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Crime & Punishment

 
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Sad State of Empire Space

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Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
Dreamweb Industries
Novus Ordo.
#81 - 2015-03-28 09:30:22 UTC
I've got a feeling (and a number of forum posts here only reaffirm it) that the inhabitants of other regions in EVE tend to look down on all highsec dwellers, both carebears and those who bother them. It seems that it's become a conventional wisdom that it's lowsec, null, and W-space that are are the places where one can find real content and those fabled "goodfites" everyone is talking about. As for highsec (except for RvB, arguably), there's nothing but griefers, merc slapfights, and cheap drama there, so anyone who's looking for real PvP should immediately leave highsec.

The problem with this attitude is that it reflects the reality only partially, if at all. In fact, highsec has become, by far, the only place where there's a real distinction between the "good guys" and the "bad guys". I believe, this has been caused by two main factors:

1. The rest of the inhabited space is no man's land where, like in DayZ, every stranger is automatically perceived as an enemy who wants to shoot you in the face just for the fun of it. As i like to say, there are no "good guys" in lowsec, and there are no "bad guys" in nullsec.
2. The absence of supreme (and omnipotent) law enforcement elements makes "criminal activity" in low and null devoid of its original meaning and removes the factor of consequences for "criminals".

Examples? Sure, there are plenty. Let's say, you've tackled an expensive ship in a PvP region and are offering to let it go for a ransom. The victim has transferred the money to you, but you are still free to blow him up anyway for the sake of the loot and tears. The only repercussion you can expect is a sec status drop if you've done it in lowsec. Otherwise, you have zero to no incentive to let the victim go. That's why lowsec piracy is dead: no one in their sound mind will pay ransoms to those who've tackled them.

Now, let's imagine that I'm bumping a freighter in highsec. I convo the pilot and give him a choice: pay a ransom or get ganked. The victim calculates his risks and pays me a handsome sum of money. And now I have a real choice before me, and to let the freighter go is, surprisingly, the easy option here. If I want to gank him, I need to have a stash of ganking gear nearby (which costs a lot of money) and a company of friends available for a fleet. I have to continually bump the target to prevent him from warping off and have an aggressor close at hand in case he logs off. Plus, there's a pretty high chance that a company of anti-gankers will warp in to provide logi support to the freighter or even gank my bumping Mach! If I don't have the necessary manpower, I can still hyperdunk him (provided that I have the gear, of course), but this venture is even more dangerous.

This is the main problem of the entire dispute here. Highsec provides the kind of game mechanics and meta which are simply not present in the rest of the universe. The criminals here are offered real choices with real risks, consequences, and rewards. To tell a highsec hooligan to fit a bunch of cheap T1 frigates and destroyers and go have some PvP in low would be the same thing as telling him to go play Counter-Strike or Call of Duty: sure, it's a nice, action-packed kind of gameplay, but with hardly any financial or social consequences.

Agent of the New Order

Live by the Code - die by the Code.

The Voice of Highsec
Malthraz
Malthraz.
#82 - 2015-03-28 09:40:01 UTC
Danalee wrote:
Fixed that for you Blink

Malthraz wrote:

I recall that Orphanage war deced 0.0 corps and ganked idiots. I quite jelly about this kind of fun filled action because null is boring blobland where such fun is impossible.

My corp stayed out of high sec when Orphanage war deced us because it was scary. You fought. We may as well have been NPCs. That is the same reason we never fight anyone else. I will freely admit that hisec pvpers are better PvPers than I am.

Some more bs to say people like to win but malhraz should win more.


D.

Bear


Thanks for fixing that for me Danalee. This is exactly what I wanted to say, but just could not bring myself to type it.
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#83 - 2015-03-28 09:41:24 UTC
Oh, c'mon now.

Hunting FW plex runners is great sport.

Bear

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#84 - 2015-03-28 10:29:28 UTC
Malthraz wrote:
Thanks for fixing that for me Danalee. This is exactly what I wanted to say, but just could not bring myself to type it.


Damn you for not being mad and thus not having your feelings hurt and thus not coming after me to get revenge! Lol
I must say, this response was quite unexpected but I do applaud it.
Thanks for putting a smile on my face.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#85 - 2015-03-28 11:28:39 UTC
Malthraz wrote:
Danalee wrote:
Fixed that for you Blink

Malthraz wrote:

I recall that Orphanage war deced 0.0 corps and ganked idiots. I quite jelly about this kind of fun filled action because null is boring blobland where such fun is impossible.

My corp stayed out of high sec when Orphanage war deced us because it was scary. You fought. We may as well have been NPCs. That is the same reason we never fight anyone else. I will freely admit that hisec pvpers are better PvPers than I am.

Some more bs to say people like to win but malhraz should win more.


D.

Bear


Thanks for fixing that for me Danalee. This is exactly what I wanted to say, but just could not bring myself to type it.



Autocorrect gets me all the time too
Mobadder Thworst
Doomheim
#86 - 2015-03-28 11:52:02 UTC
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
I've got a feeling (and a number of forum posts here only reaffirm it) that the inhabitants of other regions in EVE tend to look down on all highsec dwellers, both carebears and those who bother them. It seems that it's become a conventional wisdom that it's lowsec, null, and W-space that are are the places where one can find real content and those fabled "goodfites" everyone is talking about. As for highsec (except for RvB, arguably), there's nothing but griefers, merc slapfights, and cheap drama there, so anyone who's looking for real PvP should immediately leave highsec.

The problem with this attitude is that it reflects the reality only partially, if at all. In fact, highsec has become, by far, the only place where there's a real distinction between the "good guys" and the "bad guys". I believe, this has been caused by two main factors:

1. The rest of the inhabited space is no man's land where, like in DayZ, every stranger is automatically perceived as an enemy who wants to shoot you in the face just for the fun of it. As i like to say, there are no "good guys" in lowsec, and there are no "bad guys" in nullsec.
2. The absence of supreme (and omnipotent) law enforcement elements makes "criminal activity" in low and null devoid of its original meaning and removes the factor of consequences for "criminals".

Examples? Sure, there are plenty. Let's say, you've tackled an expensive ship in a PvP region and are offering to let it go for a ransom. The victim has transferred the money to you, but you are still free to blow him up anyway for the sake of the loot and tears. The only repercussion you can expect is a sec status drop if you've done it in lowsec. Otherwise, you have zero to no incentive to let the victim go. That's why lowsec piracy is dead: no one in their sound mind will pay ransoms to those who've tackled them.

Now, let's imagine that I'm bumping a freighter in highsec. I convo the pilot and give him a choice: pay a ransom or get ganked. The victim calculates his risks and pays me a handsome sum of money. And now I have a real choice before me, and to let the freighter go is, surprisingly, the easy option here. If I want to gank him, I need to have a stash of ganking gear nearby (which costs a lot of money) and a company of friends available for a fleet. I have to continually bump the target to prevent him from warping off and have an aggressor close at hand in case he logs off. Plus, there's a pretty high chance that a company of anti-gankers will warp in to provide logi support to the freighter or even gank my bumping Mach! If I don't have the necessary manpower, I can still hyperdunk him (provided that I have the gear, of course), but this venture is even more dangerous.

This is the main problem of the entire dispute here. Highsec provides the kind of game mechanics and meta which are simply not present in the rest of the universe. The criminals here are offered real choices with real risks, consequences, and rewards. To tell a highsec hooligan to fit a bunch of cheap T1 frigates and destroyers and go have some PvP in low would be the same thing as telling him to go play Counter-Strike or Call of Duty: sure, it's a nice, action-packed kind of gameplay, but with hardly any financial or social consequences.


Well said.

Nobody hates null enemies or low pirates, largely because they pose no risk unless you choose to allow them to do so.

It is the high sec pvper who cannot be easily controlled and who terrorized the 70% of Eve that lives in high sec.

High sec players have no other predator or adversary, though...
Amarrchecko
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#87 - 2015-03-28 12:15:58 UTC
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
This is the main problem of the entire dispute here. Highsec provides the kind of game mechanics and meta which are simply not present in the rest of the universe. The criminals here are offered real choices with real risks, consequences, and rewards. To tell a highsec hooligan to fit a bunch of cheap T1 frigates and destroyers and go have some PvP in low would be the same thing as telling him to go play Counter-Strike or Call of Duty: sure, it's a nice, action-packed kind of gameplay, but with hardly any financial or social consequences.


Tempted to log into all of my accounts so I can like this more than once.
Amarrchecko
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2015-03-28 12:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarrchecko
Mobadder Thworst wrote:
High sec players have no other predator or adversary, though...


There are different kinds of adversaries for different kinds of players. Miners and haulers have to deal with suicide gankers and wardecs. Mission runners have to learn how to avoid getting baited or ganked. Sure. But people playing the market aren't just logging in to free isk; they have competitors trying to ruin them so THEY can take over those markets for profit. Same with manufacturers and researchers and basically every other highsec activity.

Besides, why would players living in "high security space" need more than a bunch of suicide gankers popping them with relatively no isk or other risk (especially if they are doing it with alts) and the threat of wardecs (most people probably aren't in corps they will ditch just to dodge a wardec, I don't think?) to keep them on their toes anyways?
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#89 - 2015-03-28 12:23:41 UTC
I always get a sad when someone tells me to go to null or low if I want to pvp.
I grew up in high sec. I live there. I kill there. I die there.
I don't see how pvp in any one sector of space is any more or less valid than another. They just are different with different nuances attached.
Sour grapes seems to be a recurring thing. Were I to suicide gank, people would berate me for attacking defenseless haulers and miners. Mission flipping, I'm a bad person because I took my pvp frigate against their pve battleship and that's not FAIR.
If I go to null then I'm a blobber or F1 monkey. And so on and so forth.
So long as someone is exploding what is the real problem? Blood makes the grass grow.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri
Dreamweb Industries
Novus Ordo.
#90 - 2015-03-28 13:03:26 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
I always get a sad when someone tells me to go to null or low if I want to pvp.
I grew up in high sec. I live there. I kill there. I die there.
I don't see how pvp in any one sector of space is any more or less valid than another. They just are different with different nuances attached.
Sour grapes seems to be a recurring thing. Were I to suicide gank, people would berate me for attacking defenseless haulers and miners. Mission flipping, I'm a bad person because I took my pvp frigate against their pve battleship and that's not FAIR.
If I go to null then I'm a blobber or F1 monkey. And so on and so forth.
So long as someone is exploding what is the real problem? Blood makes the grass grow.


This is normal.

Agent of the New Order

Live by the Code - die by the Code.

The Voice of Highsec
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2015-03-29 08:29:26 UTC
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
I've got a feeling (and a number of forum posts here only reaffirm it) that the inhabitants of other regions in EVE tend to look down on all highsec dwellers, both carebears and those who bother them. It seems that it's become a conventional wisdom that it's lowsec, null, and W-space that are are the places where one can find real content and those fabled "goodfites" everyone is talking about. As for highsec (except for RvB, arguably), there's nothing but griefers, merc slapfights, and cheap drama there, so anyone who's looking for real PvP should immediately leave highsec.
.


Very true. I wish I had stopped reading here so I wasn't bothered with drivel about how challenging it is to run a disposable ganking alt.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2015-03-29 08:43:17 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
I always get a sad when someone tells me to go to null or low if I want to pvp.
I grew up in high sec. I live there. I kill there. I die there.
I don't see how pvp in any one sector of space is any more or less valid than another. They just are different with different nuances attached.
Sour grapes seems to be a recurring thing. Were I to suicide gank, people would berate me for attacking defenseless haulers and miners. Mission flipping, I'm a bad person because I took my pvp frigate against their pve battleship and that's not FAIR.
If I go to null then I'm a blobber or F1 monkey. And so on and so forth.
So long as someone is exploding what is the real problem? Blood makes the grass grow.


It comes down to what you want to get out of the game. I derive no satisfaction from getting kills with a blob or gatecamping. It can be funny, but it's not really satisfying. There's no skill involved.

Frankly, 99% of the skill involved in mission baiting, is patience. You have to be willing to spend a significant bit of time and effort to get someone to aggress. Once they do, they're just dead in almost every case. I do have more respect for someone that does it solo because there is at least a minimal risk with a 50M ISK ship on the line. As opposed to playing the game of alts to reduce your effective risk to zero.

Ganking on the other hand, is just a math problem. You use a dedicated character for it so going -10 provides no consequence at all. 2 weeks to train a basic cat pilot, do math, drop out of warp on afktard, press f1. Nothing to it.

Doesn't compare to the glory of honorable frigate warfare, blasters at high noon against an opponent of equal or greater calibre.
It's not too late for you to find redemption in the cleansing fires of Black Rise.
Dsparil
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#93 - 2015-03-30 02:43:10 UTC
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
Lotsa very relevant ****...




You sir nailed it pretty good. That's exactly how I feel. There is no truly safe place in this game. PERIOD. The risk factory is what brings the content.
Dsparil
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#94 - 2015-03-30 02:44:00 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
I've got a feeling (and a number of forum posts here only reaffirm it) that the inhabitants of other regions in EVE tend to look down on all highsec dwellers, both carebears and those who bother them. It seems that it's become a conventional wisdom that it's lowsec, null, and W-space that are are the places where one can find real content and those fabled "goodfites" everyone is talking about. As for highsec (except for RvB, arguably), there's nothing but griefers, merc slapfights, and cheap drama there, so anyone who's looking for real PvP should immediately leave highsec.
.


Very true. I wish I had stopped reading here so I wasn't bothered with drivel about how challenging it is to run a disposable ganking alt.




oh you poor child, are those tears I'm seeing?
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2015-03-30 04:15:48 UTC
Dsparil wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
I've got a feeling (and a number of forum posts here only reaffirm it) that the inhabitants of other regions in EVE tend to look down on all highsec dwellers, both carebears and those who bother them. It seems that it's become a conventional wisdom that it's lowsec, null, and W-space that are are the places where one can find real content and those fabled "goodfites" everyone is talking about. As for highsec (except for RvB, arguably), there's nothing but griefers, merc slapfights, and cheap drama there, so anyone who's looking for real PvP should immediately leave highsec.
.


Very true. I wish I had stopped reading here so I wasn't bothered with drivel about how challenging it is to run a disposable ganking alt.




oh you poor child, are those tears I'm seeing?


Nah mate. Just perfectly formed droplets of pure truth.
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#96 - 2015-03-30 08:13:35 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
I always get a sad when someone tells me to go to null or low if I want to pvp.
I grew up in high sec. I live there. I kill there. I die there.
I don't see how pvp in any one sector of space is any more or less valid than another. They just are different with different nuances attached.
Sour grapes seems to be a recurring thing. Were I to suicide gank, people would berate me for attacking defenseless haulers and miners. Mission flipping, I'm a bad person because I took my pvp frigate against their pve battleship and that's not FAIR.
If I go to null then I'm a blobber or F1 monkey. And so on and so forth.
So long as someone is exploding what is the real problem? Blood makes the grass grow.


It comes down to what you want to get out of the game. .


Very true. I wish I had stopped reading here so I wasn't bothered with drivel about how challenging it is to fly a frigate or something.

droplets of pure truth, how droll... If it looks and tastes like tears, hmmm... salty.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2015-03-30 09:01:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Demerius Xenocratus
Danalee wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
I always get a sad when someone tells me to go to null or low if I want to pvp.
I grew up in high sec. I live there. I kill there. I die there.
I don't see how pvp in any one sector of space is any more or less valid than another. They just are different with different nuances attached.
Sour grapes seems to be a recurring thing. Were I to suicide gank, people would berate me for attacking defenseless haulers and miners. Mission flipping, I'm a bad person because I took my pvp frigate against their pve battleship and that's not FAIR.
If I go to null then I'm a blobber or F1 monkey. And so on and so forth.
So long as someone is exploding what is the real problem? Blood makes the grass grow.


It comes down to what you want to get out of the game. .


Very true. I wish I had stopped reading here so I wasn't bothered with drivel about how challenging it is to fly a frigate or something.

droplets of pure truth, how droll... If it looks and tastes like tears, hmmm... salty.

D.

Bear


I would love to see you try and solo in an unlinked frigate in FW space. It's harder than sitting on the 4-4 undock with a dozen of your buddies and neutral logi in station, for damn sure.

How is 4-4 tonight anyway? Any good scams? Or are you banished to Amarr?


And I mean that in the nicest way possible. I hope a wartarget in a pve fit blingboat is lumbering towards your trade hub even now.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#98 - 2015-03-30 10:10:48 UTC
Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri wrote:
I've got a feeling (and a number of forum posts here only reaffirm it) that the inhabitants of other regions in EVE tend to look down on all highsec dwellers, both carebears and those who bother them. It seems that it's become a conventional wisdom that it's lowsec, null, and W-space that are are the places where one can find real content and those fabled "goodfites" everyone is talking about. As for highsec (except for RvB, arguably), there's nothing but griefers, merc slapfights, and cheap drama there, so anyone who's looking for real PvP should immediately leave highsec.

The problem with this attitude is that it reflects the reality only partially, if at all. In fact, highsec has become, by far, the only place where there's a real distinction between the "good guys" and the "bad guys". I believe, this has been caused by two main factors:

1. The rest of the inhabited space is no man's land where, like in DayZ, every stranger is automatically perceived as an enemy who wants to shoot you in the face just for the fun of it. As i like to say, there are no "good guys" in lowsec, and there are no "bad guys" in nullsec.
2. The absence of supreme (and omnipotent) law enforcement elements makes "criminal activity" in low and null devoid of its original meaning and removes the factor of consequences for "criminals".

Examples? Sure, there are plenty. Let's say, you've tackled an expensive ship in a PvP region and are offering to let it go for a ransom. The victim has transferred the money to you, but you are still free to blow him up anyway for the sake of the loot and tears. The only repercussion you can expect is a sec status drop if you've done it in lowsec. Otherwise, you have zero to no incentive to let the victim go. That's why lowsec piracy is dead: no one in their sound mind will pay ransoms to those who've tackled them.

Now, let's imagine that I'm bumping a freighter in highsec. I convo the pilot and give him a choice: pay a ransom or get ganked. The victim calculates his risks and pays me a handsome sum of money. And now I have a real choice before me, and to let the freighter go is, surprisingly, the easy option here. If I want to gank him, I need to have a stash of ganking gear nearby (which costs a lot of money) and a company of friends available for a fleet. I have to continually bump the target to prevent him from warping off and have an aggressor close at hand in case he logs off. Plus, there's a pretty high chance that a company of anti-gankers will warp in to provide logi support to the freighter or even gank my bumping Mach! If I don't have the necessary manpower, I can still hyperdunk him (provided that I have the gear, of course), but this venture is even more dangerous.

This is the main problem of the entire dispute here. Highsec provides the kind of game mechanics and meta which are simply not present in the rest of the universe. The criminals here are offered real choices with real risks, consequences, and rewards. To tell a highsec hooligan to fit a bunch of cheap T1 frigates and destroyers and go have some PvP in low would be the same thing as telling him to go play Counter-Strike or Call of Duty: sure, it's a nice, action-packed kind of gameplay, but with hardly any financial or social consequences.


Ganking is attractive because it lets players actually make a difference. Highsec is a ptarget rich environment and I have noticed a big change in behavior after ganking a new area for a few weeks.

I think this is the biggest motivation for telling us to go to low/null as well. If all the gankers go to null, then the miners can go back to afk mining in yield fit ships.
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#99 - 2015-03-30 11:15:25 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Danalee wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
I always get a sad when someone tells me to go to null or low if I want to pvp.
I grew up in high sec. I live there. I kill there. I die there.
I don't see how pvp in any one sector of space is any more or less valid than another. They just are different with different nuances attached.
Sour grapes seems to be a recurring thing. Were I to suicide gank, people would berate me for attacking defenseless haulers and miners. Mission flipping, I'm a bad person because I took my pvp frigate against their pve battleship and that's not FAIR.
If I go to null then I'm a blobber or F1 monkey. And so on and so forth.
So long as someone is exploding what is the real problem? Blood makes the grass grow.


It comes down to what you want to get out of the game. .

Very true. I wish I had stopped reading here so I wasn't bothered with drivel about how challenging it is to fly a frigate or something.
droplets of pure truth, how droll... If it looks and tastes like tears, hmmm... salty.


I would love to see you try and solo in an unlinked frigate in FW space. It's harder than sitting on the 4-4 undock with a dozen of your buddies and neutral logi in station, for damn sure.

How is 4-4 tonight anyway? Any good scams? Or are you banished to Amarr?

And I mean that in the nicest way possible. I hope a wartarget in a pve fit blingboat is lumbering towards your trade hub even now.


Just because you are bad at something doesn't make it hard. Quite the contrary really.
And I wouldn't know how Jita looks, I'm not a one trick pony - I might add as opposed to you but that's a given- Danalee has been around the block baby.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#100 - 2015-03-30 15:01:27 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Capt Sephiroth wrote:
But fozzie talked about it in the interview :(


He sure did. I am hopeful that I simply missed it...



Black legion. ?? I hope you got hacked, someone deleted all your assets and signed you up with them just to make you look bad. It's the only happy scenario I can come up with.

Leto.... What have you done??