewhat close to in your last post, I suppose one could argue that any Caldari stating anything negative about the Federation is a provocation.

The point in my last post was not that the Gallente as a whole want war, it's that the Gallente military-industrial complex has realized that they can get rich at the expense of the rest of the nation.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#106 - 2015-04-08 16:44:22 UTC
Msr. Vikarion seems a master of rumor and speculation. You clam our President is a war monger. Fine, prove it.

In one thing he is correct. There won't be peace.

Not at least until he and others like him, myself included, understand that we are all to blame.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#107 - 2015-04-08 18:09:55 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
I'm not defending the actions taken by the federation. Bombing Caldari Prime was overkill on a scale that should have never occurred, but retribution for  Nouvelle Rouvenor was bound to take some form. Anger tends to lead to bad choices, good PR campaigns make them sit with your public a bit better, though. If Heath had spent as much time wooing those that kept him in power as the Federation does, he would likely still be there.


Then we do not disagree about anything. Personally I'm glad that we got to see Heth for who he really was before the cancer spread so far it couldn't be cut out - not that this reduces my sorrow by a single drop of the blood doing so caused to be spilt.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#108 - 2015-04-08 18:13:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Roden Shipyards aren't the only suppliers of high quality warships. There's also Duvolle and CreoDron. In fact, considering the popularity of Gallente droneboats such as the Ishtar, CreoDron probably benefits more from this war than Roden ever could.

And besides, he still has a substantial client base in the form of Capsuleers, who will consume Gallente warships in scales no baseliner admiral could ever conceive. Just by licensing blueprints to Capsuleer contractors, he turns a vast profit. The monetary side of things is already more or less secured. There shouldn't be any good reason for him to risk unpopularity (which I reckon is a very big deal in the Fed political arena) for more short-term profits.

As such, I believe that there is more than mere profiteering at play here.


You really think we fly more Dominixes than the Federal Navy? I find that difficult to believe!

Still, I'm not sure profiteering is the true story. Since we touched on the subject of old Caldari proverbs we should remember the old pair of proverbs "War is good for business" and "Peace is good for business". I suspect Roden would be making money hand over fist regardless of the war in Black Rise.

The war is, however, the vehicle he has ridden to power in both of the elections he's won. I'd look there for his motivation.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Thea Isotalo
Doomheim
#109 - 2015-04-08 18:13:26 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:

The State has not been the entity pursuing peace. Have we already forgotten that prior to Operation Highlander multiple attempts at peace conferences, diplomacy and non-violent resolution were made by the Federation?



And while your smiling diplomats were dickering at the bargaining table for this "peace" your ships and troops were sweeping across Black Rise. Those that you didn't kill, you forced into labor. And when the State came to kick your sorry butts out of our home, you tried to kill, **** or burn anything you couldn't carry off with you.

Since I was on one of those colonies at the time, you'll forgive me if I have some pretty severe ******* doubts about what the word "peace" mean in Gallente.

BRCE: Mission Statement!
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#110 - 2015-04-08 21:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Antolliere
Thea Isotalo wrote:
Liam Antolliere wrote:

The State has not been the entity pursuing peace. Have we already forgotten that prior to Operation Highlander multiple attempts at peace conferences, diplomacy and non-violent resolution were made by the Federation?



And while your smiling diplomats were dickering at the bargaining table for this "peace" your ships and troops were sweeping across Black Rise. Those that you didn't kill, you forced into labor. And when the State came to kick your sorry butts out of our home, you tried to kill, **** or burn anything you couldn't carry off with you.

Since I was on one of those colonies at the time, you'll forgive me if I have some pretty severe ******* doubts about what the word "peace" mean in Gallente.



Please validate your claims of forced labor.

Second, it wasn't the Federation that invaded the State and parked a Titan within its borders literally holding a planet and its citizens hostage.

Third, it wasn't the Federation that ordered a titan to fire on Caldari Prime.

And no, I won't forgive you for blathering on about what the word "peace" means in Gallente when all you've done is spout hostile, opinionated statements with no backing to your assertions. I don't give a damn where you were at what time, what I care about is what happened and what happened does not match what you claim happened.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#111 - 2015-04-09 01:09:19 UTC
I have seen the forced labour camps filled with State Protectorate POWs, Liam. And we've all heard stories about the combat drugged troopers and what happens if something goes south on a patrol.

I'm not suggesting it's policy, mind you, but it does happen.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2015-04-09 01:23:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Roden Shipyards aren't the only suppliers of high quality warships. There's also Duvolle and CreoDron. In fact, considering the popularity of Gallente droneboats such as the Ishtar, CreoDron probably benefits more from this war than Roden ever could.

And besides, he still has a substantial client base in the form of Capsuleers, who will consume Gallente warships in scales no baseliner admiral could ever conceive. Just by licensing blueprints to Capsuleer contractors, he turns a vast profit. The monetary side of things is already more or less secured. There shouldn't be any good reason for him to risk unpopularity (which I reckon is a very big deal in the Fed political arena) for more short-term profits.

As such, I believe that there is more than mere profiteering at play here.


You really think we fly more Dominixes than the Federal Navy? I find that difficult to believe!

Still, I'm not sure profiteering is the true story. Since we touched on the subject of old Caldari proverbs we should remember the old pair of proverbs "War is good for business" and "Peace is good for business". I suspect Roden would be making money hand over fist regardless of the war in Black Rise.

The war is, however, the vehicle he has ridden to power in both of the elections he's won. I'd look there for his motivation.


We fly more Dominixes because we keep losing the damned things. Who do you think are the ones who keep flying recklessly into the thick of it shooting everything in sight, no matter what?

Definitely not baseliners.

There is a reason why generally the Empires leave most of the fighting to the capsuleers, or why we even exist at all. Plenty of us will just go, shoot one another, lose ship and capsule, come back and do it all over again, having learned nothing other than how not to lose ships that easily again. The fact that we even have crew do not quite register to many of us. The baseliner side is far less reckless and far less likely to go take suicidal risks.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#113 - 2015-04-09 04:10:15 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I have seen the forced labour camps filled with State Protectorate POWs, Liam. And we've all heard stories about the combat drugged troopers and what happens if something goes south on a patrol.

I'm not suggesting it's policy, mind you, but it does happen.


This I understand and it brings bile to my mouth but to suggest that it is somehow the standard operating procedure of the Federation on whole, or that we brazenly charged through Black Rise while pretending at peace is farcical.

My response was not as tempered as usual, I am finding myself more taxed than usual on patience today.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2015-04-09 14:27:48 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:

There is a reason why generally the Empires leave most of the fighting to the capsuleers, or why we even exist at all. Plenty of us will just go, shoot one another, lose ship and capsule, come back and do it all over again, having learned nothing other than how not to lose ships that easily again. The fact that we even have crew do not quite register to many of us. The baseliner side is far less reckless and far less likely to go take suicidal risks.

Ships will keep dying regardless who fly them, capsule pilot or a captain from a bridge. Haven't millennia of wars teach you that? It doesn't matter how reckless or cautious you are, when you start a war, people die.

And yet you continue doing the same, attack us to "help your slaves" or attacking Caldari because they don't bow to you. Stop your agression, Federals and Republicans! You aren't fighting megacorporations or the Empress, you are fighting against regular peoples, same as you, who defend their land against you.

It's time to stop it. Turn yourself to Faith and repel.

((

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Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#115 - 2015-04-09 14:33:29 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:


It's time to stop it. Turn yourself to Faith and repel.


Yes, turn to a faith that started many a war..
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2015-04-09 14:55:40 UTC
Deitra Vess wrote:
Luna Hanaya wrote:


It's time to stop it. Turn yourself to Faith and repel.


Yes, turn to a faith that started many a war..

That was deeds of humans, not the Lord. You should blame them, not our Faith. I don't want anyone to die anymore, I want everyone to live together in peace and to be happy.

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

Intergalactic Summit - IC router

Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

))
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#117 - 2015-04-09 15:01:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Deitra Vess
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Luna Hanaya wrote:


It's time to stop it. Turn yourself to Faith and repel.


Yes, turn to a faith that started many a war..

That was deeds of humans, not the Lord. You should blame them, not our Faith. I don't want anyone to die anymore, I want everyone to live together in peace and to be happy.


A people who follow some god that demands servitude. Another people who wanted nothing to do with it. Fences make good neighbors they say, so why did your ancestors cross that fence? The reclaiming is "god's will" right? that's what I thought...
Markus Error
Manfios
#118 - 2015-04-09 15:25:50 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Luna Hanaya wrote:


It's time to stop it. Turn yourself to Faith and repel.


Yes, turn to a faith that started many a war..

That was deeds of humans, not the Lord. You should blame them, not our Faith. I don't want anyone to die anymore, I want everyone to live together in peace and to be happy.

Turn to a faith that demands suffering, slavery, and forced conquest? Good gods above, are you serious?

Not bloody likely. My soul can go to the depths of your Hell for all I care; I'll be having no part of your faith, Amarrian.

"If it cannot be shot the #### down, it can always be blown the #### up."

-Unknown
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#119 - 2015-04-09 17:25:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Deitra Vess
It was their faith that spurred on their actions. The people, such as yourself, who don't want death and destruction unfortunately can deal with their peer's follies. So why exactly would blame be cast on them? It was their faith that led your ancestors away from this peace you strive for, without it nothing would have happened more than likely.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#120 - 2015-04-09 18:37:02 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Deitra Vess wrote:
Luna Hanaya wrote:


It's time to stop it. Turn yourself to Faith and repel.


Yes, turn to a faith that started many a war..

That was deeds of humans, not the Lord. You should blame them, not our Faith. I don't want anyone to die anymore, I want everyone to live together in peace and to be happy.

Then keep your faith on your side of the border.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.