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Is assault frigates a bit underpowered?

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2015-04-08 07:26:07 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
They were fine until you know what.

Delete D3s.



This. They're the ishtars of small ships.
William Rokov
Better go yolo
Yolo Brothers
#42 - 2015-04-08 07:33:50 UTC
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
They were fine until you know what.

Delete D3s.

They were fine only in Faction Wars at small plexes because of artificial restriction for ships. It is not good way for making niche for ship. Everywhere else they are pretty useless in solo/small fleet.

No links, no scouts. True solo pvp pilot.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#43 - 2015-04-08 09:08:18 UTC  |  Edited by: McChicken Combo HalfMayo
William Rokov wrote:
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:
They were fine until you know what.

Delete D3s.

They were fine only in Faction Wars at small plexes because of artificial restriction for ships. It is not good way for making niche for ship. Everywhere else they are pretty useless in solo/small fleet.

Excellent in small PLEX. Harpy snipe fleets in sov. Splendid against ratting battleships too - all the sig rad benefits of a frig with more DPS and tank.

It's the speed that makes them bad in regular solo and small gang. They are niche but in a few solid roles.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2015-04-08 09:17:05 UTC
They're actually fine even in small gang, you just need to bring a hyena/cruor or two with you. All the benefits of frigs in the strategic level speed/mobilitiy meta (i.e. align, warp speed) and on field mobility can be brought by available tools already.
William Rokov
Better go yolo
Yolo Brothers
#45 - 2015-04-08 09:51:25 UTC  |  Edited by: William Rokov
McChicken Combo HalfMayo wrote:

Excellent in small PLEX. Harpy snipe fleets in sov. Splendid against ratting battleships too - all the sig rad benefits of a frig with more DPS and tank.

It's the speed that makes them bad in regular solo and small gang. They are niche but in a few solid roles.

Yep, they got niche, but this niche is artificial, not natural. For example, interceptors got special niche without any artificial restrictions, its going from their bonuses and stats. HACs, eas, recons, dictors, etc. - any other class got his own niche just because of ship stats and bonuses. Only assault frigates got niche from special "small plex" in special "faction war", where special restrictions making assault frigates highest class there. And after coming t3d, assaults frigates got no niche, even that artificial niche, because t3d is new top ship class for that small plexes. This tier 3 destroyers shown us that assult frigates are a bit underpower in eve meta. Its not about t3d, its about assault frigs stats and bonuses.

No links, no scouts. True solo pvp pilot.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2015-04-08 10:14:03 UTC
William Rokov wrote:
afkalt wrote:
And with a 50% sig drop, I'd never fly anything else on a roam again, ever.

Have you SEEN a dual MSAB hawk?

U can check my killboard for it. Ofcourse i have seen a lot of dual masb hawks. But in any gang, where u are not limited by artificial barriers (like "only t2 frigs awailable") assault frigates dont have any good place for them. t2 and t3 destroyers are better in dps, tank and speed in same time. t1 cruisers better in tank, dps, fitting and damage projection while they got lower price, than assault frigs. Interceptors are a lot better in tackling. Even t1 frigs for interceptors-killing are better than assault frigs. Thats what im talking about, assault frigs dont have any advantage in any role, compare to other ships in that role. And they have not their own "special" role (like t2 destroyers or fleet interceptors).
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Assault frigate main problem, with few exceptiosn like the harpy, is because they are EXTREMELY short range ADN MWD bonused at same time and lack enough mids for dual prop. Result is they need to get close... gett SCRAMMED, their MWD turns OFFF and they DIE.

Give Assault frigates IMMUNITY to MWD shutdown under scram, and voilá... EXTRA FLAVOR.. and a nice boost for the ship.

Svipuls already shown us how imbalanced immune to scram is.



Nope they have not. If you think MWD immune to scram is even HALF as powerful as an Oversized AB (That has 1/6th of the signature radius and have massively increased mass tha makes them deaccelerate much slower when webbed) then you need to recheck your concepts.

Immune to MWD scram is just as pwoerful as MWD used to be in the past... and MWD already were WAY inferior to oversized AB on damage mitigation.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2015-04-08 10:15:44 UTC
rsantos wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
have you seen harpy fleets recently?


Harpies are in a special place because they have damage projection 10 times larger than most of the other assault frigates. That makes their role completely different.


And why is that "Balanced"! Uhh!?



I did not said it is. I just said that you cannot apply the same generic AF argument to the harpy. Just because the harpy is good doe snto mean that AF in general are OK.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#48 - 2015-04-08 10:17:32 UTC
Pierre Fonulique wrote:
This makes a lot of sense, but I'd personally attack it in a slightly different way. I see Assault Frigates as tackle in the same way that Interceptors are, but I feel they should do it differently. Inty's should be the premier fast tackle, with the ability to catch fast targets and get out when things get hairy, but AF's should be the heavy tackle that can stick to a target with an entire fleet trying to bring them down.

In order to accommodate this, where Inty's get a bonus to MWD's for the raw speed, AF's should get a bonus to afterburners. If AF's with afterburners went the speed of MWD cruisers then they'd be able to control range against larger ships while ceding tactical control against frigates, leaving them with a tactical niche that would make them useful in combined fleets.



CCP tried that once in the test server, but people whined and they changed the 50% aB bonus to the now useles MWD bloom reduction (useless becase AF cannot , for most of them fight outside scram range)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
William Rokov
Better go yolo
Yolo Brothers
#49 - 2015-04-08 10:26:56 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

CCP tried that once in the test server, but people whined and they changed the 50% aB bonus to the now useles MWD bloom reduction (useless becase AF cannot , for most of them fight outside scram range)

Most of them can fight outside scram range and in dis range, but low speed on mwd making it pretty bad idea - anyone can run away when he wants, anyone can catch them, when he wants.

No links, no scouts. True solo pvp pilot.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#50 - 2015-04-08 10:30:15 UTC
Except T3D's should eat AF's for breakfast.
Destroyers are meant to kill Frigates.
We just have never had a combat T2 Destroyer before, so everyone is screaming over the T3D's actually being combat destroyers.

So claiming that T3D's are killing them isn't a good argument for them being weak, since that is what should happen in balance.
William Rokov
Better go yolo
Yolo Brothers
#51 - 2015-04-08 10:37:02 UTC  |  Edited by: William Rokov
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Except T3D's should eat AF's for breakfast.
Destroyers are meant to kill Frigates.
We just have never had a combat T2 Destroyer before, so everyone is screaming over the T3D's actually being combat destroyers.

So claiming that T3D's are killing them isn't a good argument for them being weak, since that is what should happen in balance.

Thats true, but theme is not about it. U can check first post. Check difference in speed between t1 frig and t1 destroyers (frig killers) and than check same difference for t2 assaults and t3 destroyers. Im sure, u will notice my point.

There are 2 huge problems in balance - t3d are overpowered, t2 assault frigs is underpowered, but nerfing t3d will not help assault frigates. This theme is only about assault frigates.

No links, no scouts. True solo pvp pilot.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#52 - 2015-04-08 10:44:50 UTC
William Rokov wrote:

Thats true, but theme is not about it. U can check first post. Check difference in speed between t1 frig and t1 destroyers (frig killers) and than check same difference for t2 assaults and t3 destroyers. Im sure, u will notice my point.

There are 2 huge problems in balance - t3d are overpowered, t2 assault frigs is underpowered, but nerfing t3d will not help assault frigates. This theme is only about assault frigates.

But again, AF's aren't meant to be the fast frigates. That's interceptors. AF's are the tanky 'slow' frigate option.
You are picking points in isolation while not considering the general design aspects here.

AF's may be weak admittedly, but not in the ways you are trying to argue, because those are characteristics of the class.
William Rokov
Better go yolo
Yolo Brothers
#53 - 2015-04-08 10:53:02 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

But again, AF's aren't meant to be the fast frigates. That's interceptors. AF's are the tanky 'slow' frigate option.
You are picking points in isolation while not considering the general design aspects here.

AF's may be weak admittedly, but not in the ways you are trying to argue, because those are characteristics of the class.

Yeah, but they are still frigates, so they should be slowest frigate class. Now they are have almost same speed, as hacs or t1 cruisers, which makes them pretty useless. I suggested made them slowest frigate class, but still faster, than any cruiser or destroyer and slower than any another frigate type.

No links, no scouts. True solo pvp pilot.
Arla Sarain
#54 - 2015-04-08 11:08:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

So claiming that T3D's are killing them isn't a good argument .

T3Ds are OP because along with having more tank, damage and range, they are also faster. They don't just kill firgates - they invalidate pretty much every frigate thats not a pirate frigate or an EAF . AFs are marginally cheaper and offer nothing in return. They're not even that much easier to skill into.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#55 - 2015-04-08 11:08:17 UTC
Except it doesn't make them useless. It makes them weak against Cruisers & Destroyers. But cruisers & destroyers are not their intended prey. They eat BC's & BS's alive. They should not be strong against everything.
Arla Sarain
#56 - 2015-04-08 11:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Arla Sarain
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Except it doesn't make them useless. It makes them weak against Cruisers & Destroyers. But cruisers & destroyers are not their intended prey. They eat BC's & BS's alive. They should not be strong against everything.

And what kills T3Ds? BCs and BSs? Cruisers? They don't.

T3Ds are frigates and cruisers mashed in together.

Rock Paper Scissors is a bad strategy when there are many better rocks, papers and scissors. There are no BSs and BCs because of Bombers. Not because of AFs.

There are so many things wrong with going on about how destroyers are meant to be beating frigates; sure that was the design decision some time ago, but its not a particularly good one, when the majority of recent target are either frigates or destroyers. The fact that the game is reduced to flying progressively better things speaks for this. There is no space for the majority of T1, T2 frigates, BSs and BCs. There is either gangs of HACs or just solo T3Ds and pirate ships. So far frigates exist for purpose only - to be destroyed by T3Ds. If you think thats fine, I can assure you the game will be reduced even further into the bleak scope of everyone flying 1-2 ships. No one is going to be content with flying a gimmick for long. FW area already shows signs of people yielding to this bollocks - its either T3Ds or dock up.
bunzing heet
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-04-08 11:37:39 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Except it doesn't make them useless. It makes them weak against Cruisers & Destroyers. But cruisers & destroyers are not their intended prey. They eat BC's & BS's alive. They should not be strong against everything.

And what kills T3Ds? BCs and BSs? Cruisers? They don't.

T3Ds are frigates and cruisers mashed in together.

Rock Paper Scissors is a bad strategy when there are many better rocks, papers and scissors. There are no BSs and BCs because of Bombers. Not because of AFs.

There are so many things wrong with going on about how destroyers are meant to be beating frigates; sure that was the design decision some time ago, but its not a particularly good one, when the majority of recent target are either frigates or destroyers. The fact that the game is reduced to flying progressively better things speaks for this. There is no space for the majority of T1, T2 frigates, BSs and BCs. There is either gangs of HACs or just solo T3Ds and pirate ships. So far frigates exist for purpose only - to be destroyed by T3Ds. If you think thats fine, I can assure you the game will be reduced even further into the bleak scope of everyone flying 1-2 ships. No one is going to be content with flying a gimmick for long. FW area already shows signs of people yielding to this bollocks - its either T3Ds or dock up.



Not true everything has a counter just 1med neut and a t3d will die
Even in the real world destroyers are made to kill frigates with ease
Just because they finally made a destroyer that can actually do that doesn't make them op
If you don't agree try killing a prophecy with a svipul if the prophecy is correctly fitted you are going to die

Fly safe keep killing And remember I'm watching you !!!!
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#58 - 2015-04-08 12:39:55 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Except it doesn't make them useless. It makes them weak against Cruisers & Destroyers. But cruisers & destroyers are not their intended prey. They eat BC's & BS's alive. They should not be strong against everything.

And what kills T3Ds? BCs and BSs? Cruisers? They don't.

T3Ds are frigates and cruisers mashed in together.

Rock Paper Scissors is a bad strategy when there are many better rocks, papers and scissors. There are no BSs and BCs because of Bombers. Not because of AFs.

There are so many things wrong with going on about how destroyers are meant to be beating frigates; sure that was the design decision some time ago, but its not a particularly good one, when the majority of recent target are either frigates or destroyers. The fact that the game is reduced to flying progressively better things speaks for this. There is no space for the majority of T1, T2 frigates, BSs and BCs. There is either gangs of HACs or just solo T3Ds and pirate ships. So far frigates exist for purpose only - to be destroyed by T3Ds. If you think thats fine, I can assure you the game will be reduced even further into the bleak scope of everyone flying 1-2 ships. No one is going to be content with flying a gimmick for long. FW area already shows signs of people yielding to this bollocks - its either T3Ds or dock up.


BC/BS can kill t3d pretty easily if you fit for utility, rather than max tank. Ive killed confessors/svipuls with drakes, canes, gnosis and typhoons. Most fit with 10mn ab. A single medium neut tends ro ruin them.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
William Rokov
Better go yolo
Yolo Brothers
#59 - 2015-04-08 13:17:22 UTC
Arla Sarain wrote:

And what kills T3Ds? BCs and BSs? Cruisers? They don't.

To be honest, even t1 cruisers is enough for killing t3d: 1, 2, 3, 4
But it is a bit offtop, we are talking about assault frigates.
Imagine there are no t3d in eve and remove small plexes from FW. Where will be niche in pvp for assault frigs in such situation?

No links, no scouts. True solo pvp pilot.
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#60 - 2015-04-08 13:47:28 UTC
I'd quite like to see AF's get a slight speed boost
I'd also like to see each race able to field one AF that is designed to work outside of scram range.....

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.