These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Amarr Ship Designs: Intolerable Warp Core Resonations

Author
Sinjin Mokk
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2015-03-28 16:13:22 UTC
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:

I use Artillary and autocannons to disable ships before I board them.



Maybe you'd have better luck opening the hatch and throwing spears at them?

Slugthrowers? Really?

And you call yourself Amarr...

"Angels live, they never die, Apart from us, behind the sky. They're fading souls who've turned to ice, So ashen white in paradise."

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2015-03-28 16:46:37 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:

I use Artillary and autocannons to disable ships before I board them.



Maybe you'd have better luck opening the hatch and throwing spears at them?

Slugthrowers? Really?

And you call yourself Amarr...


Oi! We no longer fire solid slugs (unless you are talking Titanium Sabot, which are supposed to pierce armour)! It's more exotic stuff now, phased plasma, nuclear fusion, contained EM charges, etc etc. these days.

Though seriously, the modern shipboard projectile weapon isn't a really good option for disabling ships. Most of the time you leave very little to board once you are done.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#43 - 2015-03-28 19:18:34 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:

I use Artillary and autocannons to disable ships before I board them.



Maybe you'd have better luck opening the hatch and throwing spears at them?

Slugthrowers? Really?

And you call yourself Amarr...


Oi! We no longer fire solid slugs (unless you are talking Titanium Sabot, which are supposed to pierce armour)! It's more exotic stuff now, phased plasma, nuclear fusion, contained EM charges, etc etc. these days.

Though seriously, the modern shipboard projectile weapon isn't a really good option for disabling ships. Most of the time you leave very little to board once you are done.


I'm a sharp shooter mate. I hit the spot and board the pot. I don't shoot to slave I shoot to save. Then I sell the musical grave to a musician who can pay.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2015-03-29 04:34:44 UTC
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:

I use Artillary and autocannons to disable ships before I board them.



Maybe you'd have better luck opening the hatch and throwing spears at them?

Slugthrowers? Really?

And you call yourself Amarr...


Oi! We no longer fire solid slugs (unless you are talking Titanium Sabot, which are supposed to pierce armour)! It's more exotic stuff now, phased plasma, nuclear fusion, contained EM charges, etc etc. these days.

Though seriously, the modern shipboard projectile weapon isn't a really good option for disabling ships. Most of the time you leave very little to board once you are done.


I'm a sharp shooter mate. I hit the spot and board the pot. I don't shoot to slave I shoot to save. Then I sell the musical grave to a musician who can pay.


And you forgot that 5000m is still a very, very long distance that will give trouble to even the most accurate sharpshooter to land a headshot.

Also, our projectile weapons do not leave clean little holes. All, except Titanium Sabot, explode upon impact. Some explode after a delay (especially the case with Fusion rounds). A 125mm Barrage round leaves less of a hole and more of a torn-up breach to multiple decks. 125mm is also the bare minimum to be considered 'orbital bombardment grade'. After hammering that many rounds into a target to tear through the shields and to pound the armour and to eat into the hull, do you seriously think there would be much left to board at all? You will need a salvager to get anything useful out of it. Let's not start with the much larger rounds.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#45 - 2015-03-29 05:04:07 UTC
There's some pretty amazing whiskey coming from the Thukker caravans roaming the Great Wildlands. I also rate the ales that come from Mikramurka as some of the best I've tasted. For wines I stick with the old chateau vintages of Caille.

Make fun of projectile weapons all you like but they're still very efficient and quite effective. The bigger the hole the better as far as I'm concerned. Also, there's a lot to be said for the ability to continue fighting after having one's capacitor neutralized.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2015-03-29 05:11:08 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
There's some pretty amazing whiskey coming from the Thukker caravans roaming the Great Wildlands. I also rate the ales that come from Mikramurka as some of the best I've tasted. For wines I stick with the old chateau vintages of Caille.

Make fun of projectile weapons all you like but they're still very efficient and quite effective. The bigger the hole the better as far as I'm concerned. Also, there's a lot to be said for the ability to continue fighting after having one's capacitor neutralized.


As I mentioned, the modern shipboard projectile weapons are great for simply shredding targets down to size but are terrible if one plans to board that ship afterwards.

Lasers are much better options for boarding considering that they do not pierce the hull and cut into the interior per shot. Nothing beats energy neutralizers with ECM support if one plans to actually board the ship though.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2015-03-29 05:47:11 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
There's some pretty amazing whiskey coming from the Thukker caravans roaming the Great Wildlands. I also rate the ales that come from Mikramurka as some of the best I've tasted. For wines I stick with the old chateau vintages of Caille.

Make fun of projectile weapons all you like but they're still very efficient and quite effective. The bigger the hole the better as far as I'm concerned. Also, there's a lot to be said for the ability to continue fighting after having one's capacitor neutralized.


And for those who like to do all that at very long ranges there's your friend the humble missile.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2015-03-29 08:31:43 UTC
Projectile chemical weapons are often underestimated due to their ancestors being what they were : slugthrowers. However considering the speed alone at which projectiles are sent, which makes them almost as instantaneous than railguns or lasers (at least on a scale that counts on a battlefield), hint to a lot more advanced weaponry than just slugthrowers.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-03-29 12:26:34 UTC
Modern projectile guns project a microwarp tunnel. The field collapses just short of the target so as to allow the round to actually hit rather than just phasing through the matter of its intended victim. That and the turret aiming array account for pretty much all of the power draw on those things. Without the microwap field those guns would have hardly any power draw at all, but they'd also have an effective range of... oh, about ten kilometers at the most? Against large and slow targets?

Then there's the sheer flexibility of projectile ammo. frankly, that's an area that's not properly been explored yet. Sure, mixing it up with EMP, phased plasma, or just good old-fashioned morphite-enriched nuclear fission is all well and good, but some of the larger calibers are so big you could do damn near anything with them. How about... CRU rounds full of combat clones? Interdiction field rounds that clamp onto the hull? Grey goo rounds full of Ravager nanites?

Given the comparatively slow speeds these things move at in real terms, inertial stabilizers would more than do the job of keeping such specialist ammunition intact.

Claiming that projectile weaponry is "primitive" and "useless" betrays a terminal shortcoming in both imagination and in powers of observation.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#50 - 2015-03-29 16:44:43 UTC
I wonder where you saw that projectile tech uses what... ? Microwarp fields ?

You are aware that warp or microwarp fields necessitate capacitor energy, right ?
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-03-31 13:45:07 UTC
what do you think all that powergrid draw is going on, the loading mechanism?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2015-03-31 15:06:21 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
what do you think all that powergrid draw is going on, the loading mechanism?


Shell auto-loaders, mag-lock clamps, in-built gyrostabilizers, recoil compensators, case-ejectors, conveyors mechanisms, magazine loaders, revolving motors, built-in tracking computers, coolant ejectors, etc etc etc. All these run on continuous power. Each and every one of these turrets is capable of leading targets individually, and each and every one of them fire their payload with enough force to propel them towards their targets at sublight speed, which is why it seemed as though the damage is instantaneously applied, assuming a confirmed hit.

None of these are perfect, hence the terrible optimal range of autocannons and the relatively short optimals of artilleries compared to the other long-range options.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#53 - 2015-03-31 15:30:41 UTC
Quote:
Shell auto-loaders, mag-lock clamps, in-built gyrostabilizers, recoil compensators, case-ejectors, conveyors mechanisms, magazine loaders, revolving motors, built-in tracking computers, coolant ejectors, etc etc etc.


If all of those combined require even a single megawatt, let alone the kind of draw that is actually siphoned into a ship's gun, then the Matari reputation for engineering genius may be a touch overrated.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#54 - 2015-03-31 16:21:07 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Quote:
Shell auto-loaders, mag-lock clamps, in-built gyrostabilizers, recoil compensators, case-ejectors, conveyors mechanisms, magazine loaders, revolving motors, built-in tracking computers, coolant ejectors, etc etc etc.


If all of those combined require even a single megawatt, let alone the kind of draw that is actually siphoned into a ship's gun, then the Matari reputation for engineering genius may be a touch overrated.


"capacitor is empty."
rattatat
"capacitor is empty."
rattattatat

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#55 - 2015-03-31 17:27:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Stitcher wrote:
Quote:
Shell auto-loaders, mag-lock clamps, in-built gyrostabilizers, recoil compensators, case-ejectors, conveyors mechanisms, magazine loaders, revolving motors, built-in tracking computers, coolant ejectors, etc etc etc.


If all of those combined require even a single megawatt, let alone the kind of draw that is actually siphoned into a ship's gun, then the Matari reputation for engineering genius may be a touch overrated.


You will be surprised how much power all the mechanical parts consume. Especially the mag-clamps and the magnetically-driven chambering mechanisms. Our turrets are very, very heavily mechanized. Do not underestimate the power draw of a fully mechanized weapons system, especially semi-intelligent mechanized weapons systems that can track targets independently and perform ballistic calculations, with much help from the capsuleer's own brain power, autonomously.

Remember, when you are fitting a gun turret on a ship, you are not just clamping turrets onto the hard points, you are also fitting the entire gunnery deck with support machinery specialized for this particular turret. All of that consumes alot of power. That's why it's called 'high slot'.

If we were projecting microwarp tunnels with our turrets our turrets would be drawing capacitor.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#56 - 2015-03-31 19:19:57 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
what do you think all that powergrid draw is going on, the loading mechanism?


Then powergrid systems and not capacitor energy would be used for warp and microwarp operations.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#57 - 2015-04-01 00:40:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Energy is Energy. Doesn't matter if it comes from the cap or the powergrid, it's all the same.

Stop allowing MWD modules that are used to shunt whole starships around to confuse you. There's nothing magic about warp fields which states that the energy HAS to come from a capacitor, that's just how it works in the specific case of starship MWDs because that's the most practical way to hold some power in reserve and apply it when needed.

When you get down to it, the energy stored in your capacitor and the energy flowing through your powergrid are exactly the same thing. The cap is just a means of storing energy and rapidly releasing it on demand, it's not a different category of thing.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2015-04-01 01:43:03 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Energy is Energy. Doesn't matter if it comes from the cap or the powergrid, it's all the same.

Stop allowing MWD modules that are used to shunt whole starships around to confuse you. There's nothing magic about warp fields which states that the energy HAS to come from a capacitor, that's just how it works in the specific case of starship MWDs because that's the most practical way to hold some power in reserve and apply it when needed.

When you get down to it, the energy stored in your capacitor and the energy flowing through your powergrid are exactly the same thing. The cap is just a means of storing energy and rapidly releasing it on demand, it's not a different category of thing.


Capacitor and powergrid energy is the same, but the utilisation of said energy is different. There is a good reason why laser turrets and hybrid blasters do not run on continuous power. It's just plain inefficient.

The projection of microwarp tunnels requires the use of energy in BURSTS, and will necessitate the use of the capacitor. Using that energy continuously is inefficient and is also bad design. If you do not need all that excess energy when the turrets are at rest, you are better off just storing it in the capacitor for future use.

The reason why the turrets use alot of continuous energy is, as I mentioned already, partly due to the high degree of mechanization of the turrets and the support machinery and also the amount of horsepower needed to turn the turret fast enough to track a fast moving target flying at the speed of, say, 900m/s, at 500m. Especially a turret that weights 500kg (125mm gatling autocannons) not including support structures in the mounts to prevent the turret from ripping itself off said mounts due to the recoil caused by firing a shell the length of your forearm with enough power to propel them at sublight speed!

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#59 - 2015-04-01 02:19:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
Pick up any piece of cheap store-brought consumer electronics and you'll be holding an item which itself contains at least one capacitor. A capacitor is nothing ore or less than a device for storing charge and releasing it when needed.

Starships don't contain one capacitor, they contain thousands. As do lasers, railguns, blasters and, yes, autocannons and howitzers.

Meanwhile, here is a piece of news for you: it is not physically possible to propel a round to anything remotely resembling a relativistic speed using chemical propellant alone, no matter how efficient the burn or the shape of the chamber. I won't go into the full detail of compressible flow here, but suffice it to say that the maximum velocity of a gas is given by the following equation:[link]

Where cp is the specific heat of the gas and Tt is the stagnation temperature of the flow.

Obviously, a projectile cannot reach a speed higher than that of the expanding gas which is accelerating it. Which means that, if we left it to pure chemistry, this equation would put a hard cap on projectile muzzle velocities which would make them utterly useless for ship-to-ship combat at anything but the most extreme close-range.

Getting those rounds out to hundreds of Km and scoring an effectively immediate hit requires the intervention of a technological solution. Without it, howitzer rounds would move slower than missiles, without the benefit of on-board guidance.

That solution is microwarp fields. I don't know why you're so hung up on insisting that the power for this MUST come from the ship's capacitor, or that the gun itself is not capable of housing its own capacitor systems to provide the necessary timed discharge. As I said, energy is energy. So long as it produces the goods, does it really matter where, how and through what circuits that energy is channeled?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#60 - 2015-04-01 02:38:27 UTC
You have all been lied to. Our artillery shells are lobbed down range by Brutor tribesmen, and the auto cannons have children in them doing the same.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.