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Is EVE too "progression based" and not "skill based" enough?
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DrunkenNinja
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#1 - 2011-12-24 11:24:45 UTC
And when I say progression based, I mean, you spend X hours doing something, gain in game resources, and this helps you in later situations (mmorpgs like WoW are heavily progression based).

Do the successful alliances and players in this game simply put in huge amounts of time and effort?
Or are they in fact much more skilled than the lesser groups/players?

In real life, if you are good at something (whether it be skill as a painter/musician/whatever) you can get somewhere.
Is this the same as in EVE? Or is EVE more of a pen and paper style "roleplay, grind and progress" game.

Reducing this to its base level, is the combat in EVE skill based or progression based? Progression based. Doesn't take a whole lot of skill or intelligence to click the lock button, activate modules and orbit, does it?

Your thoughts?
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#2 - 2011-12-24 11:26:38 UTC
Solo/Small gang is heavily skill based.

Fleet is progression based.

And by skill I mean player skill not SP

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
Zach Donnell
Ghost-Busters
#3 - 2011-12-24 11:32:40 UTC
As fleet count goes up, the importance of individual skill goes down. This is very simple, and how *most* of eve pvp works.

Consequently why a few of us crazies prefer solo/very small gang Cool
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#4 - 2011-12-24 11:34:39 UTC
Being good at the game is skill based. Achieving anything in the game is progression based.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Gripen
#5 - 2011-12-24 12:00:44 UTC
There is some skill involved in flying logistic ships, EW ships and interdictors as they are usually pick their target by themselves but otherwise - no. For gang leaders and solo pilots skill required for choosing fights and advantageous positions pre fight but once shooting starts it's all about mechanical actions.

It's sad to see that nothing is being done to increase personal skill requirements in EVE combat model. It looks especially weird when CCP Soundwave, chief game designer (iirc), is a big fan of Dota-like game.
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#6 - 2011-12-24 12:05:34 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Being good at the game is skill based. Achieving anything in the game is progression based.



I was going to say something similar, it takes knowledge and intelligence to make good decisions, it usually takes skills and isk to follow them through.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Long John Silver
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-12-24 12:09:28 UTC
If I recall correctly, back in 2003 your skills did improve the more you used them. eg: Use medium artillery weps a lot, and your medium projectile wep skill slowly increased.

I think it was one of the first things to get hit with the nerf bat though.

**Long John Silver **| Pirate Alt and Forum Troll.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-12-24 12:13:02 UTC
eve is very very skill based. Think about it, in most cases, in the end, your ship will only ever be 25% better than a new player.

And that's assuming you're all at level 5 everything and they are level 1.

So think about that for a moment. Other than money, which is the real drive in eve, skills only unlock equipment. You're going to win a fight you would of lost magically by gaining a 5% increase in rof. Seriously.

I'd say the issue is the game itself is not explained correctly to new players. Eve is so different it needs a real new game expreince

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg
Valei Khurelem
#9 - 2011-12-24 12:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
I don't get why people can't understand this, he isn't talking about those skills you train as in LEVELS he's talking about things like on FPS' where you actually have to aim in order to fire at something or in puzzles you have to figure out the right pattern to get past a certain point in the game or how you have to jump over a flaming pit to get out of an area.

There's none of this in MMORPGs generally, it's too damn easy, too damn tedious, bloody hell I find MMORPG players ridiculous sometimes.

Anyone who actually defend this kind of system saying it require you to be 'skillful' either hasn't played any other games or just simply doesn't know what they're talking about, I wish game developers had never hijacked the word 'skill' and stuck with levels because we've got idiots now who can't understand what it means.

SKILLS ARE LEVELS NOT AN ACTUAL MEASURE OF A PLAYERS SKILL IN PERFORMING AN ACTION WITHIN THE GAME.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#10 - 2011-12-24 12:18:37 UTC
DrunkenNinja wrote:
And when I say progression based, I mean, you spend X hours doing something, gain in game resources, and this helps you in later situations (mmorpgs like WoW are heavily progression based).

Do the successful alliances and players in this game simply put in huge amounts of time and effort?
Or are they in fact much more skilled than the lesser groups/players?

In real life, if you are good at something (whether it be skill as a painter/musician/whatever) you can get somewhere.
Is this the same as in EVE? Or is EVE more of a pen and paper style "roleplay, grind and progress" game.

Reducing this to its base level, is the combat in EVE skill based or progression based? Progression based. Doesn't take a whole lot of skill or intelligence to click the lock button, activate modules and orbit, does it?

Your thoughts?


Check out some of Kil2's combat videos with explanations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfovPbZQhBk

You'll see its very much about pilot skill and knowing which modules to activate when, and doing a lot more piloting than clicking orbit.

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#11 - 2011-12-24 12:29:33 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:
your ship will only ever be 25% better than a new player.



I'd say this is a fallacy. A lot of bonuses are cumalitive.

As an extreme example consider drones.

Lvl 1 drones

vs

Lvl 5 drones
Lvl 5 heavy drones
Lvl 5 Drone durabilty

plus others

Theres rarely if ever only one skill that effects something and better skills mean you can use better T2 gear increasing gain further.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
NickyYo
modro
Northern Coalition.
#12 - 2011-12-24 14:08:31 UTC  |  Edited by: NickyYo
EVE is:

*The older the character the better you are
*If you play longer you are better.
*Massive amounts of grinding to get anywhere.

Everyone i spoke to who used to play eve says its the most grinding game they have ever played.
Oh and hi to the "I make 100 million isk an day" and how long have you been playing ?

..
Mirima Thurander
#13 - 2011-12-24 14:21:42 UTC
NickyYo wrote:
EVE is:

*The older the character the better you are
*If you play longer you are better.
*Massive amounts of grinding to get anywhere.

Everyone i spoke to who used to play eve says its the most grinding game they have ever played.
Oh and hi to the "I make 100 million isk an day" and how long have you been playing ?




LuLz 1.1B is easy

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#14 - 2011-12-24 14:24:49 UTC
DrunkenNinja wrote:
And when I say progression based, I mean, you spend X hours doing something, gain in game resources,


Stop mining and do something else?
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#15 - 2011-12-24 14:27:41 UTC
NickyYo wrote:

Oh and hi to the "I make 100 million isk an day" and how long have you been playing ?


Lol if I put in a 6 hour "day" I make a billion. Most of my time, however, is spent "spending" that billion. Right now I have a small capital fleet roaming null sec. If/when it gets destroyed, I'll have to "grind" again to replace the ships and implants. So what? I'm guaranteed fun for a few weeks at the moment, I'll willingly put in 18 hours of "grind".
NickyYo
modro
Northern Coalition.
#16 - 2011-12-24 14:40:44 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
NickyYo wrote:

Oh and hi to the "I make 100 million isk an day" and how long have you been playing ?


Lol if I put in a 6 hour "day" I make a billion. Most of my time, however, is spent "spending" that billion. Right now I have a small capital fleet roaming null sec. If/when it gets destroyed, I'll have to "grind" again to replace the ships and implants. So what? I'm guaranteed fun for a few weeks at the moment, I'll willingly put in 18 hours of "grind".


Do you have a job? or a life even? or just retired?

..
KaarBaak
Squirrel Team
#17 - 2011-12-24 14:44:23 UTC

Eve skills are gained by keeping your skill queue active. Gaming skills are gained by playing more and learning all of the necessary tactics and strategies to be successful. There is no Eve skill that tells you how to tackle and hold a target. No Eve skill that tells you how to approach a target without presenting yourself as a target. There's no Eve skill that tells you how a single CovOps ship can accomplish the same thing as a 100-man fleet. No Eve skill that tells you that your well-manned 25-ship fleet can take on a 75-man fleet of isk-rich CTA fleeters.

The forums are rife with guides and how-to's. There are corps and alliances that exist almost purely to develop those gaming skills and strategies.

Eve skills are the eggs, flour and sugar. If you want to make a pastry, you have to learn the right mixture and how to bake.

Dum Spiro Spero
Dr Karsun
Coffee Lovers Brewing Club
#18 - 2011-12-24 14:51:33 UTC
Eve has a great deal of PLAYER skill involved. Even to be a damn tackler and do it properly you need some knowledge of how to, when, and what to fit. You fit the wrong mod, you don't act fast enough or too fast - you'r toast. Example:

You'r a 1m sp toon with a rifter and only t1 mods. You got it from your friends, fitted properly and to the utmost of your t1 capable skills (to avoid another variable). And you go to a gate with them (lets say low sec). You are hunting for pirates with them. You jump from system to system with them untill you find a potential pirate. You got to know the GATE GUN mechanic to avoid being alphad by them. You need to go close enough without a mwd and not straight-on so the bs sized pirate does not kill you with his huge guns. You got to loop, not punch the mwd too fast so that your sig isn't increased while you'r still far away. You come close to the flagged bs tanking the gate guns right after he dealed with some random stranger, now he's smacktalking. You know you can shoot since he's got negative SS (Very negative) and a CC. You have to know what they are. You approach (lets say succesfully), disrupt him. He still has aggro so your friends warp in, they gangbang him from all sides. You get a juicy kill mail thanks to your awesome action, and it doesn't matter you lost your rifter, they will supply a new one Thanks to your awesome knowledge of all the mechanic and good comunication and proper approach you cost him 500m isk of losses since he had faction weapons.

Now, that scenario naturally is quite surreal and making it simple, I know, but even in this simplified scenario there was at least a dozen things you could have screwed up and thus not hold the enemy long enough and die a miserable death. The situations:

1. Too far away warpin - you die if you don't warp away since his guns will hit you.
2. Too close warpin - he'll web you and kill you.
3. Hitting the mwd/ab too fast , making your sig bigger and thus letting him kill you.
4. Not hitting the warp scrambler fast enough - he warps away.
5. Hitting the warp scrambler too early - he'll know what's coming and he'll jump since he won't aggro you.
6. Hitting the mwd/ab too late - he'll warp off.
7. You told your friends to jump/warp too early and he noticed, deagressed and ran.
8. You told your friends too late - he killed you and warpped off.

Those are just the main PLAYER SKILL things you could have screwed up with this simplified scenario... In a less positive scenario you could have been:

9. Killed by gate guns.
10. Killed by his gang you didn't take into account since they seemed neut alts.
11. And worst of all - because you screwed with intel or aggro mechanics - getting your friends pointlessly killed by his gang or gate guns or both just because you didn't know how it all worked.

Something that could have been an easy solo catch ended as a blood bath because YOU didn't have the PLAYER SKILL.

That's just one example of how player skill is relevant, and that's a VERY simple one. It gets harder with bigger ships / role ships / logistics / etc.

And it's not about the grind, ask your high-sp and rich friends for simple ships, if they are not jerks, they WILL help and find something you can pilot after a week in eve and take you into awesome, thrilling pvp.

"Have you had your morning coffee?" -> the Coffee Lovers Brewing Club is recruiting! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=363976#post363976
NickyYo
modro
Northern Coalition.
#19 - 2011-12-24 15:00:27 UTC
Your all a little delusional if youi ask me.

Ok you can train skills on time based but you cannot put them to use without grinding for isk.
So yes EVE is a game about grinding.

..
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#20 - 2011-12-24 15:02:48 UTC
So there is NO player skill in maintaining range, transversal, correct overheat, slingshot manuevers, applying and holding effective tackle, knowing when to switch targets when to overheat, when to change ammo types, how to manage cap effectively, and when to GTFO?

Nope no player skill at all its just CTRL + Left Click, F1, F2, F3...

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
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