These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Is assault frigates a bit underpowered?

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#21 - 2015-04-07 12:28:46 UTC
Id like to see the jag change to a t2 breacher. Double RoF bonus with application bonus (like claymore).

I like the jag, dont get me wrong, but even before the svipul, it was mediocre with arty, and could be kited by anything if it fit acs. Now with the svipul, its faster, tankier, and does more damage. So i dont see a.reason to fly minny af anytime soon. If jag changed its bonuses to missiles, it would have a niche the svipul doesnt cover already.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#22 - 2015-04-07 14:52:01 UTC
afkalt wrote:
And with a 50% sig drop, I'd never fly anything else on a roam again, ever.

Have you SEEN a dual MSAB hawk?


True, but almost every hawk you see is going to be dual MASB....

Too predictable, easy to counter.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#23 - 2015-04-07 15:13:57 UTC
The mwd-sigbloom reduction was a good step imo. Number should be higher though. I don't like the not-scrammable idea, that's just meh.

Else, their slotcount is a bit low, their PG/CPU terrible, base sig is pretty big still, sensor strength and lock range are to low and lastly...

... what is the deal with that crappy capacitor. This pitiful powercore you're given with your assault frigate can't even run a mwd and a point in most cases, this just got to be a joke.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#24 - 2015-04-07 16:47:07 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:
The mwd-sigbloom reduction was a good step imo. Number should be higher though. I don't like the not-scrammable idea, that's just meh.

Else, their slotcount is a bit low, their PG/CPU terrible, base sig is pretty big still, sensor strength and lock range are to low and lastly...

... what is the deal with that crappy capacitor. This pitiful powercore you're given with your assault frigate can't even run a mwd and a point in most cases, this just got to be a joke.


I think the cap is the biggest issue. Using the jag as an example.

It has just barely over a minute with MWD + t2 point, and no other mods. So means you need a cap booster to "kite" in a arty jag. Problem is, because you are using arty, you barely have enough PG to fit a cap booster. It can be done, but requires you to use 2 t2 ACRs which cost about the same as the hull. Meaning your rigs are wasted. The tank you have left is barely enough to tank a few warriors. And you might do 150dps with shortrange ammo.

CCP says "NO, you cant shoot 150dps @ 20km from a jag that goes 2600 m/s" but is ok for the svipul to project 190dps out to 30-40km, or 290ish out to 20km going 3500m/s. Doesnt make sense to me. Its like they purposely neutered AF to prevent kiting, but then made the OP t3ds that do that same thing hilariously better.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
rsantos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2015-04-07 17:13:44 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
have you seen harpy fleets recently?


Harpies are in a special place because they have damage projection 10 times larger than most of the other assault frigates. That makes their role completely different.


And why is that "Balanced"! Uhh!?
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2015-04-07 17:27:06 UTC
Not sure about other AFs all the Caldari one seem fine, and I have personally seen an enyo wipe 3 battleships, one of which was a rattlesnake the others were a domi and a mael.

the Matari and Ammarian AFs seem to have issues. bad slot layout and fitting seem to cripple these ships.

wolf, 2 mids and has T2 shield resist..... seriosuly WTF, moreover you cant dual prop for obvious reasons
Jag, good slot layout but dose not have the grid for arty while bing bonused for it, and is -1 gun
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#27 - 2015-04-07 17:53:28 UTC
rsantos wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
FireFrenzy wrote:
have you seen harpy fleets recently?


Harpies are in a special place because they have damage projection 10 times larger than most of the other assault frigates. That makes their role completely different.


And why is that "Balanced"! Uhh!?


Because its a caldari turret ship. Most caldari turret ships have range bonus. Similar to their missile ships. Also, caldari, just in their ship philosphy are more orientated to fleet roles due to resist bonuses and higher base HP pools (at the cost of speed).

Harpies arent really a problem (or hawks for that matter, minus the not racially accurate shield boost bonus).

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#28 - 2015-04-07 17:59:07 UTC
what that also shows is some of the HAC's are quicker than their T1 counterparts which is obviously wrong, and they need a speed nerf, looks at vagabond, eagle - moa needs the speed buff here

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-04-07 18:13:22 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


(or hawks for that matter, minus the not racially accurate shield boost bonus).


The missiles are already triple bonused tho so I'm not sure there are all that many more options unless we really make it a "baby cerberus" by strapping on a flight time bonus too...
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#30 - 2015-04-07 18:28:06 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


(or hawks for that matter, minus the not racially accurate shield boost bonus).


The missiles are already triple bonused tho so I'm not sure there are all that many more options unless we really make it a "baby cerberus" by strapping on a flight time bonus too...


Whats wrong with an explosion velocity bonus? Or shield resist bonus? With EV bonus, it would function similarly as a corax, but be able to fit a tank. its slowish but would have great projection and be able to support cruisers very well for anti tackle. Makes more sense than the oddball shield boost bonus.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-04-07 18:33:20 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:


(or hawks for that matter, minus the not racially accurate shield boost bonus).


The missiles are already triple bonused tho so I'm not sure there are all that many more options unless we really make it a "baby cerberus" by strapping on a flight time bonus too...


Whats wrong with an explosion velocity bonus? Or shield resist bonus? With EV bonus, it would function similarly as a corax, but be able to fit a tank. its slowish but would have great projection and be able to support cruisers very well for anti tackle. Makes more sense than the oddball shield boost bonus.


I was going without the resist one because I didn't think CCP would want both AF to be range + resist bonused. Didn't think of EV but it would indeed work.
Pierre Fonulique
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2015-04-08 01:56:48 UTC
This makes a lot of sense, but I'd personally attack it in a slightly different way. I see Assault Frigates as tackle in the same way that Interceptors are, but I feel they should do it differently. Inty's should be the premier fast tackle, with the ability to catch fast targets and get out when things get hairy, but AF's should be the heavy tackle that can stick to a target with an entire fleet trying to bring them down.

In order to accommodate this, where Inty's get a bonus to MWD's for the raw speed, AF's should get a bonus to afterburners. If AF's with afterburners went the speed of MWD cruisers then they'd be able to control range against larger ships while ceding tactical control against frigates, leaving them with a tactical niche that would make them useful in combined fleets.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#33 - 2015-04-08 03:05:28 UTC
William Rokov wrote:
Merlin - Harpy - 2814 - 2199 - 0,78
Kestrel - Hawk - 2767 - 2205 - 0,8
Punisher - Retribution - 2905 - 2297 - 0,79
Tristan - Ishkur - 3022 - 2319 - 0,77
Incursus - Enyo - 3033 - 2380 - 0,78
Rifter - jaguar - 3186 - 2688 - 0,84
Rifter - wolf - 3186 - 2543 - 0,80
Worst and best result removed, average multiplier - 0,79.


As others before me said that assault frigate were supposed to kill destroyers and cruisers which they can, though that really should look at the capacitor of them.


William Rokov wrote:
Now same for t1 cruiser and Heavy Assault Cruisers.
Moa - Eagle - 1547 - 1569 - 1.01
Caracal - Cerberus - 1881 - 1730 - 0,92
Omen - Zealot - 2018 - 1662 - 0,82
Vexor - Ishtar - 1663 - 1578 - 0,95
Thorax - Deimos - 2028 - 1925 - 0,95
Stabber - Vagabond - 2435 - 2453 - 1.01
Rupture - Muninn - 2453 - 1897 - 1.12
Worst and best result removed, average multiplier - 0,97.


That is only half of the story. While tech one cruisers maybe faster for a while, they cannot keep that speed up for long durations as they cap themselves out after 1-2.5 minutes.
HACs on the other hand can keep zooming around with mwd on all day long if they want to - which makes them usuable.

If you look at it that way, you can say that HACs are not better then tech one but different.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#34 - 2015-04-08 03:20:17 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Lloyd Roses wrote:
The mwd-sigbloom reduction was a good step imo. Number should be higher though. I don't like the not-scrammable idea, that's just meh.

Else, their slotcount is a bit low, their PG/CPU terrible, base sig is pretty big still, sensor strength and lock range are to low and lastly...

... what is the deal with that crappy capacitor. This pitiful powercore you're given with your assault frigate can't even run a mwd and a point in most cases, this just got to be a joke.


I think the cap is the biggest issue. Using the jag as an example.

It has just barely over a minute with MWD + t2 point, and no other mods. So means you need a cap booster to "kite" in a arty jag. Problem is, because you are using arty, you barely have enough PG to fit a cap booster. It can be done, but requires you to use 2 t2 ACRs which cost about the same as the hull. Meaning your rigs are wasted. The tank you have left is barely enough to tank a few warriors. And you might do 150dps with shortrange ammo.

CCP says "NO, you cant shoot 150dps @ 20km from a jag that goes 2600 m/s" but is ok for the svipul to project 190dps out to 30-40km, or 290ish out to 20km going 3500m/s. Doesnt make sense to me. Its like they purposely neutered AF to prevent kiting, but then made the OP t3ds that do that same thing hilariously better.


Quoted for the gospel truth.

I always felt the Jag was an especially weak AF and I was determined to try make it work (in FW low) so I fitted it in a similar style to a dual web arty firetail. All the numbers were looking good, solid speed, better tank and dps than the firetail, so I took one out for a spin.....only to find out that the cap was so horrendous, that you couldn't even run your full mag of paste in your AAR without capping yourself out (you'd only get 5 of 8 cycles max). Comparable T1 ships have MUCH better cap than the Jag and I really can't fathom why. I assumed that cap wasn't going to be a problem when fitting it out but I was so wrong. I've given up on the Jag, it's just thrash.
William Rokov
Better go yolo
Yolo Brothers
#35 - 2015-04-08 03:45:47 UTC
elitatwo wrote:

That is only half of the story. While tech one cruisers maybe faster for a while, they cannot keep that speed up for long durations as they cap themselves out after 1-2.5 minutes.
HACs on the other hand can keep zooming around with mwd on all day long if they want to - which makes them usuable.

It is not really big deal in pvp anyway. U dont need to use mwd all the time. But if u really need some huge usage of capacitor, u will fit capbooster and it will let u a lot more cap, than this t1-t2 base capacitor difference.
elitatwo wrote:

If you look at it that way, you can say that HACs are not better then tech one but different.

Thats true, they are a bit different. But HAC and t1 cruisers here is example of well balanced tier ship, t1 cruisers is usable and popular, same as HACs. T1 frigates and interceptors are a lot more popular, than assault frigate, because of no niche for assault frigates. Assaults got some usage in low sec FW, but it is only because of artificial barriers in faction wars for small plexes. If u will check any small scale pvp not in FW, u will notice that assaults are main useless class of ships. For any possible role in pvp there are some ships, that are a lot better, than assaults and with same price category.

No links, no scouts. True solo pvp pilot.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#36 - 2015-04-08 04:32:16 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:


I always felt the Jag was an especially weak AF and I was determined to try make it work (in FW low) so I fitted it in a similar style to a dual web arty firetail. All the numbers were looking good, solid speed, better tank and dps than the firetail, so I took one out for a spin.....only to find out that the cap was so horrendous, that you couldn't even run your full mag of paste in your AAR without capping yourself out (you'd only get 5 of 8 cycles max). Comparable T1 ships have MUCH better cap than the Jag and I really can't fathom why. I assumed that cap wasn't going to be a problem when fitting it out but I was so wrong. I've given up on the Jag, it's just thrash.


Same, i've made 10+ arty jag fits, and only found 1-2 of them to be any good.

I flew mine in FW and had a fit specific for null roaming. Used in similar fashion, its ok at scram kiting. Although a rail comet will walk all over it. Fit mine with MASB, scram, web, ab for FW, and in null would use MSE, scram, web, MWD. Only way to manage cap was to use scram. Null roam fit used to be like 165dps with 3 damage mods using 280's, now after arty buff its around 180, which isn't too bad i suppose. Its just the fitting/cap/tank is pretty atrocious.

I've stopped flying small ships until t3d's calm down, its kind of ruined small ship PvP, as most solo frigs against a t3d aren't going to do well. Flying BC's now to kill t3d's heh.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2015-04-08 04:57:17 UTC
William Rokov wrote:
elitatwo wrote:

That is only half of the story. While tech one cruisers maybe faster for a while, they cannot keep that speed up for long durations as they cap themselves out after 1-2.5 minutes.
HACs on the other hand can keep zooming around with mwd on all day long if they want to - which makes them usuable.

It is not really big deal in pvp anyway. U dont need to use mwd all the time. But if u really need some huge usage of capacitor, u will fit capbooster and it will let u a lot more cap, than this t1-t2 base capacitor difference.
elitatwo wrote:

If you look at it that way, you can say that HACs are not better then tech one but different.

Thats true, they are a bit different. But HAC and t1 cruisers here is example of well balanced tier ship, t1 cruisers is usable and popular, same as HACs. T1 frigates and interceptors are a lot more popular, than assault frigate, because of no niche for assault frigates. Assaults got some usage in low sec FW, but it is only because of artificial barriers in faction wars for small plexes. If u will check any small scale pvp not in FW, u will notice that assaults are main useless class of ships. For any possible role in pvp there are some ships, that are a lot better, than assaults and with same price category.


You usually get a fitted T1 cruiser for the price of a fitted AF but with a better insurance payout. You lose T2 resiit but gain buffer. You lose application but get raw DPS and your opponent will most likely be in a cruiser too anyway so your application will probably be fine anyway.
Traejun DiSanctis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#38 - 2015-04-08 05:22:00 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
*points at Interceptors*
Frigates have more subclasses than Cruisers.
Interceptors are your speed class, AF's are your tanky slow class. Seizing the single stat where they are actually pretty much intentionally slower as an argument really doesn't work.


This. The many sub-classes of frigates is intentional. Each one is meant to file a certain niche... serve a certain role, if you will. The AF is generally tougher, meaner and slower because it's meant to punch above its weight class. An AF getting in close on a Cruiser. That's not to say they can't take on other frigs, but it becomes more about their damage projection and the ability to kill the target before it gets into scram range.

Giving AF's more speed would just make them the perfect (non-special role) frigates. There would be no reason to fly anything else.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#39 - 2015-04-08 05:28:51 UTC
They were fine until you know what.

Delete D3s.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#40 - 2015-04-08 06:12:15 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Not sure about other AFs all the Caldari one seem fine, and I have personally seen an enyo wipe 3 battleships, one of which was a rattlesnake the others were a domi and a mael.



3 at the same time? If so then its not that the Enyo is good just that the BS's were really bad (derp style). 3 (3.5 with the domi) full flights of lights would really hurt ,even a single medium nuet would have decimated the enyo and only 1 has to pull range to get in a few shots with sentries. Worst case the AF kills 2 and third warps off before the second dies .