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[April] Removal of Garage Door Cynos

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Sadr Dillinger
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#61 - 2015-04-02 22:11:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Sadr Dillinger
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
honestly if you think that players need a motivation to innovate new strategies and that motivation must be a flaw in the game you're playing the wrong game
What?

Let me re-phrase; that's a pretty stupid generalisation of the post you originally quoted Roll

(no, I don't believe that )
Sadr Dillinger
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#62 - 2015-04-02 22:17:22 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
this is not to say that pos weaponry shouldn't be updated, just that your argument that the garage door mechanic only exists because supers are ~too risky~ (death2supers) is so hilariously bad it is hard to know where to start on what is wrong with that idea
Concession accepted.
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#63 - 2015-04-03 00:48:04 UTC
Sadr Dillinger wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
this is not to say that pos weaponry shouldn't be updated, just that your argument that the garage door mechanic only exists because supers are ~too risky~ (death2supers) is so hilariously bad it is hard to know where to start on what is wrong with that idea
Concession accepted.


I strongly doubt you're even a super/titan pilot.

And if you are, your ship is probably no more than a POS ornament.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#64 - 2015-04-03 04:52:15 UTC
oh so only people that constantly driveby doomsday with their titans count

i guess we can just stop here and ask pl to tell us what to do

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#65 - 2015-04-03 05:16:14 UTC
couldn't you have done this with fighters rather than removing assignment?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Dora Adant
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2015-04-03 08:35:48 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Dora Adant wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Dora Adant wrote:
so how are we as small entities supposed to move their supers now?

the warp speed changes really really ****** warping them to safe spots, phoebe made moving them anywhere at all already a massive pain in the gonads

so now we have to set up two POS for every jump? one to light the cyno on (with guns/jams) and one to huddle in waiting for the timer to expire?

with caution. Just like everyone else. You don't need absolute safety to move a super. That would be a self-imposed requirement.


caution is pretty much a moot point if you ever need to move past systems like mai, pynakastoh, oijanen etc (aka unavoidable chokepoints that are camped)


Can't you use an extra jump on your trip to jump over those systems or are the systems they connect too far appart to even allow that?


take a look at the jump map from those systems, no...you can't
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#67 - 2015-04-03 08:45:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ITTigerClawIK
Wait so you can stop cyno usage near a POS but you cant stop fighters get assigned near a pos and have to completely remove an entire feature?
Sadr Dillinger
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#68 - 2015-04-03 09:05:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sadr Dillinger
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Sadr Dillinger wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
this is not to say that pos weaponry shouldn't be updated, just that your argument that the garage door mechanic only exists because supers are ~too risky~ (death2supers) is so hilariously bad it is hard to know where to start on what is wrong with that idea
Concession accepted.


I strongly doubt you're even a super/titan pilot.

And if you are, your ship is probably no more than a POS ornament.
And what does that have to do with anything?

I've pointed out a simple, logical way to change things, that spreads risk around between would be 'jumpers' and would be ''jump'ees' and it would be a timely change to make with the removal of 'the garage door'.

On the Large Turret battery side (option #2), it would be as simple as changing a single number in the database (ok, x4 for the different racial flavours), which would make dedicated 'Deathstars' actually worth cyno'ing to, as opposed to being as much use as a chocolate fireguard at the moment.

On the infini-point for scrambling batteries side, not entirely certain how that was implemented for HIC's, but even if that isn't as simple as [again], changing a single number in the database, the code already exists.
Vulfen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2015-04-03 11:20:11 UTC
nice to see ccp to something about this. good change.
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#70 - 2015-04-03 15:24:44 UTC
Sadr Dillinger wrote:
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Sadr Dillinger wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
this is not to say that pos weaponry shouldn't be updated, just that your argument that the garage door mechanic only exists because supers are ~too risky~ (death2supers) is so hilariously bad it is hard to know where to start on what is wrong with that idea
Concession accepted.


I strongly doubt you're even a super/titan pilot.

And if you are, your ship is probably no more than a POS ornament.
And what does that have to do with anything?


A lot, actually.

Flying and using a super is a practice that's unlike anything else in Eve. What you've been doing here is basically no different than watching a documentary on Steven Hawking and then calling yourself an expert on string theory. It's a world unto itself.

And by using a super (or titan) I mean more than just buying one and then having it chill offline in a POS except when someone needs a bridge; or if some ~bloc FC~ calls for a SBU/POCO grind in the dead of night. I use supers both in lowsec and null, and I hunt the supers of others a lot, and I know the tricks and tactics on both sides of that coin.

The Garage Door mechanic was counter to the original intent that they be risky to move - hence why they cannot dock like other capitals can. CCP's decision behind that wasn't just because "lol they're too big!" - it was deeper than that.

As for moving a super in today's Eve, it's just something you don't do on a lark. One needs to pay attention to a lot of in- and out-of-game things to make a good, informed choice; as well as actually know how to fly their ship, which a sizable portion of the Eve super population doesn't. I'm talking crap like 100MN Afterburners; no Hyperspatial mods, no i-stabs, not knowing how to MWD into warp -- a lot of this seemingly practical knowledge is just lost on the bulk of the super-owning population.... so they rely on game mechanics rather than skill to keep themselves alive.
Sadr Dillinger
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#71 - 2015-04-03 15:33:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sadr Dillinger
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Sadr Dillinger wrote:
Tarsas Phage wrote:
Sadr Dillinger wrote:
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
this is not to say that pos weaponry shouldn't be updated, just that your argument that the garage door mechanic only exists because supers are ~too risky~ (death2supers) is so hilariously bad it is hard to know where to start on what is wrong with that idea
Concession accepted.


I strongly doubt you're even a super/titan pilot.

And if you are, your ship is probably no more than a POS ornament.
And what does that have to do with anything?


A lot, actually.

Flying and using a super is a practice that's unlike anything else in Eve. What you've been doing here is basically no different than watching a documentary on Steven Hawking and then calling yourself an expert on string theory. It's a world unto itself.

And by using a super (or titan) I mean more than just buying one and then having it chill offline in a POS except when someone needs a bridge; or if some ~bloc FC~ calls for a SBU/POCO grind in the dead of night. I use supers both in lowsec and null, and I hunt the supers of others a lot, and I know the tricks and tactics on both sides of that coin.

The Garage Door mechanic was counter to the original intent that they be risky to move - hence why they cannot dock like other capitals can. CCP's decision behind that wasn't just because "lol they're too big!" - it was deeper than that.

As for moving a super in today's Eve, it's just something you don't do on a lark. One needs to pay attention to a lot of in- and out-of-game things to make a good, informed choice; as well as actually know how to fly their ship, which a sizable portion of the Eve super population doesn't. I'm talking crap like 100MN Afterburners; no Hyperspatial mods, no i-stabs, not knowing how to MWD into warp -- a lot of this seemingly practical knowledge is just lost on the bulk of the super-owning population.... so they rely on game mechanics rather than skill to keep themselves alive.
It's telling that you snipped the majority of my post (reference: beefing up Deathstars to be actual Deathstars....), what are you afraid of? That hunting lone supers might actually put yours at risk?... Big smile
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#72 - 2015-04-03 15:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsas Phage
Sadr Dillinger wrote:
It's telling that you snipped the majority of my post (reference: beefing up Deathstars to be actual Deathstars....), what are you afraid of? That hunting lone supers might actually put yours at risk?... Big smile


I was specifically addressing your apparent unfamiliarity with flying supers in general.

We've always had the risk. We don't fling ours around with reckless abandon; it's a fact that's not lost on us, and we do assess the situation and do and check things to make sure we're good. What those things are, and what those resources are, is getting into the realm of trade secrets.

There are plenty of examples where people have been baited successfully in the past. A prime example is the 2013 loss of the PL Revenant. There are plenty of others, as well, a very recent one being Niding's Avatar. The risk has always been there; so there is no "might" about it.
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#73 - 2015-04-03 16:20:48 UTC
Sadr Dillinger wrote:

...beefing up Deathstars to be actual Deathstars...


Deathstars used to be Deathstars - Until this thing happened, where everyone and their sister got a mothership with three Titans. vOv

Thank Capitalblobs Online™, and I suspect that will never change with respect to the current POS system.

Instead, what I think will happen, is that capitals get nerfed to realistic/human "playability" levels and the new coming structures system will reflect that.

Sorry about your single mothership investment. vOv

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Tarsas Phage
Sniggerdly
#74 - 2015-04-03 16:25:34 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Sadr Dillinger wrote:

...beefing up Deathstars to be actual Deathstars...


Deathstars used to be Deathstars - Until this thing happened, where everyone and their sister got a mothership with three Titans. vOv

Thank Capitalblobs Online™, and I suspect that will never change with respect to the current POS system.

Instead, what I think will happen, is that capitals get nerfed to realistic/human "playability" levels and the new coming structures system will reflect that.

Sorry about your single mothership investment. vOv


I think you're vastly overstating things there. Perception, in this case, doesn't match reality. Sure, some players have both supers and titans, and perhaps multiples of them. But the vast majority of the supers in existence are the only super capital type item that its owner has.

Besides, who will ever be able to correctly define what "realistic" actually means?
Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#75 - 2015-04-03 16:38:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
Not sure, but CCP has to look at Eve's history before capital powercreep and what made the game succeed in the first place, lest we get stuck in the current stagnant situation forever.

The 101 tit0nz battle in XYZ news headline hype has peaked and is over.

// [PvP Damage Done by Class (Scylla)] //

[Cruisers Online]
Sadr Dillinger
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#76 - 2015-04-04 06:54:36 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
Sadr Dillinger wrote:

...beefing up Deathstars to be actual Deathstars...


Deathstars used to be Deathstars - Until this thing happened, where everyone and their sister got a mothership with three Titans. vOv

Thank Capitalblobs Online™, and I suspect that will never change with respect to the current POS system.

Instead, what I think will happen, is that capitals get nerfed to realistic/human "playability" levels and the new coming structures system will reflect that.

Sorry about your single mothership investment. vOv
In reality though 'Deathstars' have never really been such to anything above sub-cap size. They were introduced before Dreadnoughts and Carriers were in existence, with one iteration back in 2007, when all the turret batteries got pushed out outside the shield, lost some tracking, gained a little bit of damage.

On the bolded bit.... Lol
Cade Windstalker
#77 - 2015-04-04 07:00:39 UTC
Just my thoughts on this whole deathstar POS debate.

A single un-manned structure should never be a major threat to a prepared opponent. If you want to counter 50 guys hot-dropping your Super Capital in-transit then either prepare better than them, with scouting, planning, timing, or whatever else, or bring 50 or more of your own guys and drop them right back.
Sadr Dillinger
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#78 - 2015-04-04 07:07:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Sadr Dillinger
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Just my thoughts on this whole deathstar POS debate.

A single un-manned structure should never be a major threat to a prepared opponent. If you want to counter 50 guys hot-dropping your Super Capital in-transit then either prepare better than them, with scouting, planning, timing, or whatever else, or bring 50 or more of your own guys and drop them right back.
That is a pretty terrible straw man fallacy... who said anything about `unmanned' and where did the '50 guys' bit come from?
Cade Windstalker
#79 - 2015-04-04 07:12:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Sadr Dillinger wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Just my thoughts on this whole deathstar POS debate.

A single un-manned structure should never be a major threat to a prepared opponent. If you want to counter 50 guys hot-dropping your Super Capital in-transit then either prepare better than them, with scouting, planning, timing, or whatever else, or bring 50 or more of your own guys and drop them right back.
That is a pretty terrible straw man fallacy... who said anything about `unmanned' and where did the '50 guys' bit come from?


One, that's not a straw-man... two, you're talking about a structure that's apparently able to protect a capital in transit from being hot-dropped. I pulled a moderately sized hot-drop number out of thin air. Really though, if someone wants to drop your capital and you don't have available backup no amount of static defense should save you from the efforts of a large group of players working against you.

Also "Deathstar POS" kind of implies un-manned structure. Sure you can man the POS guns, but if you have enough guys for that you should be cyno-ing in or shipping up backup. Alternatively one guy could man it... but that gets into one person being able to, apparently, fend off a capital hot-drop, and that would be kind of terrible for balance.
Sadr Dillinger
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#80 - 2015-04-04 07:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Sadr Dillinger
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Sadr Dillinger wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Just my thoughts on this whole deathstar POS debate.

A single un-manned structure should never be a major threat to a prepared opponent. If you want to counter 50 guys hot-dropping your Super Capital in-transit then either prepare better than them, with scouting, planning, timing, or whatever else, or bring 50 or more of your own guys and drop them right back.
That is a pretty terrible straw man fallacy... who said anything about `unmanned' and where did the '50 guys' bit come from?


One, that's not a straw-man... two, you're talking about a structure that's apparently able to protect a capital in transit from being hot-dropped. I pulled a moderately sized hot-drop number out of thin air. Really though, if someone wants to drop your capital and you don't have available backup no amount of static defense should save you from the efforts of a large group of players working against you.

Also "Deathstar POS" kind of implies un-manned structure. Sure you can man the POS guns, but if you have enough guys for that you should be cyno-ing in or shipping up backup. Alternatively one guy could man it... but that gets into one person being able to, apparently, fend off a capital hot-drop, and that would be kind of terrible for balance.
One; yes it is, as I've never suggested an unmanned POS (even with my suggested changes, POS 'AI' would still **** away the enhanced DPS...) - that is your logical fallacy. Two; there goes another... I have not proposed, or implied that this is to provide a complete 'safety blanket'.

I'm talking about spreading around the risk:

Scenario:

You're about to move a Super, and you've pre-setup a Deathstar (with the 6 fold increase in damage modifier and 'enhanced' scramblers), with 12 large batteries, i.e roughly equivalent to 3-4 dreads. You've got 12 trusted mates with you, 3 log -off in the POS (each with Starbase Defence Management IV), the other 9 form a fleet with 4 Guardians, 5 armour HICs one system over.

You jump, and you get jumped.....
....you mates log in and dial into the batteries, your mates one system over jump in and spread points around. You die before making it under the shield (too much DPS on the field), but the attacking fleet starts to lose dreads, and a super is pinned down, both by the cycling inifi-scram batteries and HIC's. You bat phone, they bat phone.... #morecontent

Ergo, "spreading the risk around"

Not sure why the concept is difficult, or why this would be viewed with hostility (aside from possibly the *want-an-easy-super-gank* crowd... Big smile)