Player Features and Ideas Discussion

ever try to make a living in high sec by mining? it's hard. it's hard because the low price of minerals/ore found there. it's hard because of the amount of ore you need to sell just to get by month to month. one ganked mining barge can be a setback that makes someone quit. And that isn't even getting into what an active war does to them. People say "move to null" blah blah blah but we know what's out there, people looking for fights. It's surprisingly hard to fight in a mining vessel fitted for mining rather than to fight others, I bet someone from CODE can confirm that.


correlation does not imply causation. I find the learning curve of the game to be the problem. Mining is good way to start but it has a income ceiling, and pvp tends to be SP intensive so newbs tend to quit before the game becomes good for them. that's my take anyway.

How is it the least constructive? 50m base fee for a wardec is not enough. What is the point of highsec when every corp is hit by wardecs? The only safe corps in HS is npc corps. Also explain what the point of wardecing a corp with 90% of the players less than a month old. The only recourse for those players is to corp hop since they wouldn't stand a chance vs the attacker.

Wardec cost should be high, 50m is nothing now days. Wardecs shouldn't just be tossed out like nothing, and as long as they are people will dodge them and that isn't going to change. If you make the wardec an actual war between 2 corps/alliances then most likely some good/fun pvp will happen but wardecing people who can't compete is just useless. Your suggestion that people should remain in npc corps or join a well established corp is just idiotic, why should people be limited to those options to enjoy the game they pay for?

OK, brain back in gear and hopefully making more sense now...

My problem with wardecs is that it is very easy for a large corp that can afford the cost to wardec a small corp that can't. This makes it very difficult for any small and even medium size corp to dip their toe into industry in POS as opposed to stations. This is also the reason that I don't have an issue with players jumping corp to avoid the wardec. If their is no reasonable way for a corp to defend itself in combat then the only feasible defence is to go turtle and pull everything back into a safe place (NPC station). In the meantime the newer players in the corp still need to be making ISK as they can ill afford to lose it pointlessly in wars.

Wars in hisec ought to be a means for one corp to mess with anothers industry in my view but at the moment it seems to be simply used as an easy means for large wardec corps to get themselves a large number of relatively easy targets. I understand the 'It's a sandbox' argument but if people are doing something that puts pilots of undocking there are usually hysterical cries to change it. I also believe that if someone is risk averse then that is their game psychology and not down to any single game mechanic/cost.

I have no idea how to change wardecs to work in a more fair way and on that basis think that players with no wish (or ability) to fight should never be forced to (beyond ganks as no-one should be 100% safe). If they choose to jump corps at the drop of a wardec then that will show in their employment history and any corp who wants members who will stand and fight will know that. Anyone wrdeccing a corp should do the research to see how that corp will react. If the war history shows they will not fight then the corp giving the wardec cannot complain when the decced corp just shuts up shop for a week.

The onus is on the wardeccing corp to do their research in my mind. You want fights? Pick a corp that will fight or help a corp that is wardecced and can't fight. Want to mess with a corps industry? That will work just fine.

One thought that has probably been suggested before is that the cost of the wardec should be scaled along with the number of members in a corp. However maybe a multiplier should be applied to the base cost per member derived from the corp numbers. Corp A has 15 members and corp B has 150, therefore it should cost 10 x as much for corp B to wardec corp A. Corp B could wardec for the base cost if they really think they can handle the opposition. Similar sized corps would pay pretty much the same as each other for a wardec. If the larger corp doesn't want to pay the cost of the wardec they can always go and gank the smaller corp instead to disrupt their business/goad them into war.

Also I think what I meant about neutral logi in last nights moment of stupidity was that a neutral logi meddling in a war has very little comeback right now. At the very least a neutral logi assisting a member attacking a wartarget should generate a killright for the corp that they assisted against. A war declaration formalises hostilities between two entities and assisting one side would usually lead you to be labeled as an enemy combatant.

Of course. A player should always be able to retreat to the NPC corp and a corp should always be able to retreat to an NPC station. There should be some consequences for the corp though so that they cannot just pull everything down, remake the corp and go about their business the next day. But for a player, if they have had enough of a corp or don't want to fight they should be able to go back to the NPC corp and start again.

This is a dangerous carebear fallacy. There are plenty of examples of 5-year-old "new players" sitting in highsec still telling themselves that they need to make a little more ISK before they can go PvP. The trap of only seeing all activities through the lens of ISK to the point that you never do anything. Swarms of T1 frigates and destroyers cost next to nothing for everyone but the smallest and newest corporations. Wars are not pointless - they are part of the game. If you never want to do them, you better find some friends to provide your protection.


Carebears everywhere are "hysterical" whenever someone tries to get between them and their ISK. Just look at the forum tears over AFK cloaking, removing the need to scan down mining anomalies, increasing the difficulty to roll worm holes, the perceived ease for the attacker using the proposed Entosis link to attack space and so on. Thankfully, CCP realizes that to have an exciting and active PvP game, players need to be at risk to other players, regardless of that risk is "fair" or "balanced" and have been increasing these risks in recent years. If and when CCP gets around to revamping highsec wars, it will definitely not be in the direction to give highsec corps more safety from attackers. It will likely be another attempt to build mercenary market place.

Isn't a suspect flag enough? I mean the logi is labeled an enemy combatant and is open to attack by not just you, but anyone. Seems pretty fair to me.

Remove concord , and all wardec issues will be solved.

There's a lot of people here advocating something it's plain they have never tried themselves. Also the usual "it's a sandbox BUT PLAY IT MY WAY OR YOU'RE ALL WRONG".

Shoot the logi, indeed!

Ever tried breaking multiple guardians? The firepower required to do so would have rendered the fight they tried to assist in over so quickly they would be useless. It's a massive oxymoron.

Furthermore, flashy yellow in highsec is absolutely synonymous with "scam/bait/do not engage if you want to live" because there are so many in local so it is impossible to now what you face. To engage flashy yellow in circumstance unknown is stupidity itself.



More on topic: Here's a radical idea - come up with a way that the attackers suffer consequences when they bite off more than they can chew. Not a popular idea though, because, you know....the people being decced should just line up and take it like a man instead of daring to deny the aggressors their easy kills.

Part of PvP is denying the enemy a kill. Folding a corp is no less distasteful than the attacking corps having no assets at all, because they're all hidden away in neutral corps and they are supplied via neutral haulers. They're ALL just "creative uses of game mechanics", people just get bent right out of shape when it denies them their kill farming. I'd support consequences for ducking wardecs just as soon as the attackers need to pony up with assets, something they stand to lose if the war goes sour - until then....the imperfect status quo is just fine.

I have. Been on the other side, too. And, as it turns out, half a dozen newbies flying Griffons makes that pretty much a moot point. People really shouldn't scoff at the ewar frigates, they are an enormous force multiplier with very little training time required.




And so you try to justify your refusal to engage with people whom you think should suffer consequences. It's always someone else who has to do something, isn't it?



Yeah, that's a great idea, we should make it so that the defenders can legally shoot back! Or hey, we should make it so that they can make the war mutual and force the attacker into keeping it! And even better, let's allow the defender to bring in allies for free, too!

Oh wait, those already exist. And once again, just because you're too chickenshit to use the existing options does not mean that they are invalid somehow.




They already have something to lose.

They fly ships the same as you. Those have the same potential for loss as the defender, in fact typically more, since the average wardec corp flies fairly expensive doctrines for highsec.

Stop crying about your refusal to inflict consequences back. It is YOUR FAULT, not the fault of the mechanic, not the fault of the game, and not the fault of the people declaring wars. Yours.

Consequences already exist in abundance, if people would just grow a pair and use them.

That's a lot of tears for not being able to shoot industrials.

Just because you hate how they are defending their assets, looks like their use of game mechanics is...simply better than yours. Bummer.

There is no 'Deserve' in Eve, you buy it or you don', you defend it how best suits you. I never said that new players "can't" be effective and have repeteadly stated the opposite in many threads here. I stated that many do not wish to enter into PvP and will use any means at their disposal to avoid it. As for defending their assets that is exactly what they are doing by packing them up and putting them somewhere safe. There is no exploit in putting your stuff in a station to keep it safe. Most people do that each time they dock up to log off. Expecting that someone should have to fight you because you wardec'd them is bordering on 'but I'm entitled to!'. If they do not wish to fight you then they do not have to. That doesn't make them 'chickenshit' if they have assessed their capabilities and founf them not fit for a war. It makes them smart enough to know when to run instead.

Here's an example: You are stood outside your house and an 8 foot tall guy with a baseball bat and a friend ready to taser you comes up and says 'Fight me'. Do you A) go inside and lock the door or B) say 'OK since you are entitled to have me stand here whilst you pummel me'.

I also still hold the view that if these l33t skillz PvP folks want gud fights so much why are they not forming corps in losec and bringing some life to that region? Guaranteed fights there and no wardec required...