Player Features and Ideas Discussion

In actuality it is nothing like these at all.

Local provides:
Name, Corp, Alliance.

Which allows for a quick KB search giving
Common ships flown, common ship fittings, associated pilots, content type, associated ships, associated ship fittings.
Corporation operations, alliance operations, common corporation associates, common alliance associates. Areas of Operation.

All stemming from one quick glance at local log. It is the single largest source of intel gathering in the game. Period...and it is entirely free to use.


If you want to get intel on someone, you should have to put in effort to gather it through playing the game or pay either a fee, or for construction/upkeep of a service module, not be handed everything you would ever need to know about an individual, a corporation, or an alliance simply because a name showed up in local.


Local should be removed from all space, and the following should be implemented in replacement.

Empire Space
HS/LS,

NPC corps.
- Local will always be available, depending on standings of the NPC corp and the system owner.
- IE an NPC corp with low Amarr standings will not get local in Amarr NPC space.
Player Corps/Alliance.
- Local will be available for an optional surcharge to the corporation/alliance based on standings with the system owner
- IE Cost will fluctuate, higher standings, lower cost and vice versa. (under a certain point restricts the option)

All FW will be determined by the state of War mechanics. Amarr FW will be restricted from local intel in Minmatar and Gallente space for example, in either Player Owned or NPC militia corps.


NPC NS
Player Corps
- Local will be available for an optional surcharge to the corporation/alliance, based on standings with the system owner
- IE Cost will fluctuate, higher standings, lower cost and vice versa (under a certain point restricts the option)
NPC Corps
- No Local.


SOV NS
A Gate Service (like Station Service) That displays the pilots passing through the gate. Only shown to the corp/alliance owning the service.
- Will display a pilots name in local, or remove a name from local if they pass through the gate
- name persists until leaving system, or logging out. or the service module is offlined.
- will not display names of pilots who log into a system, enter through cyno, or covert cyno.
- Destructible (or w/e you want to call entosis linking ****)

ALL Non-Owners (including Blues)
- No local intel


In all cases talking in local will put you into local intel just like in WH space, where you will remain until leaving the system or logging off.

It sucks because its a bad mechanic. It requires zero effort to obtain, as you note it is given to you as part of the game. Nothing as powerful as local (in null) is handed out in the game to everyone. Its a very powerful method of gathering intel on hostiles. If we were to take two players and task them as follows:

Player 1. Go to an anomaly and start ratting and avoid getting killed.
Player 2. Jump in and try to kill player 1.

Additional assumption: Both players understand the roles of each player.

In this instance Player 2 will very rarely catch Player 1. Player 1 always has the advantage of advanced warning. Even if there is just 1 anomaly in system Player 2 will have plenty of time to escape provided he is at least 3 neurons firing. There are a couple of reasons for this that have been gone over before, but what the heck here they are again.

Player 1 will have at least 1 second (and probably more than 1 second) warning before Player 2 even loads grid.
Player 2 will have to still warp to the anomaly which will again take time.

So, as long as Player 1 is aligned, watching local and not sitting right at the warp in point for the anomaly, then player 1 will escape almost surely.

It also sucks because watching local constantly or even near constantly is boring and enervating and not really playing the game. So yeah, for those few seconds you stop watching to switch to a new target you are "playing the game". The rest of the time you really aren't playing anymore than the schlub watching the gate.

So...your position is that "playing the game" with the local mechanic, which is damn close to measure zero is somehow amazingly different than sitting and watching the game? That teeny tiny bit of "playing the game" and local and the current situation is so awesome we shouldn't come up with a new method/mechanic that can allow for more "playing the game" while still keeping PvE in null viable?

Hmmm...I don't know, I'd like there to be some sort way to subvert this....

How about this:

Local is set to delayed.
The "security probe" is scannable even while cloaked (as are anything that is cloaked).
The security probe has to go on the other side of the gate of the system you are ratting in.
There is a very short delay in the "security probe" reporting the person when they first appear on grid.
The "security probe" can be hacked so that it doesn't send the warning (failure sends and immediate warning and possibly some other adverse consequences for the would be hacker).
Only one can be anchored on gate at a time.

Ancillary changes: Information on NPCs killed are no longer visible via things like dotlan.

Also what kind of information does it give? Pilot name/standings or just ship type? I'm assuming that it is the latter.

Just because you keep repeating it, does not make it come true.
Local is NOT a counter to cloakies, there simply is no counter to cloakies right now. They are completly invulnerable for as long as they wish, and there is absolutly nothing that can be done to make them go away or loose something if they dont wanto to.

Sure it is. Local and d-scan let you know the guy is cloaked and you can modify your behavior accordingly. Move sysems to PvE. PvE in a group, try to bait the cloaker, etc.

How is that relevant to what I said? You basically said that the effect that cloakies have is there because their presence is announced by local. Which means the cloaky works BECAUSE OF local. How is that a contradiction to my statement that local does NOT COUNTER cloakies?



Except for cloakies you mean. They should be completly invulnerable, even when being afk right? They should not have the risk of loosing anything after undocking, even when afk. Is that your opinion?

There are other ways to hurt another player than applying damage, and while it is true that they can not activate any modules, they are not powerless either.

And there is something wrong with afk cloaking since the playstyle is a direct opposite to what CCP wants to promote.

I don't think those that want to see a change to the playstyle have a problem with loosing stuff. I may not like it, but I don't have a problem with it.

I'm speaking only for myself here, but I were never afraid of a name. It was very easy for me to see if the player that entered the system was a friend or a foe. Since I also knew that the easiest way to get into my system was with the use of a cloak, I also knew then that I could not deal with him before he wanted to. My corp would not reimburse ships lost outside of roaming fleets, so monetary wise, it was easier for me to dock up and play with another character till he left.

Looking back on this, there is a mutch easier way to fix this than removing local. And that is to remove the ability to tell if the entering player is a friend or a foe. And by that I mean to remove the visual representation of standings in the local chat.

You can not compare the two systems since they don't have to deal with the same problems. If you want to implement w-space local to k-space local, then gates should act like wormholes, and cyno should be removed form the game.

The use of dscan and probes should also prevent the use of a cloak. So that you yourself should be put at risk if you want to find a target to gank.

If you move to a different system and PvE then you have circumvented the AFK cloakers intent: resrouce/isk denial. If you rat in a group in combat fit ships, you have circumvented the AFK cloakers intent. In short, you have mitigated/negated his strategy. That is all that is needed for something to be a counter. You are being too literal in your interpretation of "counter".

A counter does not have to mean you blow his **** up. It does not mean you have to actively stop him. Merely going on and doing your PvE in another system makes his strategy very much less effective.

As for risk, lets be clear while cloaked that ship/pilot presents zero risk. While AFK that ship/pilot present zero risk. So why should he face risk in that situation? Are you operating under the assumption that risk factors must be equal at all times? If so I got really bad news for you.

Yes, you'll likely say, "Well...I don't know if he is AFK or not." True, he has increased your risk. But there is nothing that says he must also have increased risk. Nothing. This is a game where, by-and-large, risks are wildly different. If you are ratting in your ishtar and a group of 10 guys jump into your ratting system your risk just went way the **** up. They might have a saber sitting on the station with a bubble up and an interceptor or 2 zipping to a couple of anomalies to try and find you. Their risk? Minimal. So the notion that risks must some how be balanced should be tossed in the rubbish bin. So what that an AFK cloaker has pushed up your risk level in a given system? That is NOT CCP's problem. Never has been, never will be.

By the way a few other things you can do...hit the killboards, see when the guy is most active. Find out what you can about his corp/alliance. If for example he is in say, Vancouver and you are in Germany there will be a big swath of time where you can re-evaluate your risk even with him present in system. Risk in this context (AFK cloaking) is subjective. It is based on your beliefs and information (no really, look this **** up, subjective probability). You can do 4 things to change your subjective risk:

1. Change your beliefs.
2. Change your information.
3. Change your behavior.
4. All three.

Hitting killboards, dotlan, looking up information on the guy in game will help you change 2. If you do things like start doing a bit of PvE during your primary hours and note no change in his behavior that is information too. You should be updating and re-evaluating your risk....well assuming you are rational that is what you should be doing. Adding a buddy or 2 while doing PvE will not only alter your risk, but his as well!

Or you could just make a dogmatic assumption: He is out there, he is at his keyboard, and he is moving up on me with some buddies nearby to gank me!

In which case you'll never undock and no amount of additional information will help you.

I believe the following to be true:
The real problem is not cloaking.
Nor is it local.

It is the expectation that a PvE pilot needs to run away, because they cannot win in an encounter.
The perception that the best they can hope for, is to break away and get safe.

If we want to actually resolve this, taking a step back and asking why we are running in the first place, seems to be upstream of all the other details.

PvE pilots are, in many ways, the ideal content generators for conflict.
You have a good idea where to find them.
Other players can fight off the ships too tough for them, leaving just covops for the most part.
They get rewarded even if nothing happens, because they are farming ISK by mining or ratting while they wait for possible encounters. This makes them better play than manning any gate camp!

We are a golden resource, just waiting to be tapped!

Local is the counter to any ambush, cloaky or otherwise. Likewise local allows players to never lose anything by merely keeping an eye on a chat channel. The only thing that can be done to counter local is to appear afk and dull everyone to your presence, which is only practical to do in a cloak.

If you change cloaks and nothing else, you remove the only counter to local. Something that should never happen considering how stupidly safe ratting already is.

Change one, change the other.



If you dont let them appear to be AFK, then you cannot counter local.

local has to go with 100% safety of cloaks.



We have anoms just like you, and not only that, but we have to loot them to get paid. We dont get to warp out and still get paid after running half the site because a gang turns up.

We've been through this already




You're the one asking for changes in only one direction that will massively favour the defender and allow him to evict the cloaker with minimal effort or risk. Everyone has been saying that the current system is balanced, albeit undesirable, and you're saying it needs to be heavily shifted to give the defender even more safety...

We're asking for both to change so effort has to be expended by both sides.

The only ones looking to create bad game design are the ones saying local is fine but cloaks are not.