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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Gallenteans have started the war and now are lying about it

Author
Xadiran
Moira.
#81 - 2015-04-06 03:20:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Xadiran
Diana Kim wrote:
Don't play me a fool, gallentean..


I hardly need to. You make a fool of yourself enough for t̶h̶e̶ ̶b̶o̶t̶h̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶u̶s̶ the entire IGS.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#82 - 2015-04-06 03:58:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Antolliere
Diana Kim wrote:


And the last thing, by saying gallente started the war, I was referencing to later events, that happened about 7 years ago, not those that happened 200 years ago.


Oh...you mean the part where the Caldari State invaded the Gallente Federation in order to occupy Caldari Prime?

No, I'll cease being coy. You're referring to the Wandering Saint and the Malkalen Disaster which still hasn't been accepted as an action taken by the Federation by any legitimate party. To date, it is still considered the actions of a rogue individual or group of individuals and both the Federation and the State were involved in relief efforts following a disaster for both peoples.

By the way, only a fool would claim the Gallente performed this action to benefit themselves because one of the most notable losses was Ishukone CEO Otro Gariushi, one of the leading voices toward peace in the State (opposite Tibus Heth). Arranging for his death and the deaths of over 600,000 other people (Gallente and Caldari alike) would have been entirely counter intuitive to everything the Federation had been doing prior to that event. (There is more evidence that something else was at work, but that's a very lengthy discussion and this isn't the place for it).

So, I'll ask again....

...are you referring to the part where the State took military action against the Federation? Because, in case you aren't familiar with your history, it was the invasion of the Federation during the disabling of the CONCORD counterthreat network coupled with the attack on Yulai by the Elder Fleet that earned us the oh-so-popular CONCORD Emergency Militia War Powers Act and the war to which you are referring.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#83 - 2015-04-06 05:11:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Whilst I agree that there is much on the Malkalen Incident that is not known, it is a mistake to claim that the Federation does not bear a large degree of the responsibility for it. The pilot of the Wandering Saint was a Gallente Navy Admiral (retired) and he and his fleet was in Malkalen as peace envoys. The pilot of the Nyx was unquestionably Alexander Noir and the voice that denounced the State and claimed the attack as payback for Nouvelle Rouvenor was also his.

Now, a Federal Navy Admiral and official peace envoy is unquestionably AN individual, but I think it's a big mistake to claim that he is nothing more than an individual. He arrived as an ambassador for the Federation and he committed a murderous atrocity in the Federation's name and, if I and others find it hard to look past that point to the tinfoil hattery that can be found in conspiracy town, you'll have to excuse us.

That said, since the attack took place while the Federation's delegation was actually on the station and since that delegation included several senior figures in the Federal government I am completely willing to agree that Noir represented a minority wing of the Federation.

As for Heth's move to seize Home on the back of the Malkalen incident, it may well have been opportunistic, but it can hardly be argued that blowing up a peace summit isn't a casus belli which can be layered on top of the original casus belli that is Caldari Prime. The fact that the Federal government immediately repudiated a peace agreement of it's own on Roden's ascension to the Presidency doesn't lend much further credence to your claims of Caldari hypocrisy. I understand that it's easy to beat up on Diana Kim - her hate makes her so vulnerable and badly clouds her logic and whatever Achuran hell she was raised in hasn't done much to sharpen her command of logical debate - but before you start assigning blame for where we find ourselves to the Caldari people, it's wise to look at all the causes and events - and to remember that when our mad dog got a little bit too... mad... we took him out back and shot him.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Xadiran
Moira.
#84 - 2015-04-06 06:33:31 UTC
Pieter, I was only pointing out hypocrisy with regards to Kim's arguments. I didn't actually mean to imply 'the Caldari are hypocrites' and I'm sorry if that if how it came across.

Understand I personally have no hate or animosity towards the Caldari people or the State as a whole. I fully understand and sympathize with BOTH sides of the struggle that began 200 years ago. The past should be left in the past, and this pointless war of ours should be halted.
Vikarion
Doomheim
#85 - 2015-04-06 16:19:04 UTC
As regards the Wandering Saint...

It's perfectly reasonable to propose that Noir did not represent the official intention of the Federation Government. It is even possible to propose that Noir was somehow replaced or controlled.

But it should also be very hard to conclude that Noir could possibly have acted alone.

For the Wandering Saint to have rammed the Ishukone HQ, three things were necessary. First, that Noir attempt it. Second, that no one on board the vessel used be able to stop it. Third, that the station be rendered vulnerable by the sabotage of its shield systems. The first is relatively easy, the second two...less so.

We are all familiar with the override command CONCORD possesses to lock down a capsuleer ship for destruction after violation of the rules of High Security zones. I find it nearly impossible to believe that neither CONCORD nor the Federation Navy possesses any such capability on Federation Navy ships. Even if that is the case, one suspects that the crew of the Wandering Saint would have been able to at least sabotage the drives or maneuvering thrusters, given that there was enough time to begin an evacuation of the station. Something must have prevented them - unless you want to posit that most of the personnel aboard sincerely wanted to go along with Noir.

Second, it can hardly be an accident that the station shields went down shortly after the arrival of the Federation contingent. Garuishi was a well-loved CEO, and especially well loved by Ishukone personnel. It is unlikely that an Ishukone employee or a single individual could have managed the sabotage of such a critical and robust piece of machinery. However, the arrival of the Federation diplomatic corp would have been the perfect opportunity for an black-ops team to also come aboard, without the knowledge or agreement of the doomed diplomatic contingent or the Federation military as a whole.

Of course, the Federation has been known to try this sort of thing before, such as in the Kassigainen Incident where they attempted the invasion of a Caldari station, but in this case it's very probable that the Federation Government as a whole had no knowledge.

Who, then, is responsible? Certainly not the Caldari, or the megacorps, who had had no ambition to harm their business efforts by a sudden and unprofitable war. Probably not Tibus Heth, who possessed neither the intelligence nor the cunning for such a plan, which in the end did not benefit him, either. Not Ishukone, and not the Caldari Navy, who have historically based themselves on a tradition of defensive warfare. It's not even good for the State's military-industrial complex, since the corporations that make the hardware are also the ones funding the buying of it. There's no profit in selling weapons to yourself.

Nor has the Federation benefited. Black Rise is barely inhabited, while the Federation systems in the war include some core worlds. The Federation economy ((taken from EvE:Source)) has stagnated, even as the Caldari economy has rebounded since the removal of Heth. And the long, drawn out war that is occurring is historically very bad for the Federation Military.

In fact, the only real long-term beneficiaries of this war seem to be Federation Arms Manufacturers, which have also proved somehow magically immune to any constraints the government might have wanted to put on them.

Make of that what you will.
Xadiran
Moira.
#86 - 2015-04-06 17:41:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Xadiran
I can not deny the possibility of what you just said. Personally, I find it hard to believe a team working for a Federation player would sneak aboard the station and sabotage it...but I definitely can not rule it out as a theory.

I would like to say, about Kassigainen, while the fact there were federal marines on-board brings skepticism, the convoy never made it and thus we can't say for certain they were there to take control of a station. That of course is just my inner optimist speaking...but 500 men seems like too few to assault a station whose security is prepared for you.

Regardless of any of that, however, there is one thing that I have found that I thought you might want to add to to your observations, Vikarion:

In a speech that Gariushi made during Heth's rise to power, he very plainly stated that he believed Heth had secretive backers

"I encourage all Caldari who wish to end this disgraceful period of race hate and violence to support the Ishukone and to distance themselves from the brutish, blood stained ranting of Tibus Heth and whoever it is who funds him and pulls his strings ( if he will ever condescend to tell us that, but perhaps he doesn't think it is of any importance to the Caldari people)."

I don't think that suggesting these backers might have played a role is any less valid a theory than a Federal black-ops team.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#87 - 2015-04-06 21:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Rinai Vero
These last few posts concerning the Malkalen deserve credit for being some of the most sober I've read on the IGS in a long time. I suppose that with the benefit of hindsight and as the emotional edge has dulled our insight has grown. At the same time, the further we move from that tragedy, the further the ripples of consequence have spread from Malkalen's origin. Whatever plots were in motion, they've surely been swept away in the subsequent chaos by now.

As for the ancient history that is the origin of the First Gallente - Caldari War, I think we'de probably all be better served working towards a settlement than fighting the same battles over again.

However, one part of the discussion is one I've thought deserves a particular focus, and that's the dispute over Caldari right to withdraw from the Federal Charter. Constitutional scholars in the Federation argue about the issue of secession to this day, and the Caldari Secession hardly settled the matter. One only has to look at the fraught debates over Intaki to see that the topic remains controversial.

Clearly, there was no existing legal process by which the Caldari were able to divest themselves from the Charter. It is my view that many in the Federation would condemn any process the Caldari had attempted to leave the Federation as criminal, which had the unfortunate effect of lending supposed legitimacy to those Caldari who claim force was their only option.

I say both those sides were / are wrong.

Long story short: the Caldari should have held a democratic referendum clearly within the bounds of Federation electoral law. Yes, Democracy is the Gallente way... not the Caldari. Yes, the Federal Government might have callously rejected the legitimacy of such a referendum, but in the eyes of most of the people of the Federation such a referendum would have made clear the will of their Caldari neighbors. Let us not forget, there was a substantial Unionist faction of Caldari Megacorporations. How were we to know who truly represented the will of the Caldari society?

As the Gallente saw things, there was a radical militant Caldari Separatist movement and there were also Caldari Citizens of the Federation. Until that question was answered, it was the duty of the elected representatives of the Federated Union to protect the rights of every Citizen of the Federation.

Call that paternalistic interference or whatever else as you like, it is dishonest not to acknowledge that at least part of what motivated the Federal government was protection of people's rights the Gallente perceived as being trampled by the Secessionist Megas.

So, what is the lesson here? For the Gallente, I believe we need to be more open minded to the differences in which other cultures legitimately represent the will of their societies. For the Caldari, if you want peace try to understand how to communicate with others in terms they can relate to.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#88 - 2015-04-06 23:24:42 UTC
That's actually a very good point, Rinai, and it's one that is new to me. I never thought that we ought to have held a popular referendum to secede, since that is culturally outside of my frame of reference.

Such a referendum would, likely, have been held in much the same way that Caldari votes are held to this day - corporate officers would have collected proxy votes to consolidate their constituency into a few, easy to understand, power blocs. These blocs would have nominated spokespersons to put their views into the public eye and then the voting would have started.

I'm fairly sure that the same answer would have been reached - after all, Mathias Sobaseki would never have taken the actions he took without a clear mandate from the people, at least in his own mind, and the fact that there was no civil disorder following his actions shows that the majority of the people were swept up in his message of self-determination. Perhaps this wouldn't have lasted without the Federations tragic reaction to the news, but that's in the realm of speculation. I wonder how much of the fracture of the Caldari people was along ideological lines and how much of it was based on realpolitik - "I live in the State/Federation and I'd better learn to get along with my neightbours now."

Thought provoking stuff. Thank you.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#89 - 2015-04-07 01:26:30 UTC
Good, it is pleasing to see more reasonable discourse on the topic for a change. We appear to be making headway.

I have nothing really further to contribute, most of what has been said is within the realm of logic and reason and I do not disagree with it on a whole.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."

Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#90 - 2015-04-07 01:48:51 UTC
Damn, civility and courteous discourse on the IGS.... I'm just going to enjoy the irony of it happening in one of Kimmy's threads. Continue.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Xadiran
Moira.
#91 - 2015-04-07 05:43:26 UTC
You would be surprised how many pilots, even though they participate actively or passively in the FDU, deep down just want to see some real peace between our two nations.

Seeing Pieter's response to Rinai makes me think he is a man I wouldn't mind sitting down and having a drink with.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#92 - 2015-04-07 06:02:26 UTC
Xadiran wrote:
You would be surprised how many pilots, even though they participate actively or passively in the FDU, deep down just want to see some real peace between our two nations.

Seeing Pieter's response to Rinai makes me think he is a man I wouldn't mind sitting down and having a drink with.

There seem to be a lot of people like that, on all sides.

Yet we still find reasons for fighting.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#93 - 2015-04-07 14:31:45 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Xadiran wrote:
You would be surprised how many pilots, even though they participate actively or passively in the FDU, deep down just want to see some real peace between our two nations.

Seeing Pieter's response to Rinai makes me think he is a man I wouldn't mind sitting down and having a drink with.

There seem to be a lot of people like that, on all sides.

Yet we still find reasons for fighting.


Honestly, as much as I hope for eventual peace, there are reasons to fight. In my view the Caldari State would not be at the negotiating table over Caldari Prime were it not for military setbacks at the hands of the Federation Navy during Operation Highlander and FDU victories in the warzone.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#94 - 2015-04-07 17:39:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Rinai Vero wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Xadiran wrote:
You would be surprised how many pilots, even though they participate actively or passively in the FDU, deep down just want to see some real peace between our two nations.

Seeing Pieter's response to Rinai makes me think he is a man I wouldn't mind sitting down and having a drink with.

There seem to be a lot of people like that, on all sides.

Yet we still find reasons for fighting.


Honestly, as much as I hope for eventual peace, there are reasons to fight. In my view the Caldari State would not be at the negotiating table over Caldari Prime were it not for military setbacks at the hands of the Federation Navy during Operation Highlander and FDU victories in the warzone.


And I find it very sad you think that Highlander wasn't a huge military setback for BOTH sides. I was there - I heard the transmissions begging for mercy from those burning dreadnoughts and flew through the clouds of escape pods. Whilst Shiigeru burned on the ground, it was almost impossible to make out the devastation through the mass of burning debris in orbit from the Federal fleet. Perhaps that's it - one sides losses blind the other side to their own?

In addition the Caldari State achieved massive victories in the warzone - it wasn't until the leader calling for the fighting was deposed and the very organisation sponsoring the military action was discredited that it became so one sided. How hard do you expect me to fight for an organisation actively trying to dismantle the Caldari way of life, because that was what Heth and the Provists were doing, trying to make us swallow the failed lie of centralisation at the expense of the Corporate model.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#95 - 2015-04-07 22:47:07 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
You are talking about the colonies you built in violation of your agreement with the Federation? Those colonies?


I understand that the colonies breached the charter, it's not surprising since the people who built them were clearly preparing to go their own way, but shall we simply ask if the response was proportionate?

No. It wasn't.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#96 - 2015-04-07 22:51:43 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
You are talking about the colonies you built in violation of your agreement with the Federation? Those colonies?


I understand that the colonies breached the charter, it's not surprising since the people who built them were clearly preparing to go their own way, but shall we simply ask if the response was proportionate?

No. It wasn't.

Has any response in this conflict been proportionate? The answer: depends on which side of the field you're on.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#97 - 2015-04-07 23:01:18 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
You are talking about the colonies you built in violation of your agreement with the Federation? Those colonies?


I understand that the colonies breached the charter, it's not surprising since the people who built them were clearly preparing to go their own way, but shall we simply ask if the response was proportionate?

No. It wasn't.

Has any response in this conflict been proportionate? The answer: depends on which side of the field you're on.


Actually, it doesn't. Many Federal citizens are willing to concede that bombing the frak out of Caldari Prime and kicking the Caldari off their own homeworld was NOT a proportionate response. I will admit that opinion on many more acts - such as Tovil Toba's decision to ram Gallente Prime with his carrier - are subject to factional loyalties.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Xadiran
Moira.
#98 - 2015-04-08 01:07:06 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Many Federal citizens are willing to concede that bombing the frak out of Caldari Prime and kicking the Caldari off their own homeworld was NOT a proportionate response. .


Nothing but truth there.

It was a course of action taken in the heat of the moment by an extremist government. They fanned the flames that burned in the hearts of the public after Nouvelle Rouvenor.

Had cooler heads prevailed, this whole mess might have been avoided.

It is, however, important to understand that side of the events as well. Extreme nationalism clouded peoples judgements, and as such very poor decisions were made, with devestating consequences. We should learn from that, rather than letting that hate of days long past still linger and dictate our actions today.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#99 - 2015-04-08 01:40:08 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
You are talking about the colonies you built in violation of your agreement with the Federation? Those colonies?


I understand that the colonies breached the charter, it's not surprising since the people who built them were clearly preparing to go their own way, but shall we simply ask if the response was proportionate?

No. It wasn't.

Has any response in this conflict been proportionate? The answer: depends on which side of the field you're on.


Actually, it doesn't. Many Federal citizens are willing to concede that bombing the frak out of Caldari Prime and kicking the Caldari off their own homeworld was NOT a proportionate response. I will admit that opinion on many more acts - such as Tovil Toba's decision to ram Gallente Prime with his carrier - are subject to factional loyalties.

Funny story, there's more then 2 sides to every war. The citizens may not approve of it, but the brass obviously didn't feel the same. And I'm sure there are actions taken by your government that were not popular with the people either.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#100 - 2015-04-08 03:19:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Funny story, there's more then 2 sides to every war. The citizens may not approve of it, but the brass obviously didn't feel the same. And I'm sure there are actions taken by your government that were not popular with the people either.


When those actions amount to bombing and invading Gallente Prime, I'll let you know. Recent events committed by my Government's leader that upset me led to me joining with others to kill those who carried out illegal orders and help depose him.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.