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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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AFK Cloaking™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

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Author
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1981 - 2015-04-07 18:56:44 UTC
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Outpost are conquerable. And after froze sov destructible. So all you argument are now down : Agree with nerf perma cloack , or

(1) you want to continue to said "it's game mechanic" but game mean all people can take fun, people who are camped don't take fun and a lot stop play the game time of the camp : lot of fun . So t's not a game mechanic but a broken mechanic.

(2) Argument of : disrupt big brother => Entosis link, prime time and new sov.
(3) Argument of : i want easy kill mail => Risk Vs reward.


All thing make: We must nerf perma cloack.


(4) French expression for this kind of argument who you send : Bad faith (mauvaise foi) . Means people who send argument but they know they are not true argument and just try to make a justification of they're act.


(1) People who are camped can take great fun, if they believe they can beat the hostile in a one on one fight, and that no cyno will be bringing in overwhelming numbers to beat them with.
Try to keep this in mind: Noone cares if the guy stays cloaked. They are worried about what he will do after that cloak is dropped.
Since they don't know when that will happen, they retreat to safety.
If they think the guy is a manageable threat, they won't feel the need to retreat to safety, and everyone can enjoy the content.

(2) If you can't play during your target's prime time, this means you could well be locked out as a threat here.

(3) Easy how? At this point in time, the expectation of overwhelming force states the following requirements
A> You must remain active long enough for other players to disbelieve you are active, but must be AFK.
B> You must have enough friends to operate either a BLOPs or titan, and the ships intending to come through for the attack.

Not sure if you added those together, but it means you must spend a crazy number of hours, and have a bunch of friends on stand-by.
Even the would-be targets are expecting that hostile name might pull off something, which very few would consider being 'easy'.

(4) What is the French term for a biased argument that doesn't consider both sides of an issue, with equal respect?
Perhaps I judge you wrong, but you seem to assume that an AFK cloaked player must have bad intentions, and wish to make EVE a game where play is stopped.
Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1982 - 2015-04-07 19:03:20 UTC
1) Did he engages each time ? (of course no)
2) It's an other subject the prime time problem.
3) If you are active you don't care we want nerf against perma cloack who are often AFK.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1983 - 2015-04-07 19:21:37 UTC
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
1) Did he engages each time ? (of course no)
2) It's an other subject the prime time problem.
3) If you are active you don't care we want nerf against perma cloack who are often AFK.


Big smile

(1) If you are being camped, AND you know you can beat the camper with your PvE ship, you have no reason to discontinue PvE, and probably hope the camper will engage you as a bonus.

(2) Agreed. If you stop referring to it, I will as well in my responses.

(3) Ah, you may wish to consider a player who cannot stay active continuously, but expects to be active much later when they know their friends are all online. They will be AFK much of the initial time they are cloaked in that target system, which could be necessary for the residents to become confused as to whether he is really a threat.
He will likely check on them during his actual window of activity, and see if they are ignoring his name in local by resuming activity.
Even if he intends to fight them one on one, he can't simply tell them that, as they have no reason to believe him.
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1984 - 2015-04-07 19:22:55 UTC  |  Edited by: rsantos
To Dictateur Imperator:

What you want is "control".

You want to control when my cloak turns off and refuse to prepare to when and if I turn my cloak off.Ugh
I call that broken too.

Cloaks are not broken!
People in every other type of space except sov space seem to not have major problems with it.
There are many game plays around cloaks that could be better balanced I agree.
Baaldor
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1985 - 2015-04-07 19:28:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
1) Did he engages each time ? (of course no)
2) It's an other subject the prime time problem.
3) If you are active you don't care we want nerf against perma cloack who are often AFK.


1. I pick my targets, as my cloaky is not exactly a brawler, tackling a Carrier is bad juju.
2. what?
3. I am active, i like to sit a stare at you, follow you from belt to belt......get close to your exhaust....*Snip* Please refrain from posting racial remarks. ISD Ezwal.
Severice
The Order Of Asgard
Lord of Worlds Alliance
#1986 - 2015-04-07 20:03:29 UTC
The problem with AFK cloaking is that you don't have to be at your computer, merely logged in to influence peoples game play. However this is true for everyone who own a titan or mothership in range of a major battle. This is true for every roaming party that roams into some station system looking for kills. Are those fifty pilots sitting docked peacefully afk, cowering or assembling?
Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1987 - 2015-04-07 20:09:14 UTC
Severice wrote:
The problem with AFK cloaking is that you don't have to be at your computer, merely logged in to influence peoples game play. However this is true for everyone who own a titan or mothership in range of a major battle. This is true for every roaming party that roams into some station system looking for kills. Are those fifty pilots sitting docked peacefully afk, cowering or assembling?



This people are not in your system of farming, they can't attack you unless a cyan will be open.

Problem of perma cloack is : You can't hunt him. Make they can be hunt : game will be better for all.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1988 - 2015-04-07 20:47:19 UTC
Severice wrote:
The problem with AFK cloaking is that you don't have to be at your computer, merely logged in to influence peoples game play. However this is true for everyone who own a titan or mothership in range of a major battle. This is true for every roaming party that roams into some station system looking for kills. Are those fifty pilots sitting docked peacefully afk, cowering or assembling?

I do not believe it was designed with this in mind, as the resulting form of game play.

I believe it needs a tweak, upstream from the cloak, when regarding causality as a context.

Fix this part, number 1 on the list, and the rest are re-aligned.

1 PvE craft expect covops ships to overwhelm them in combat, possibly through use of a cyno
2 covops craft make use of a cloak, either to deter PvE activity, or to desensitize residents to their presence in the hopes they will become active again
3 players with limited resources are unable to manage the threat represented by an unknown, and cease activity rather than gamble.

Becomes this:

1 PvE craft expect a decent chance to beat a covops craft, assuming they compromise fit for combat as well as PvE.
2 covops craft use a cloak, but are usually ignored as a non-issue since they are manageable by fitting for their threat.
3 Players with limited resources tend to always fit for trouble, as it saves them time and lets them be active in more areas
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1989 - 2015-04-07 20:52:14 UTC
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Problem of perma cloack is : You can't hunt him. Make they can be hunt : game will be better for all.

I think you are drawing a conclusion, based on other details which are not consistently supporting it.

Being able to hunt a cloaked character, is not the only way to bring resolution to this issue.

Hunting cloaked players also requires an expectation that cloaked presence is not a freely known one, but requires an action with awareness as a probable result.
Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1990 - 2015-04-08 01:19:46 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Problem of perma cloack is : You can't hunt him. Make they can be hunt : game will be better for all.

I think you are drawing a conclusion, based on other details which are not consistently supporting it.

Being able to hunt a cloaked character, is not the only way to bring resolution to this issue.

Hunting cloaked players also requires an expectation that cloaked presence is not a freely known one, but requires an action with awareness as a probable result.



Why perma cloacker can't be hunt ? You just want a "god mod". Actually perma cloack is a "god mod". If you can hunt they they will not be a "god mod" but a balanced mod, you must be active, you must have a fit to survive if someone fin you ect...


Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1991 - 2015-04-08 03:49:15 UTC
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Problem of perma cloack is : You can't hunt him. Make they can be hunt : game will be better for all.

I think you are drawing a conclusion, based on other details which are not consistently supporting it.

Being able to hunt a cloaked character, is not the only way to bring resolution to this issue.

Hunting cloaked players also requires an expectation that cloaked presence is not a freely known one, but requires an action with awareness as a probable result.



Why perma cloacker can't be hunt ? You just want a "god mod". Actually perma cloack is a "god mod". If you can hunt they they will not be a "god mod" but a balanced mod, you must be active, you must have a fit to survive if someone fin you ect...




"God mode"? Please. Spare us the histrionics. God mode...I can't activate my guns, my scrambler, my tank, I can't even target! So long as I am in this "God Mode" you are entirely safe. As soon as I decloak I can of course target, shoot, and so forth...but then so can you!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1992 - 2015-04-08 04:07:57 UTC
Severice wrote:
The problem with AFK cloaking is that you don't have to be at your computer, merely logged in to influence peoples game play. However this is true for everyone who own a titan or mothership in range of a major battle. This is true for every roaming party that roams into some station system looking for kills. Are those fifty pilots sitting docked peacefully afk, cowering or assembling?


This is why AFK cloaking and local are sub-optimal (yet balanced).

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1993 - 2015-04-08 04:10:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Lucas Kell wrote:
Modern Inferno wrote:
Yes, its possible to cloak up in a popular ratting system in order to attempt to keep a group from ratting. This Is the risk involved with ratting in null and low.

There's no arguement here, i dont understand how this is even being considered.
The problem is that EVE is about (or supposed to be about) being a challenging environment. When a player can cloak up and retain 100% safety while they sleep while still having the same effect on the space they are attacking, there's obviously a mechanics issue there.


But it actually creates a challenge for the PvE pilot, who otherwise would not have much of a challenge.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1994 - 2015-04-08 04:14:40 UTC
Bowbndr wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Nikk Narrel:
(1) Explain here how you find a cloacky ship . And i will explain you how you can make people undock from a station or left pos shield.

(2) With you no discussion you try to defend broken game play. But CCP want to change it search to understand why... Ho maybe because be safe in space if you are AFK is not a part of gameplay but just a broken mechanic ?

Yes Perma cloak will be nerf, all structure to (entosis link). We can discuss how and why it will be nerf, but stop to defend a broken mechanic.

(3) Other argument risk vs reward : To farm you need to have 1 ship , see pve player a lot have ship at 500 M and more. You arrive you perma cloack they stop farm. They save 500 M. Remove local an let perma cloack exist: You kill they you are happy, nice KM in less of 1 hour, you loot for 100 M in the wreck without any risk.

(4) You don't see the problem ? No risk, you will make more isk as a lot of player without any risk. Pve player juste left 0.0, less target, less people in 0.0. Bye bye eve.

(5) Nerf perma cloack and let local: Yes more safer 0.0 that bad pve player can make isk you can't have easy km ... but yu have more pve/miner in 0.0, more possible target, more kill mail, more content for all people. => Eve is alive.

Big smile

(1) You catch them at bottleneck locations, such as gates. Otherwise, you must rely on player error for them to be exposed.
(As player error is accepted as means to catch PvE targets in this context, it must need to be acceptable on the other side too)

(2) There are four ways to be AFK, one of which actually involves disconnecting from the game. All four involve preserving the ship, once the individual requirements are met. Cloaking is only one of these.

(3) In order to launch such an attack, resulting in the kill mail and loot, the first step is always the same. The cloak gets turned off, and the ship becomes exposed and vulnerable to any normal attack.
Expecting risk, and experiencing imminent clear and present danger, are not the same thing.

(4) Make my mining barge able to fight on the same level as a Force Recon. Include reasonable expectation that a cyno appearing on grid allows me time to react and counter. I won't need to run, because I like the idea of mining with benefits.
(full load of ore, and a kill mail bonus, who wouldn't like that?)

(5) Under current circumstances, you can't catch a miner who is both prepared and alert. Increasing the number of targets noone can catch is not adding content.
If we are building mechanics around requiring player error, that is news to me.



My question is simply what content dose being cloaked up in a system create? I get the idea that you have to be able to gather intel, and I understand having to go get a drink or use the bathroom. but if you log in and cloak up and just walk away from the computer then there should be a mechanic to decloak you or log you off at the least.


Should there be a mechanic to eject you from station if you log in and walk away? Kick your from the POS? Just curious here.

As for content, I believe it creates content in that at the very least it sends the weak kneed running for their POS or outpost and then to the forums to rage post.

Last time I had to deal with an AFK cloaker I noted he was primarily active in the EUTZ. As I am US TZ I just undocked and PvE'd away. Even got a nice escalation while he was hanging around.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#1995 - 2015-04-08 04:18:48 UTC
Vilianis wrote:
Rovinia wrote:
One possibility would be to make cloaking devices use fuel. Just use the mechanics of the anciliary reppers with some new sort of fuel (would as well give PI a little push).

After 2-3 hours, you have to get a refuel or your cloaking device deactivates itself. In most cases that would mean that you have to leave the system from time to time --> more traffic on stargates --> more things to shoot.


Well put !
It's not the Cloaky guy in system I have an issue with - it is the ability to influence this game while being afk for no risk. A trickle use of fuel would balance this somewhat I suppose as mentioned above...every few hours. No worse than being able to set your own timers when convenient for you.


So more shooting of the cloaking ships, and reducing risk for the PvE ships. Noted you just don't get this game. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Insurance Agent
Hull Zero Two
#1996 - 2015-04-08 06:48:57 UTC
Baaldor wrote:
[quote=Dictateur Imperator]1) ....smell your jewlazors....


Antisemitism, slipped by ISD's

SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#1997 - 2015-04-08 19:09:53 UTC
I don't really want to see any major changes with the cloaking mechanics, but I would be in favor of removing safe-logoff for cloaky afk campers in alliance-held sov. Maybe you have a six hour timer or something absurd like that where you can be scanned down. Just a little something to promote some movement, such as forcing the camper to actually leave the alliance-held space before logging off.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#1998 - 2015-04-08 19:45:39 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
I don't really want to see any major changes with the cloaking mechanics, but I would be in favor of removing safe-logoff for cloaky afk campers in alliance-held sov. Maybe you have a six hour timer or something absurd like that where you can be scanned down. Just a little something to promote some movement, such as forcing the camper to actually leave the alliance-held space before logging off.

I suspect that would have a net result of reduced content, except for where the camper had no intent to log off.

Your camper would either AFK cloak
OR leave after accomplishing a limited goal
OR recognize they could not accomplish their goal in a single play session, be unable to AFK cloak or log off in hostile territory, and scrub the entire mission.

Players can either achieve their goals directly, keep trying until they do by means of persistence, or give up and find something else to do.

Logging out is one means to preserve progress, in that they keep the results of having gotten passed defenses already.
But it sacrifices any value to be had from misinformation. Assuming the local intel is unchanged, the residents know the threat has gone, and when it returns they will know that as well.

AFK Cloaking is another means to preserve progress, which also keeps the results of having gotten passed defenses.
But, it begins a disinformation campaign the moment that the player begins to be AFK, as it only shows the name being listed as a constant. It becomes increasingly uncertain whether this pilot is active, the longer they go without contact known to local residents.
This has one major factor different from logging out, in gameplay terms. The residents are pushed towards disbelief regarding their own intel source, rather than seeing it with practical expectation of accuracy.

It is, in my view, the free reporting of At Keyboard player presence, which would be more damaging to the game.
Insurance Agent
Hull Zero Two
#1999 - 2015-04-08 21:37:51 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
[quote=SFM Hobb3s]

Players can either achieve their goals directly, keep trying until they do by means of persistence, or give up and find something else to do.



Would it be safe to assume that this applies to all players of EvE, cloaked or non cloaked?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#2000 - 2015-04-08 22:00:13 UTC
Insurance Agent wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
[quote=SFM Hobb3s]

Players can either achieve their goals directly, keep trying until they do by means of persistence, or give up and find something else to do.



Would it be safe to assume that this applies to all players of EvE, cloaked or non cloaked?

In many cases, yes.
It assumes the individual has set specific goals, rather than simply choosing to hang out or other less goal oriented play.

It has additional relevance here, because some suggestions have the potential to shift players away from certain types of play.
Specifically, those who would be otherwise a benefit to the game as a cloaked hostile invading opposing sov null space.

I believe we want those cloaked hostiles, but the change should be directed at making the PvE players comfortable in their presence, and undeterred by the prospect of encountering them.