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CCP Rise newbie stats

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#301 - 2015-04-01 17:01:37 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
A few things bother me about CCP Rise's stats.


You know what bothers me? That heinous **** you said earlier, about how you consider it fine to grief people out of the game by spewing lies and misconceptions about PvP at them the moment you encounter them.

That's about the most toxic mentality I have ever heard of.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#302 - 2015-04-01 17:06:33 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
CCP Rise's stats are interesting, but he may not be looking in the right place to see if there really is a problem.
I would like to know: How many stop playing right after a ship loss?
How many stop playing right after, or during, a prolonged period of war decs?
+1

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#303 - 2015-04-01 17:07:20 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
....More importantly, that is not the game CCP originally conceived of when they designed Eve, nor is a solo PvE missioning game or mining simulator what they are selling the game as. It is a competitive PvP sandbox so of course it makes sense for them to focus on the social (i.e. sandbox) and PvP aspects of the game.

Actually, that is not what CCP says. This is what they say:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldn’t necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take.

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Frozen fanfiction
Ito Eto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#304 - 2015-04-01 17:08:53 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Ito Eto wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
EVE is here so many years later because it is niche and not a WoW clone.
One problem is a lot of devs and players seem to think every MMO should be able to reproduce Blizzard's success. Its the same kind of fallacy that ....
On that note, I often say, "Waste of Web is so popular because it was the first MMO that ran on almost any machine and could be played by any idiot." (It also has a mass that sucks in a lot of innocent people by RL associations)


There was a fair bit of prior art, such as Lineage and Everquest, which Blizzard shamelessly copied. Where, I believe, it got a massive leg up was large fanbase for Warcraft (the RTS) and utilizing familiar, comfortable western folk lore rather than bizzaro Asian folklore that many westerners have no historical memory of, or can't relate to.

"Themepark" "Sandbox", these do not mean what you think they mean, EvE is as on rails as a freight train, and has as many attractions as Disneyland, but soundbites are easy, thinking is not.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#305 - 2015-04-01 17:19:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
A few things bother me about CCP Rise's stats.


You know what bothers me? That heinous **** you said earlier, about how you consider it fine to grief people out of the game by spewing lies and misconceptions about PvP at them the moment you encounter them.

That's about the most toxic mentality I have ever heard of.


Spinning what he said is pretty toxic TBH.

He described a situation that probably happen in game, he didn't say he or anybody was good players for doing so especially if they know they are spreading false information.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#306 - 2015-04-01 17:20:04 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
You can make that argument - if only CCP made the solo PvE experience better more players would stay - but the data do not support that.


So you don't think that the fact that solo PVE players have played every predictable, decade-old mission to death long before they've run out of slots on their Raven for shiny modules is not a factor?

I would argue that it is, but also that it wouldn't be enough. As Rise said in his 2014 presentation, a lot of people take the solo PVE route because it's where the old NPE points them; so in a real way, they're directed into a small and mostly neglected minigame within EVE, rather than being exposed to the game itself. That's a real problem which I'm glad they're tackling.

But even the people who enjoy that minigame are probably long past tired of rescuing the Damsel, yes? And maybe they'd stick around longer if that part of the game didn't top out so quickly, or if the mechanics rewarded fleeting up with other people instead of punishing it.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#307 - 2015-04-01 17:21:14 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
A few things bother me about CCP Rise's stats.


You know what bothers me? That heinous **** you said earlier, about how you consider it fine to grief people out of the game by spewing lies and misconceptions about PvP at them the moment you encounter them.

That's about the most toxic mentality I have ever heard of.

I never said it was fine. I said it happens, and its a problem.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Jenshae Chiroptera
#308 - 2015-04-01 17:26:47 UTC
Ito Eto wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Ito Eto wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
EVE is here so many years later because it is niche and not a WoW clone.
One problem is a lot of devs and players seem to think every MMO should be able to reproduce Blizzard's success. Its the same kind of fallacy that ....
On that note, I often say, "Waste of Web is so popular because it was the first MMO that ran on almost any machine and could be played by any idiot." (It also has a mass that sucks in a lot of innocent people by RL associations)
There was a fair bit of prior art, such as Lineage and Everquest, which Blizzard shamelessly copied. Where, I believe, it got a massive leg up was large fanbase for Warcraft (the RTS) and utilizing familiar, comfortable western folk lore rather than bizzaro Asian folklore that many westerners have no historical memory of, or can't relate to.
The point being that other MMOs existed before WoW but they either weren't so hardware compatible or required some brains to succeed in them.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#309 - 2015-04-01 18:13:45 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
I would like to know: How many stop playing right after a ship loss?
How many stop playing right after, or during, a prolonged period of war decs?

In this same presentation CCP Rise clearly said that less than 1% of players cite ship loss or harassment as their reason for unsubscribing.

You can claim that rage-quitters don't bother telling CCP why they are leaving, but again, the data shows that there is no evidence for the carebear narrative that players are griefed out of the game by gankers or wardeccers. Perhaps CCP Rise or Quant can look deeper into the statistics, or even have done so but not made that information public, but there is no reason to believe that wardecs or gankers are hurting player retention - if anything the data says the opposite is true.

Vincent Athena wrote:
Actually, that is not what CCP says. This is what they say:

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
We often hear "EVE is a PvP game, PvE is secondary". To this we would like to respond that EVE is a sandbox and shouldn’t necessarily favor one side over the other. What you do with it is up to you: all player activities should feel as appealing and rewarding no matter which choice you take.


Actually it is. From the New Pilot FAQ:

CCP wrote:
7 PVP (PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER)
The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment. As has been mentioned in previous sections any player can engage another player at any time...

Of course it is a sandbox and you don't have to seek out PvP, but it is very much a PvP game.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#310 - 2015-04-01 18:18:24 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:

CCP wrote:
7 PVP (PLAYER VERSUS PLAYER)
The essential core concept of EVE Online is that it is full time PvP in a sandbox environment. As has been mentioned in previous sections any player can engage another player at any time...

Of course it is a sandbox and you don't have to seek out PvP, but it is very much a PvP game.


It's a shame that you have to point out that which is obvious. EVE is a sandbox pvp game , it's clear by the way that pvp is possible anytime a player is in space and much of the game's market involves direct competition with other players. I will never understand the denial about this basic truth of EVE Online.

But I guess for some people, when you have a narrative you want to cling to, observable facts are things to be discounted.
Ito Eto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#311 - 2015-04-01 18:33:40 UTC
Well its a sandbox apart from all those rules everywhere, non player modifiable 'World', inability to build anything except built in per-defined modules and ships that have to be fitted in specific ways....

I guess throwing a thin veneer of role-play over your actions might be sufficient, but you might as well run around in Counterstrike pretending to be a Jihadi or a LEO. And no Game of Risk in space doesn't qualify either.

Just because a marketing droid says something, does not make it factually so.

Now Feed The Beast and Minecraft, they are games you can build a 100m long penis in, and therefore qualify as sandbox.

"Themepark" "Sandbox", these do not mean what you think they mean, EvE is as on rails as a freight train, and has as many attractions as Disneyland, but soundbites are easy, thinking is not.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#312 - 2015-04-01 18:36:41 UTC
Ito Eto wrote:
Well its a sandbox apart from all those rules everywhere, non player modifiable 'World', inability to build anything except built in per-defined modules and ships that have to be fitted in specific ways....

I guess throwing a thin veneer of role-play over your actions might be sufficient, but you might as well run around in Counterstrike pretending to be a Jihadi or a LEO. And no Game of Risk in space doesn't qualify either.

Just because a marketing droid says something, does not make it factually so.

Now Feed The Beast and Minecraft, they are games you can build a 100m long ***** in, and therefore qualify as sandbox.


Even Wikipedia knows better than you on this issue.
Ito Eto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#313 - 2015-04-01 18:45:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ito Eto
Free roam or Open world =/= sandbox.

Jump-gates are just glorified loadscreens.
No procedurally generated self extending world.

But lets not derail the thread too much, I just get upset when marketing droids mislabel things. and sad when people buy it.

"Themepark" "Sandbox", these do not mean what you think they mean, EvE is as on rails as a freight train, and has as many attractions as Disneyland, but soundbites are easy, thinking is not.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#314 - 2015-04-01 18:51:52 UTC
Ito Eto wrote:
Free roam or Open world =/= sandbox.

Jump-gates are just glorified loadscreens.
No procedurally generated self extending world.
A true sandbox game would be anarchy, therefore unplayable. That's why sandbox games such as Eve have certain rules.

Also jump gates are there, to allow the game to run on a single shard.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#315 - 2015-04-01 18:54:12 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
I would like to know: How many stop playing right after a ship loss?
How many stop playing right after, or during, a prolonged period of war decs?

In this same presentation CCP Rise clearly said that less than 1% of players cite ship loss or harassment as their reason for unsubscribing.
Again. This is within a very narrow 15 days scope.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Ito Eto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#316 - 2015-04-01 19:01:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ito Eto
Mag's wrote:
Ito Eto wrote:
Free roam or Open world =/= sandbox.

Jump-gates are just glorified loadscreens.
No procedurally generated self extending world.
A true sandbox game would be anarchy, therefore unplayable. That's why sandbox games such as Eve have certain rules.

Also jump gates are there, to allow the game to run on a single shard.

Exactly my point.

Afaik the only known Sandbox MMO is Second life, and then as you point out, only to a certain degree. As someone who currently admins a FTB server, it is pretty much anarchy unless you white-list the logins to trusted players, or lock all the nuclear weapons and magic down with scripts, and thus remove the sandbox.

The acid test of a sandbox game:-
Can you build a 100m long c@ck (preferably flying with lasers on it). Cue Thorax gifs.

"Themepark" "Sandbox", these do not mean what you think they mean, EvE is as on rails as a freight train, and has as many attractions as Disneyland, but soundbites are easy, thinking is not.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#317 - 2015-04-01 19:09:32 UTC
Ito Eto wrote:
... the only known Sandbox MMO is Second life ...
MMO is short for MMOG Massive Multiplayer Online Game.
Games have measure of successes, in EVE how big an empire you build, ISK you collect, ships you fly well, kills you gather, etc.

Second Life has no objective that the player does not set for themselves and thus, it is a virtual world with games in it.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#318 - 2015-04-01 19:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
I would like to know: How many stop playing right after a ship loss?
How many stop playing right after, or during, a prolonged period of war decs?

In this same presentation CCP Rise clearly said that less than 1% of players cite ship loss or harassment as their reason for unsubscribing.
Again. This is within a very narrow 15 days scope.


And what scope is the information you have that goes counter to what Rise said?

You know that's a rhetorical question, for it simply points out that while the information we have is in some ways incomplete, it's infinitely more complete than the non-Data that many of you have formed your opinions around. It's like some religious person telling a scientist "your data on evolution is incomplete" while not understanding that they themselves have zero data.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#319 - 2015-04-01 19:32:00 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Blah.
There is data, which can be turned into information and there is propeganda. Guess which one you are clutching to your breast and screaming that it is the truth? P

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#320 - 2015-04-01 19:33:06 UTC
are we assuming that ccp only looked at fifteen days and never thought of looking at a longer period of time

or are we assuming that ccp looked at a longer period of time, saw data that disagreed with what they saw in fifteen days and decided to present the fifteen day data at fanfest anyway

"after having redefined sandbox contrary to the popular understanding of the word, i find eve is not a sandbox"