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Remove/Limit Oversized Prop Mods

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Solj RichPopolous
Silent Havok.
H A R D L I N E R S
#41 - 2015-03-31 16:53:04 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Something I think is high time to have happen with all the BS that's been going on in the kite meta is to limit AB and MWD to respective weight classes. Noncombat haulers and mining boats would function as they do currently.

-1mn ab and mwd apply to frigs and destroyer-sized ships only

-10mn ab and mwd apply to cruisers and battlecruiser-sized ships only

-100mn ab and mwd apply to battleship-sized ships only.


A tweak that might also help mitigate the fallout from this somewhat is with the coming prop mod tiercide, increase the base thrust/speed of t2 and faction prop mods to offset it somewhat. Have Deadspace mods focus more on sig reduction and cap conservation, and have faction/storyline focus on comfortable fitting and performance.

No more 10mn ab destroyers, or 100mn cruisers. Bring sig tanking and mobility back to a sane place, please.

EDIT: Alternate proposal for you sandbox-centered folks here...why not just double the PG fitting costs on 10mn and 100mn? Discuss!


Lol no. It adds flavor to the game and lets you out smart the blob. They aren't even hard to kill if you have half a brain, we do it all the time. Same size ABs are a joke and thats before a web is applied and MWDs are just lols with the dominance of the scram and sig blooming.

This game turns into a hard lock down dog pile way too often. Get some brains and some skills to kill things that aren't going 2m/s
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#42 - 2015-03-31 19:13:10 UTC
afkalt wrote:

Calls people "carebears"

Has clearly NEVER shot at a 10mn AB T3 destroyer, EVER.

Hint: It has the sig between that of a hobgoblin (with links) and an interceptor (no links) with no prop mod running but the confessor does nearly 2km/s (>4km/s if it decides to gtfo of dodge) which wont stop with a scram. Oh and LOTS of DPS to boot.


__________________

There is not a general issue with oversized mods, certain hulls just take them far too far.

Besides, I like my 100mn stabber.

I admit I'm a forums alt, I get 2-3 evemails related to forums trades per day and I only use forums on this character.

Why? Because getting evemails ingame is slightly irritating when they aren't related to what I'm doing.

People complain about us but it's just that some people like to have things boxed.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2015-03-31 19:24:08 UTC
Nothing wrong with alts (be hypocritical to state otherwise), its just its clear you've not engaged the ships under discussion is all. They're obscene. And sure, I could use a double rigor II cerb....but that's just a little bit ridiculous for what I'm shooting at.
thatonepersone
Black Jack 0-1
#44 - 2015-03-31 20:54:58 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
So basically what you carebears want is eve where everyone can avoid being in pvp forever with the nerfs of wardecs awoxing ganking and just about everything else as well.

BUT

If someone somehow manages to agree to pvp they aren't allowed to run away?
They should stay immobile and get shot by you?

X
Go to hell.



Calls people "carebears"

Has clearly NEVER shot at a 10mn AB T3 destroyer, EVER.

Hint: It has the sig between that of a hobgoblin (with links) and an interceptor (no links) with no prop mod running but the confessor does nearly 2km/s (>4km/s if it decides to gtfo of dodge) which wont stop with a scram. Oh and LOTS of DPS to boot.


__________________

There is not a general issue with oversized mods, certain hulls just take them far too far.

Besides, I like my 100mn stabber.


A 10mn ab t3 goes significantly slower using a 10mn ab than a 1mn mwd and uses over half it's pg. If you use a 10mn mwd you ate using about 2x the base pg of the ship if all your skills are at 5. That means you have to use all of your low slots for reactor controls, or a mix if lows and rigs.

Instead of asking for nerfs, players should find the easy, low cost counters. If you can not figure it out, continue to undock in slow, low utility short range ships for your opponents to widdle away at until you run out of isk and have to go back to high sec mining.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#45 - 2015-03-31 21:09:59 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Am I getting this?

The new T3 destroyers are too good w/ oversized prop mods, so the OP is calling for a nerf.... well just plain not allowing.... oversized prop mods across the board?

Overall I'd say oversized prop mods are OK on t1 and t2 ships. It starts to get a bit silly when you put them on t3 cruisers. It gets really silly w/ t3 destroyers? Is that about right?

I think the incoming rebalanceing of t3 cruises will (hoping hoping hoping) adjust oversized AB stuff.

I haven't taken the time yet to mess around w/ the t3 destroyers so I'll break w/ this forums tradition and remain silent on something I don't know about.

OK, maybe just a little. I'm hearing that the t3 destroyers are quite nasty. I think if CCP keeps their max DPS down to reasonable numbers (that's reduce ship damage based on it's high versatility) then they will be OK long term. For now, keep buying them hand over fist to keep my profit margins up. (if you want to buy them direct, then contact me in game)

I'm calling for a nerf on the prop mod fitting BECAUSE I don't want to see any of the ships, including d3s, to get the nerf hammer for exploiting something that has little to do with the hull itself.

I like destroyers quite a bit, but they're abusing this mechanic pretty heavily. I'd rather not see them or t3 cruisers get their fitting or mobility nerfed because of this, as well as my sentiment that oversized AB is broken as a tactic anyway, and should be fixed.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#46 - 2015-03-31 21:12:15 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Ok, here's an alternate proposal to outright banning them from size usage...why not simply double the powergrid usage of 10m and 100mn afterburners? They'd be easier to fit than mwd, and it'd solve the problem with them being exploited on ships smaller than their intended fitting.


but now you are hurting cruiser and BS fits some of which cut it close with less than 1PG left over as is


10mn afterburners are incredibly easy to fit compared to 10mn mwd. Having them be at 100 pg without a cpu increase would change virtually nothing with how people fly them, especially how favored mwd is on cruiser fits anyway.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2015-03-31 21:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
thatonepersone wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
So basically what you carebears want is eve where everyone can avoid being in pvp forever with the nerfs of wardecs awoxing ganking and just about everything else as well.

BUT

If someone somehow manages to agree to pvp they aren't allowed to run away?
They should stay immobile and get shot by you?

X
Go to hell.



Calls people "carebears"

Has clearly NEVER shot at a 10mn AB T3 destroyer, EVER.

Hint: It has the sig between that of a hobgoblin (with links) and an interceptor (no links) with no prop mod running but the confessor does nearly 2km/s (>4km/s if it decides to gtfo of dodge) which wont stop with a scram. Oh and LOTS of DPS to boot.


__________________

There is not a general issue with oversized mods, certain hulls just take them far too far.

Besides, I like my 100mn stabber.


A 10mn ab t3 goes significantly slower using a 10mn ab than a 1mn mwd and uses over half it's pg. If you use a 10mn mwd you ate using about 2x the base pg of the ship if all your skills are at 5. That means you have to use all of your low slots for reactor controls, or a mix if lows and rigs.

Instead of asking for nerfs, players should find the easy, low cost counters. If you can not figure it out, continue to undock in slow, low utility short range ships for your opponents to widdle away at until you run out of isk and have to go back to high sec mining.



Tell me more of these fitting limitied ships....


[Confessor, Sigh]
Internal Force Field Array I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Small Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste

Federation Navy 10MN Afterburner
Warp Disruptor II
Stasis Webifier II

Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
[empty high slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II
Small Energy Locus Coordinator II


Change out of 100m isk. Meta AB (so change from 60m isk) instead of faction and the difference in speed is ~1%. The difference in sig is ~600% and faction AB is FASTER than 1mn MWD... get the point?
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#48 - 2015-03-31 22:45:42 UTC
Oversized prop mods were not a problem until D3s. Don't touch prop mods. Delete D3s. They were a terrible idea.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#49 - 2015-04-01 02:09:08 UTC
afkalt wrote:


Change out of 100m isk. Meta AB (so change from 60m isk) instead of faction and the difference in speed is ~1%. The difference in sig is ~600% and faction AB is FASTER than 1mn MWD... get the point?



have to add lower activation cost on the AB too. Breaks down to cap war every little gJ saved counts.


Quote:
Oversized prop mods were not a problem until D3s. Don't touch prop mods. Delete D3s. They were a terrible idea.


they have been, in mine and others opinion, a major source of strat cruiser hate as well. It's why for example tengu is so hated. CCP keeps on missing the mark here. It was snipe 100mn HML...ccp nerfed HML. Still LR or go hams. then people said well lets try hybrids again. 100mn ab gives nice sig bloom free speed boosts to get range control here as well. Then ccp buffed then nerfed medium hybrids....

So basically in tengu ccp has tried several weapons nerfs...tengu still hated. What has been constant the whole time? 100mn AB is one answer. Other strat cruisers in the same lot.

Some pirates can become an issue as well. These have been masked for a while since pirate frigs have been kind of meh. They got buffed. And at least with worm some said lets give it a go again. Mentioned earlier it can get results. you don't care about speed throwing off weapons tracking. Why I like it...I don't think about prop mod pulsing beyond not losing my point on target. I am not going slow down jackass...you are td'ing yourself with max speed dicking up the tracking.


Why grand scheme I see the oversized needing to go. With tengu above ccp has nerfed everything but what I feel is the root of the problem. As with other strat cruisers. And one day when they get to tact. dessie they will nerf everything else but the prop mod too.

I'd rather keep all that other stuff in place and just slow these things the hell down. Or have to run their rated mwd's to get that speed. I know in my snipe/kite fits if mwd I am most exposed on my mwd pulsing. Its a few seconds where my sig goes to crap. Missiles say oooh, damage calc loves sig radius. Gun tracking says I see you better now.

I don't get this with oversized AB. I adjust/control range and no sig bloom. That small window of pain if target gets some lucky shots in is not there. Or damage less if they do hit.

Basically I am choosing the nerf I'd want (I abuse oversized, won't lie about it). I don't want my weapons or tank touched. Or if touched not castrated. having to run the proper prop mod for my ship in my view the lesser of many evils I see if/when ccp rebalances t3.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#50 - 2015-04-01 02:12:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Otherwise known as the "I really hate the new T3 Tactical Destroyers" thread.
In fairness, the T3 Destroyers could have their power grids scaled back a bit. 10MN afterburners are realistic, but 10MN microwarpdrives are just a tad excessive.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#51 - 2015-04-01 02:16:17 UTC
Solj RichPopolous wrote:


Lol no. It adds flavor to the game and lets you out smart the blob. They aren't even hard to kill if you have half a brain, we do it all the time. Same size ABs are a joke and thats before a web is applied and MWDs are just lols with the dominance of the scram and sig blooming.

This game turns into a hard lock down dog pile way too often. Get some brains and some skills to kill things that aren't going 2m/s


There's nothing that prevents blobs from using oversize prop mods. It's the standard newbie fit on a wide range of ships employed by HERO. That isn't to say that they are effective, only that it is popular because of the obvious advantages it offers. Use of oversize modules doesn't make anyone "get gud."

In PVE, it enables vexors with low sp pilots to run 10/10 DED sites mostly afk. In PVP, it blurs or breaks class roles, especially between HACs and BS.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#52 - 2015-04-01 03:23:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Otherwise known as the "I really hate the new T3 Tactical Destroyers" thread.
In fairness, the T3 Destroyers could have their power grids scaled back a bit. 10MN afterburners are realistic, but 10MN microwarpdrives are just a tad excessive.



Not all haterz need to be shown where on the doll the t3 dessie touched them. I know many who run them and are already waiting for the nerf to come. CCP gave them an op present. Ride that wave till it crashed.


Thing is with them they know how good it is. Why they run it...When its the new black and works it be folly to say nah won't touch it.

These were also the people who also ran other ccp you need to fix these rides in the past. dual neut o cane, dramiel in its original configuration....They were also the abusers of fun nano-rides in the past pre-nano nerf. CCP gives outs presents, take em till they take it away. Basically ccp is making yet another ship and or fitting tactic that leaves little option but to fly it.


Last one quite funny actually. What got nano skylined? and fixed? Ships not meant to be really fast (with little to no effort) were doing quite the opposite. CCP repeating some more ugly history here potentially. As we know from those times the nano supporters living in delusion ville and saw nothing wrong with it also said duh...learn to counter us. Counter was more nano. And there was crap like cruisers zooming around at insane speeds becoming the norm. Oddly enough ccp saw this trend and fixed what was obviously off kilter...the nano.

Why I wait with anticipation for the last 2 ships. The learn to counter us argument will get fun here as a whole class goes to utter crap and spills over to other classes. Depending on what gallente and caldari get....some fun times ahead really.



edit: I can also point out ccp is well aware of this problem already and is just avoiding it. CCP long ago for AF's missing bonus had on the test servers a bonus to AB us. What killed it? 10mn spam on the test servers.It smoked inties off the line and they saw nothing but tailiights the rest of the quarter mile lol. Why AF got the recycled mwd bloom reduction bonus. It got AF the speed it needed if mwd fit. Oversized fitting abuse killed that in testing. my hate of oversized goes back many years basically....I wanted the test AB bonus on my AF's.
Auduin Samson
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2015-04-01 05:46:14 UTC
Frigates with cruiser sized tanks lose DPS to fit that tank. Cruisers with 100MN ABs often lose tank to fit that speed. Everything is a tradeoff. Basically:

High Speed
High DPS
Big Tank

Pick two.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#54 - 2015-04-01 06:30:50 UTC
Auduin Samson wrote:
Frigates with cruiser sized tanks lose DPS to fit that tank. Cruisers with 100MN ABs often lose tank to fit that speed. Everything is a tradeoff. Basically:

High Speed
High DPS
Big Tank

Pick two.

I think T3 Destroyers get to pick all 3.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Tusker Crazinski
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2015-04-01 19:14:00 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
afkalt wrote:


Change out of 100m isk. Meta AB (so change from 60m isk) instead of faction and the difference in speed is ~1%. The difference in sig is ~600% and faction AB is FASTER than 1mn MWD... get the point?



have to add lower activation cost on the AB too. Breaks down to cap war every little gJ saved counts.


Quote:
Oversized prop mods were not a problem until D3s. Don't touch prop mods. Delete D3s. They were a terrible idea.


they have been, in mine and others opinion, a major source of strat cruiser hate as well. It's why for example tengu is so hated. CCP keeps on missing the mark here. It was snipe 100mn HML...ccp nerfed HML. Still LR or go hams.


granted T3s are absolute bullshit, now as far as T1 and T2 (NOT DRONE BASED) cruisers go, I can't think of many that can effectively fit 100 without sacrificing everything else.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2015-04-01 19:16:23 UTC
Tusker Crazinski wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
afkalt wrote:


Change out of 100m isk. Meta AB (so change from 60m isk) instead of faction and the difference in speed is ~1%. The difference in sig is ~600% and faction AB is FASTER than 1mn MWD... get the point?



have to add lower activation cost on the AB too. Breaks down to cap war every little gJ saved counts.


Quote:
Oversized prop mods were not a problem until D3s. Don't touch prop mods. Delete D3s. They were a terrible idea.


they have been, in mine and others opinion, a major source of strat cruiser hate as well. It's why for example tengu is so hated. CCP keeps on missing the mark here. It was snipe 100mn HML...ccp nerfed HML. Still LR or go hams.


granted T3s are absolute bullshit, now as far as T1 and T2 (NOT DRONE BASED) cruisers go, I can't think of many that can effectively fit 100 without sacrificing everything else.



I'd agree with that (the exception that springs to mind is the bloody ishtar.....for a switch)
Iain Cariaba
#57 - 2015-04-01 20:30:18 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Well over 300 with beams, room for web & AAR on top of >5k ehp which given the damage mitigation is a lot.

Same with pulses if you're so inclined but more damage and better tanking.



Ed: the caldari one will be the worst offender though, it's going to be stupid.

Sooo... if you put a 10mn ab onto a confessor you limit it to frigate numbers. This is a bad thing how?

Yes, I get 300dps and 5k ehp+AAR out of t1 frigs.
Leto Aramaus
Frog Team Four
Of Essence
#58 - 2015-04-01 21:50:58 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:


Yes, I get 300dps and 5k ehp+AAR out of t1 frigs.


Fits or it didn't happen.

The UI update we deserve
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2015-04-01 23:24:54 UTC
yes, lets remove the ability to fit oversized mods, hell, elts remove the ability to fit ANY mods "not supported" by the hull, amarr ships will not be able to fit ANY weapons except lasers and neuts, no defenses but armor mods, gallente can only fit blasters and reppers/resists, caldari can only fit shield [because obviously the armor drake is unintended and needs to be removed to protect the game!)

why its all so obvious, players should only be allowed to submit fits to CCP, and then only fit the ones pre-approved as acceptable, that will solve all our problems!
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#60 - 2015-04-01 23:51:40 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
yes, lets remove the ability to fit oversized mods, hell, elts remove the ability to fit ANY mods "not supported" by the hull, amarr ships will not be able to fit ANY weapons except lasers and neuts, no defenses but armor mods, gallente can only fit blasters and reppers/resists, caldari can only fit shield [because obviously the armor drake is unintended and needs to be removed to protect the game!)

why its all so obvious, players should only be allowed to submit fits to CCP, and then only fit the ones pre-approved as acceptable, that will solve all our problems!

The slippery slope argument is a very bad one to make in any context. The point here is that benefits and drawbacks for fitting oversized afterburners are skewed badly, and throw more gasoline on the fire that is the overpowering kite meta in this game.