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Prideful slavers: Hiding Injustice

Author
Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#21 - 2015-03-30 07:42:35 UTC
Sinjin Mokk wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:

Welcome to democracy. What a lovely system.

It's not the only system and far from the best.

Just better then any currently in existence.

That may depend on how you define "better."




In this case, I would use the word, "illusion."


Is God an illusion for the Minmatar men and women subjugated by faulty religious doctrine?

Is God an illusion for Amarr children learning to read and write and share toys, and enslave another being?

Is victory an illusion for an Amarr every time he escapes justice?

Yes, illusions for a delusional society.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2015-03-30 08:08:30 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:


Welcome to democracy. What a lovely system.


It's not the only system and far from the best.

Just better then any currently in existence.


I do not see how a system where the uninformed hold the same power as the informed being better than, well, any other system. Far as I see it it's all a list of pro's and con's.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#23 - 2015-03-30 08:34:43 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:


Welcome to democracy. What a lovely system.


It's not the only system and far from the best.

Just better then any currently in existence.


I do not see how a system where the uninformed hold the same power as the informed being better than, well, any other system. Far as I see it it's all a list of pro's and con's.


Democracy is the system not the people who strive for better lives within it. It is there for things like clean water not to be a tool of institutionalized intelligence. You have to make your own dream come true. Democracy where injustice and misinformation is hidden in plain sight is not the definition of a democracy.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2015-03-30 09:07:36 UTC
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Kithrus wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:


Welcome to democracy. What a lovely system.


It's not the only system and far from the best.

Just better then any currently in existence.


I do not see how a system where the uninformed hold the same power as the informed being better than, well, any other system. Far as I see it it's all a list of pro's and con's.


Democracy is the system not the people who strive for better lives within it. It is there for things like clean water not to be a tool of institutionalized intelligence. You have to make your own dream come true. Democracy where injustice and misinformation is hidden in plain sight is not the definition of a democracy.


The Tribal system utilised by the Minmatar Republic also strives to better the lives within the Republic. The difference here is that the power to make it happen is held by the Tribe Elders rather than the common people (though the people could sway the Clan Elders to their concerns, and they can then bring this up to the Tribe Elders, who can then bring it up with the Tribal Assembly).

In fact, when changes to infrastructure and facilities are required, the Republic can probably effect this change much quicker than the democracy of the Gallente Federation, due to the near-absence of bureaucracy in the Tribal system (assuming the resources are available). In the Federation democracy, there still needs to be a referendum, debates, votes, multiple layers of red tape, etc etc to get the desired change effected.

I say the Amarr Empire is much more efficient in comparison, depending on how close said world is to the Empress. If your world happens to be right within the core regions and just next door to the Empress and the Empress declares, "Improve irrigation and power grid," your planet will receive that irrigation and power grid improvement no questions asked. None of that inefficient bureaucracy that plagues the Federation government.

As I said, pro's and con's. Different ways of doing things with different advantages and disadvantages. No such thing as a perfect government system.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Kithrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#25 - 2015-03-30 14:37:08 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:


Is God an illusion for the Minmatar men and women subjugated by faulty religious doctrine?

Is God an illusion for Amarr children learning to read and write and share toys, and enslave another being?

Is victory an illusion for an Amarr every time he escapes justice?

Yes, illusions for a delusional society.



Are you honestly asking or have you made up your mind already? I can't prove a point to someone who is refusing to be receptive of it.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#26 - 2015-03-30 16:56:02 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:


Is God an illusion for the Minmatar men and women subjugated by faulty religious doctrine?

Is God an illusion for Amarr children learning to read and write and share toys, and enslave another being?

Is victory an illusion for an Amarr every time he escapes justice?

Yes, illusions for a delusional society.



Are you honestly asking or have you made up your mind already? I can't prove a point to someone who is refusing to be receptive of it.

You should consider his mind made up.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#27 - 2015-03-30 17:09:57 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Kithrus wrote:

Are you honestly asking or have you made up your mind already? I can't prove a point to someone who is refusing to be receptive of it.

You should consider his mind made up.


We may not convince one another, but the wider Capsuleer and Baseliner audience is another matter.
Siddhar Gangari
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
#28 - 2015-03-30 18:00:58 UTC
ValentinaDLM wrote:
Slavery, Amarr and Sansha all right there in the second paragraph.....If you want to make a difference kill lots of people and hope that helps, but an IGS post telling people slavery is wrong probably isn't going to help.


Challenge accepted.
Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#29 - 2015-03-30 19:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ottom Ephesianos
[/quote]Democracy is the system not the people who strive for better lives within it. It is there for things like clean water not to be a tool of institutionalized intelligence. You have to make your own dream come true. Democracy where injustice and misinformation is hidden in plain sight is not the definition of a democracy. [/quote]

The Tribal system utilised by the Minmatar Republic also strives to better the lives within the Republic. The difference here is that the power to make it happen is held by the Tribe Elders rather than the common people (though the people could sway the Clan Elders to their concerns, and they can then bring this up to the Tribe Elders, who can then bring it up with the Tribal Assembly).

In fact, when changes to infrastructure and facilities are required, the Republic can probably effect this change much quicker than the democracy of the Gallente Federation, due to the near-absence of bureaucracy in the Tribal system (assuming the resources are available). In the Federation democracy, there still needs to be a referendum, debates, votes, multiple layers of red tape, etc etc to get the desired change effected.

I say the Amarr Empire is much more efficient in comparison, depending on how close said world is to the Empress. If your world happens to be right within the core regions and just next door to the Empress and the Empress declares, "Improve irrigation and power grid," your planet will receive that irrigation and power grid improvement no questions asked. None of that inefficient bureaucracy that plagues the Federation government.

As I said, pro's and con's. Different ways of doing things with different advantages and disadvantages. No such thing as a perfect government system.
[/quote]




The Matari Elders have a most efficient way of distributing commands and distributing information. This is why I support their freedom so vehemently.

The Federations red tape is even tape which is better than nothing.

Amarr policy is a popularity contest where God always wins. I know God is the most popular being in Amarr space but I can't seem to find his opinion on anything. Doctrine and law expressed by a corrupt priestess claiming to know something of God dependent upon philosophical diatribes that aren't even taped is not a government. It is a priesthood however when coupled with slavery is becomes a mafia of robes and smoke.

The loyalist Amarr are insane and their way of life must change with the freedom of all slaves being a priority and the development of some type of modern way to govern their peoples coming next.

I would only use their current order to free all slaves and then dissolve it completely.

If God created humans is not the common human the voice of God?

Power is not Gods concern because it is a substrate of its existence. Yet the Amarr confuse power for God and this is why they are insane.
Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#30 - 2015-03-30 19:43:15 UTC
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:
Democracy is the system not the people who strive for better lives within it. It is there for things like clean water not to be a tool of institutionalized intelligence. You have to make your own dream come true. Democracy where injustice and misinformation is hidden in plain sight is not the definition of a democracy. [/quote]

The Tribal system utilised by the Minmatar Republic also strives to better the lives within the Republic. The difference here is that the power to make it happen is held by the Tribe Elders rather than the common people (though the people could sway the Clan Elders to their concerns, and they can then bring this up to the Tribe Elders, who can then bring it up with the Tribal Assembly).

In fact, when changes to infrastructure and facilities are required, the Republic can probably effect this change much quicker than the democracy of the Gallente Federation, due to the near-absence of bureaucracy in the Tribal system (assuming the resources are available). In the Federation democracy, there still needs to be a referendum, debates, votes, multiple layers of red tape, etc etc to get the desired change effected.

I say the Amarr Empire is much more efficient in comparison, depending on how close said world is to the Empress. If your world happens to be right within the core regions and just next door to the Empress and the Empress declares, "Improve irrigation and power grid," your planet will receive that irrigation and power grid improvement no questions asked. None of that inefficient bureaucracy that plagues the Federation government.

As I said, pro's and con's. Different ways of doing things with different advantages and disadvantages. No such thing as a perfect government system.
[/quote]




The Matari Elders have a most efficient way of distributing commands and distributing information. This is why I support their freedom so vehemently.

The Federations red tape is even tape which is better than nothing.

Amarr policy is a popularity contest where God always wins. I know God is the most popular being in Amarr space but I can't seem to find his opinion on anything. Doctrine and law expressed by a corrupt priestess claiming to know something of God dependent upon philosophical diatribes that aren't even taped is not a government. It is a priesthood however when coupled with slavery it becomes a mafia of robes and smoke.

The loyalist Amarr are insane and their way of life must change with the freedom of all slaves being a priority and the development of some type of modern way to govern their peoples coming next.

I would only use their current order to free all slaves and then dissolve it completely.

If God created humans is not the common human the voice of God?

Power is not Gods concern because it is a substrate of its existence. Yet the Amarr confuse power for God and this is why they are insane.[/quote]
Quattras Peione
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2015-03-30 20:00:55 UTC
Slavery, in its mitigated form as described above - in which the slave is nourished physically, spiritually, and mentally by his master in exchange for his servitude - is completely in line with canonical Amarrian scripture. That said, there are numerous texts - all of which are considered heretical to some extent - that disavow or even condemn the practice. So fascinated was I with these works that one, whose structure seems to have been mildly influential to the composition of Pax Amarria, was the main subject of my first doctorate thesis.

While I personally am vehemently opposed to the institution of slavery, it is important to note that it is not only a cornerstone of the hierarchy upon which Amarrian society is built, but is the linchpin that holds their economic structure together as well. Heideran made great strides in moving the Amarr towards a more progressive view on slavery, but removing such an institution in its entirety will take many more generations and a complete overhaul of how Amarrian society functions at all levels.

Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione

No, I'm not that kind of doctor.

Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#32 - 2015-03-30 20:27:14 UTC
Quattras Peione wrote:
Slavery, in its mitigated form as described above - in which the slave is nourished physically, spiritually, and mentally by his master in exchange for his servitude - is completely in line with canonical Amarrian scripture. That said, there are numerous texts - all of which are considered heretical to some extent - that disavow or even condemn the practice. So fascinated was I with these works that one, whose structure seems to have been mildly influential to the composition of Pax Amarria, was the main subject of my first doctorate thesis.

While I personally am vehemently opposed to the institution of slavery, it is important to note that it is not only a cornerstone of the hierarchy upon which Amarrian society is built, but is the linchpin that holds their economic structure together as well. Heideran made great strides in moving the Amarr towards a more progressive view on slavery, but removing such an institution in its entirety will take many more generations and a complete overhaul of how Amarrian society functions at all levels.


I am an Ancient Amarrian. My forefathers kept slaves and were removed from their high places in society for not being abusive enough. Amarr is not a social structure it is a self destruction or excommunication. Any time an Amarrian advances his theologies farther than that of being revered by slaves he is considered a heretic. There is nothing to be found in the Amarr Empire but reformation.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2015-03-31 01:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Here's the problem with the Tribal system: It is very open to nepotism. Very frequently the holders of any important civil posting tends to be there because they know somebody important or happen to have blood ties with somebody important. There is always this one fellow who is way out of his league in his job who was there because the higher up is his father or grandfather or something or other.

Democracy is designed to ensure that such abuse of power doesn't happen. By putting the power to the people, it ensures that you can't just impress your closest family member, you have to also impress the masses before you even make it to anything important in politics. Note: this only applies to civil and government positions.

The Caldari State meritocracy is even more effective in this regard. It reduces you and your performance down to facts, figures and numbers. If the facts, figures and numbers do not make the mark, you aren't getting that position, doesn't matter who you know. Of course, this is all in theory.

I say even the Amarr Imperial system is less open to nepotism, though not by much. You can get your post by knowing so and so, but if the Empress is around and she is not impressed with you, expect to lose your position right then and there.

Again, Pro's and Con's.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#34 - 2015-03-31 03:56:30 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Here's the problem with the Tribal system: It is very open to nepotism. Very frequently the holders of any important civil posting tends to be there because they know somebody important or happen to have blood ties with somebody important. There is always this one fellow who is way out of his league in his job who was there because the higher up is his father or grandfather or something or other.

Democracy is designed to ensure that such abuse of power doesn't happen. By putting the power to the people, it ensures that you can't just impress your closest family member, you have to also impress the masses before you even make it to anything important in politics. Note: this only applies to civil and government positions.

The Caldari State meritocracy is even more effective in this regard. It reduces you and your performance down to facts, figures and numbers. If the facts, figures and numbers do not make the mark, you aren't getting that position, doesn't matter who you know. Of course, this is all in theory.

I say even the Amarr Imperial system is less open to nepotism, though not by much. You can get your post by knowing so and so, but if the Empress is around and she is not impressed with you, expect to lose your position right then and there.

Again, Pro's and Con's.


You never want to displease the Empress. Ever.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#35 - 2015-03-31 04:09:13 UTC
Soren Tyrhanos wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Here's the problem with the Tribal system: It is very open to nepotism. Very frequently the holders of any important civil posting tends to be there because they know somebody important or happen to have blood ties with somebody important. There is always this one fellow who is way out of his league in his job who was there because the higher up is his father or grandfather or something or other.

Democracy is designed to ensure that such abuse of power doesn't happen. By putting the power to the people, it ensures that you can't just impress your closest family member, you have to also impress the masses before you even make it to anything important in politics. Note: this only applies to civil and government positions.

The Caldari State meritocracy is even more effective in this regard. It reduces you and your performance down to facts, figures and numbers. If the facts, figures and numbers do not make the mark, you aren't getting that position, doesn't matter who you know. Of course, this is all in theory.

I say even the Amarr Imperial system is less open to nepotism, though not by much. You can get your post by knowing so and so, but if the Empress is around and she is not impressed with you, expect to lose your position right then and there.

Again, Pro's and Con's.


You never want to displease the Empress. Ever.

I'd be more then happy to please her, but so far I have yet to find her in my quarters....

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Ottom Ephesianos
Mirkur Draug'Tyr
Ushra'Khan
#36 - 2015-03-31 04:26:59 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Here's the problem with the Tribal system: It is very open to nepotism. Very frequently the holders of any important civil posting tends to be there because they know somebody important or happen to have blood ties with somebody important. There is always this one fellow who is way out of his league in his job who was there because the higher up is his father or grandfather or something or other.

Democracy is designed to ensure that such abuse of power doesn't happen. By putting the power to the people, it ensures that you can't just impress your closest family member, you have to also impress the masses before you even make it to anything important in politics. Note: this only applies to civil and government positions.

The Caldari State meritocracy is even more effective in this regard. It reduces you and your performance down to facts, figures and numbers. If the facts, figures and numbers do not make the mark, you aren't getting that position, doesn't matter who you know. Of course, this is all in theory.

I say even the Amarr Imperial system is less open to nepotism, though not by much. You can get your post by knowing so and so, but if the Empress is around and she is not impressed with you, expect to lose your position right then and there.

Again, Pro's and Con's.


I like to know the families with the money and power in my society. Whether they are out of their league or not they still hold the power and funds to do great deeds with their deep pockets. They might as well have some responsibility while they are in possession of such power in the first place.

With democracy the money gets lost. So does the person who is in possession of it.

I see nothing wrong with the tribal system pulling strings as that happens anyway only with it you know where the strings are instead of in a democracy where you don't.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2015-03-31 05:57:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Here's the problem with the Tribal system: It is very open to nepotism. Very frequently the holders of any important civil posting tends to be there because they know somebody important or happen to have blood ties with somebody important. There is always this one fellow who is way out of his league in his job who was there because the higher up is his father or grandfather or something or other.

Democracy is designed to ensure that such abuse of power doesn't happen. By putting the power to the people, it ensures that you can't just impress your closest family member, you have to also impress the masses before you even make it to anything important in politics. Note: this only applies to civil and government positions.

The Caldari State meritocracy is even more effective in this regard. It reduces you and your performance down to facts, figures and numbers. If the facts, figures and numbers do not make the mark, you aren't getting that position, doesn't matter who you know. Of course, this is all in theory.

I say even the Amarr Imperial system is less open to nepotism, though not by much. You can get your post by knowing so and so, but if the Empress is around and she is not impressed with you, expect to lose your position right then and there.

Again, Pro's and Con's.


I like to know the families with the money and power in my society. Whether they are out of their league or not they still hold the power and funds to do great deeds with their deep pockets. They might as well have some responsibility while they are in possession of such power in the first place.

With democracy the money gets lost. So does the person who is in possession of it.

I see nothing wrong with the tribal system pulling strings as that happens anyway only with it you know where the strings are instead of in a democracy where you don't.


The Minmatar Republic has not been run under the democratic system ever since the late former prime minister, Karin Midular (ancestors take her) fell from grace.

Also, are you really sure you want a subpar reactor engineer being put in the position of management in a nuclear reactor a couple miles away from a population center just because his father is the CEO of said power company? That, right there, is a disaster waiting to happen.

Because mind you, such a thing has happened in the Minmatar Republic. Thankfully not that often considering that the other members of the same tribe tend to scrutinize each other, not to mention that matter of pride.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Kithrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2015-03-31 11:47:53 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:

I'd be more then happy to please her, but so far I have yet to find her in my quarters....


You'd still displease her.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2015-03-31 11:57:11 UTC
Kithrus wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:

I'd be more then happy to please her, but so far I have yet to find her in my quarters....


You'd still displease her.

I did not say that, you slanderous fiend!

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Soren Tyrhanos
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#40 - 2015-03-31 19:44:08 UTC
Ottom Ephesianos wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Here's the problem with the Tribal system: It is very open to nepotism. Very frequently the holders of any important civil posting tends to be there because they know somebody important or happen to have blood ties with somebody important. There is always this one fellow who is way out of his league in his job who was there because the higher up is his father or grandfather or something or other.

Democracy is designed to ensure that such abuse of power doesn't happen. By putting the power to the people, it ensures that you can't just impress your closest family member, you have to also impress the masses before you even make it to anything important in politics. Note: this only applies to civil and government positions.

The Caldari State meritocracy is even more effective in this regard. It reduces you and your performance down to facts, figures and numbers. If the facts, figures and numbers do not make the mark, you aren't getting that position, doesn't matter who you know. Of course, this is all in theory.

I say even the Amarr Imperial system is less open to nepotism, though not by much. You can get your post by knowing so and so, but if the Empress is around and she is not impressed with you, expect to lose your position right then and there.

Again, Pro's and Con's.


I like to know the families with the money and power in my society. Whether they are out of their league or not they still hold the power and funds to do great deeds with their deep pockets. They might as well have some responsibility while they are in possession of such power in the first place.

With democracy the money gets lost. So does the person who is in possession of it.

I see nothing wrong with the tribal system pulling strings as that happens anyway only with it you know where the strings are instead of in a democracy where you don't.


Meaningless justifications for wrongdoing to suit your purposes at best. To suggest that in a social setting where corruption and nepotism is already taking place these acts are morally just whereas in a system where affluence and social stand is of import the act of subverting lawful or proper procedure is suddenly immoral is plain foolish.


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