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So, what do you guys think about watch lists?

First post First post First post
Author
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
#121 - 2015-04-04 20:49:30 UTC
Should also keep in mind what changed since we have new the notification system with the audible bell.
At current state it's pretty easy to track targets down.
I suspect that the fairly increased death of supers has alot to do with this.

And then listen to the latest wormhole podcast about log offs What?
Krops Vont
#122 - 2015-04-04 21:10:38 UTC
Andrew Jester wrote:
keep it and it's cool?

get rid of it and it's cooler for supers?


Remove it and the gazelle running around in w-space will feel either very safe or never leave the pos Pirate

--==Services==--

Propaganda/Art/Media

Wormhole Finding & Selling

o/ Play for fun

Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2015-04-04 21:47:15 UTC
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
So a tool that shows you when someone is online is the same as a tool that shows you in which wormhole someone is located?


Speaking of w-space, a lot of times it's in fact the same tool. Because one main use for non-mutually agreed watchlists is watching players that camp your wormhole or watching corp that you camp. In these situations being online is hugely correlated with being in a specific system. And that both sides can mutually watchlist each other is even worse – at that point we have a substitute for local. There is no balance in this mechanics, as the game give you no sound option to deny that intel.
Neckbeard Nolyfe
Zero Fun Allowed
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#124 - 2015-04-04 22:57:28 UTC
Delegate wrote:
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
So a tool that shows you when someone is online is the same as a tool that shows you in which wormhole someone is located?


Speaking of w-space, a lot of times it's in fact the same tool. Because one main use for non-mutually agreed watchlists is watching players that camp your wormhole or watching corp that you camp. In these situations being online is hugely correlated with being in a specific system. And that both sides can mutually watchlist each other is even worse – at that point we have a substitute for local. There is no balance in this mechanics, as the game give you no sound option to deny that intel.


Or you can use the watchlist as a tool to bait?
You know giving your target a false sense of safety?
Or use it as a scare tactic?

There are so many ways to work around watchlists, and the fact that I have to type this so some people understand is just sad and shows how simple eve has become.
From older players adapting and using game mechanics which are at their disposal, to new and inexperienced players wanting changes to make an easy game even easier.

~lvl 60 paladin~

umnikar
Fishbone Industries
#125 - 2015-04-04 23:34:30 UTC
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:

From older players adapting and using game mechanics which are at their disposal, to new and inexperienced players wanting changes to make an easy game even easier.


You can't call it a game mechanic at all and it does not reflect how well adapted(good) you are.
Its a workaround newbies not knowing about and more important dont care about, because they are busy learning the real game mechanics and trying to play it actually - which is often prevented by similar "tricks".
Sleepaz Den
Artificial Memories
#126 - 2015-04-04 23:43:50 UTC
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:


There are so many ways to work around watchlists, and the fact that I have to type this so some people understand is just sad and shows how simple eve has become.



Go on, tell us your work around. I'm very interested in you being both online without that little green lamp shining.

Your examples there were a fart in the wind, come on allmighty sensei, show us what you actually got.
Sleepaz Den
Artificial Memories
#127 - 2015-04-04 23:47:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Sleepaz Den
cool.
Delegate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2015-04-05 00:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Delegate
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
There are so many ways to work around watchlists, and the fact that I have to type this so some people understand is just sad and shows how simple eve has become.


There is no way to deny watchlists except for afk camping.

Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
From older players adapting and using game mechanics which are at their disposal, to new and inexperienced players wanting changes to make an easy game even easier.


Most of what I saw in this thread goes along these lines:
- we need watchlists, because how would we know if they cloaked or logged off,
- we need watchlists, because observing pos is tiresome,
- we watchlisted a whole corp once we hauled some stuff,
- there was a cloaked legion around but I had that pilot on a watchlist.

Now tell me, who's looking for an easy game? I need d-scan, overview and patience. You need watchlist.
Andrew Jester
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#129 - 2015-04-05 03:19:16 UTC
Sleepaz Den wrote:
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:


There are so many ways to work around watchlists, and the fact that I have to type this so some people understand is just sad and shows how simple eve has become.



Go on, tell us your work around. All there is are big words and a lot of nothing.


pls no desperate

If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy

SwagYolo420
Perkone
Caldari State
#130 - 2015-04-05 06:10:38 UTC
Andrew Jester
ElitistOps
Pandemic Legion
Likes received: 1,111

checked
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#131 - 2015-04-07 02:17:11 UTC
Kynric wrote:
If it could be changed to require the consent of the watched it would retain its function for letting friends keep up with you while disabling its use as an intel tool.


this.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2015-04-07 07:33:37 UTC
Trinkets friend wrote:
Sure, it's prone to abuse. Blood Union would invest billions of ISK in dreads, dread alts, etc, and seed hem into C5's inhabited by bears and pull logon traps partly informed by watchlists. But, and I'll educate you about what really happened because you weren't even playing the game when it happened, BU quit wormholes mostly when CCP removed API kill logging support and jump logging from wormhole systems, thereby invalidating BU's intel tool known as Siggy.

BU didn't even need to WL their victims to pull logon traps. a WL pinging with sign-ons is handy but it wouldn't have stopped them without the removal of NPC kill logging and jump logging which just showed a nice red or yellow flag on the holes in Siggy.

Uhm, ever heard of QEX? They re-learned how to do it even without the API feed.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#133 - 2015-04-07 11:14:25 UTC  |  Edited by: YuuKnow
Chance Ravinne wrote:
I love watch lists as much as the next guy, but sometimes it feels overpowered as an intelligence source. Especially in w space where the lack of local adds to the mystery and shroud, but watch lists kind of undermine that. Any thoughts?


I think its too powerful a meta and Eve would be more challenging and spontaneous (ie interesting) if if it didn't exist.

I can think of two ways to upgrade it:

Possible Upgrade #1: Make it a mutual decision that both players agree on.

- player adds a contact to their contact list and sends the standard 'you have been added to my contact list' notice
- receiving player receives the notice and clicks a box "allow online notification"

that way only if the two players are friends will the 'player online' notification be available. Non-consenting players can't be watchlisted.

Possible Upgrade #2: watchlisting players happens automatically when each has set the other individual player to blue.

- a player gets a notice when any of his 'blue' bros comes on that also have him blue
- doesn't apply to automatic blues such as corps/alliance blues as it would cause too many contacts

I think the first upgrade is better.

yk
Zechariah Bragg
Jaded.
#134 - 2015-04-07 19:38:47 UTC
I've always found watch list to be kinda creepy. In the non-intel gathering sorta way.

If you don't live in W-Space.....your opinions are invalid.

Montgomery Black
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2015-04-08 00:47:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Montgomery Black
Obil Que wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Getting rid of the watch list allows the risk averse players to be more risk aversetical. Getting rid of it is bad. It removes a mechanism that enhances the ability to blow up another dudes space stuff.


What is more risk averse then gathering intel on people without being outside their POS shield?

Serendipity Lost wrote:
I use the watch list to blow folks up. Folks that don't like fighting on my terms want to take my tools away. I'm ok w/ folks using the watch list the same way I do to exploit me and blow me up. That's part of the game. The drive to remove watch list functionality boils down directly to risk aversion.

This whole attempt to get rid of the watch list is an attempt to make eve more risk averse. It's that simple. Any advantages w/ gimping or removing the current watch list stem soley from the desire of risk averse folks to be free of those who hunt them.


I want people who gather intel to have to endure risk to do it. Be in space. Be at my POS. Don't gather intel on me from across New Eden with zero risk to yourself to know my patterns and activities. I see nothing but risk averse people wanting to have their perfect intel on my activities handed to them on a silver platter. I want those people to have to be in space directly and actively gathering intel at risk to themselves for doing it.

Yes, I want to take your tool away. Your zero effort, zero risk tool to hunt with.



Spoken like someone who has no idea the time it actually takes to hunt a target in wormhole space.

In WHs there is no local and people are often in cloaked ships. Watchlists prevent hunters from spending hours watching a empty wormhole. They tell you if your target is online so you have a possibility of continuing the hunt. or if he is offline so you dont spend hours of wasted time while your target is logged off doing stuff in that horrible sunshine.

watchlists enable pew in wh space and prevent hours of boredom. They don't hand you targets on a platter.

WH Merc Services in AU TZ. Citadel defense / offense. More details see forum post - Link

vccv
#136 - 2015-04-08 05:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: vccv
I think it should cost a certain amount per day or maybe month to place someone on a watch list. You'd really have to need it if it costs you enough. Protects those who wish they weren't on one by a little and doesn't change much other than slowing down the flow of free Intel a bit. Intel shouldn't be so easy to acquire in my opinion. Not that most folks would have a huge problem paying it.


I'm not saying that we need no free Intel by any means. I do believe limiting the feature by which you can mark an entire corp for no cost would be fine with me.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#137 - 2015-04-08 07:41:57 UTC
Man, I get so sick of people standing up on pedestals and beating drums of ideological purity. You are like the special interest groups here in the U.S. who are always pointing at the racism of this policy or the sexism of that one or how this one idea is socialist(!!!)--all the while ignoring the other aspects of a situation that are the conceptually the same but benefit you.

Abusing these appeals to conceptual authority is damaging to the very ideas you claim to be espousing. "No Free Intel!" sounds kind of great as a game design principle. But if what it actually means is no free intel except for the free intel that you find beneficial, then it's a crap design principle.

If you're going to keep beating on that drum, you need to actually mean it. Otherwise the hypocrisy is painfully obvious, and you just look stupid. But you shouldn't mean it because it's ridiculous. We will never eliminate all sources of free intel in this game, and you would riot if anyone seriously tried to.

Get off your soap-boxes and address the actual issue at hand. Try to make a real argument that amounts to something other than, "Whaaaaaaaa! The bad man made my ship go away, and then I poopied in my panties a little. Waaaaaaa!"

You can dress that up however you want. But pretending that No Free Intel means anything other than that when you say it is just silly.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#138 - 2015-04-08 14:22:03 UTC
You should not be able to see whether pilots are online or not unless they give you consent.

Just my 2 cents.

Not today spaghetti.

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#139 - 2015-04-08 17:37:46 UTC
If this question is being asked in the context of a general examination of in-game intel (Local, D-scan, probe scanning, locator agents, etc.) then +1 to requiring the consent of the watched.

If there's a need, you can deal with edge cases as they come up, e.g.: making the emergency warp on disconnect easily distinguishable from a standard warp.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Ocid
Knights of the Unknown
#140 - 2015-04-08 18:33:36 UTC
While we're at it remove killboards as well. **** why not just remove the API so we can't gather any info. /sarcasm

Watch lists are fine. People can add me and I don't know they're watching me. I can add people and they don't know I'm watching them.