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Nerfing energy transfer and infinite cap creation
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#21 - 2015-03-29 17:03:19 UTC
It's been my position for a long time that the sustainability of logi is fundamentally broken, and effects the game on a number of levels, none of them good.

So +1 to anything that would break that, and that's speaking as a long time Guardian pilot to boot.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#22 - 2015-03-29 17:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Malcanis wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Cap chains are fairly fragile, and if you break one link of that chain, the whole thing comes apart.


Uh nope.


the whole thing has to be put back together, contrary to the OP's idea that:

Quote:
Generally speaking anything you can do permanently with little to no effort in game is boring and bad/flawed game mechanics.


Quote:
This would add more module interaction, opportunities for mistakes to be exploited and more decisions. Always better than "fire and forget" mechanics.


Cap chains are resilient, not immune, to neuting.

if you put neut pressure on one link, you have to put more cap into that link (at the expense of cap else where) or treat it like a lost cause. There is effort to put in, decisions to make, mistakes to exploit.

if the DPS/RR tug of war with target switching is engaging enough for gameplay, then so is the neut/cap chain tug of war with target switching.


edit- that is of course unless you think you should break a guardian cap chain with a firetail and a single small neut...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lugh Crow-Slave
#23 - 2015-03-29 17:04:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Cap chains are fairly fragile, and if you break one link of that chain, the whole thing comes apart.


Uh nope.



yes the chain only needs to be broken long enough to pop a few ships


a powerful way to disrupt a chain is using an ecm burst kits/blackbird/(or if possible scorp) combine with scan res damps

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2015-03-29 17:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Cartheron Crust wrote:
While the recieving ship gaining the heat damage is an interesting concept I would not be amused to be hit by a Guardian from 50+km with five energy transfers and burning all my active mods. -_-

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
ahh i found your problem



energy nuets are not the counter to cap chains cap chains are the counter to nuets



the counter you are looking for is ECM and when a fleet comp is dependent on cap transfers one jam is enough to bring the entire fleet down



-1 not over powered no need for nerf


In that vein ecm is the counter to everything targetted. Whats the counter to turrets? ECM! Whats the counter to scrams? ECM! Whats the counter to tracking disruption? ECM! Etc etc. Stop being silly. Requiring a flawed and boring mechanic (ecm) to counter an equally boring "fire and forget" mechanic is not good gameplay.

Turrets: tracking disrupters
Scrams: warp core stabs
Tracking disruption: tracking computers

ECM: ECCM
^^in particular is why a lot of logo set ups have an ECCM module. Targeting disruption just happens to be more flexible and a better range than trying to neut logistics.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#25 - 2015-03-29 17:22:26 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It's been my position for a long time that the sustainability of logi is fundamentally broken, and effects the game on a number of levels, none of them good.

So +1 to anything that would break that, and that's speaking as a long time Guardian pilot to boot.



even when it breaks far more areas of the game?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#26 - 2015-03-29 17:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Lienzo
Reducing or removing cap transfer range bonuses would increase the vulnerability to logi blobs to bombers.

Add in a module or rig to allow for the bonus range in order to allow the specialist setup.

Super cap RR should be interrupted by a Doomsday effect that makes the target immune to remote repairs. It is called a Doomsday after all.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#27 - 2015-03-29 17:28:55 UTC
Lienzo wrote:
Reducing or removing cap transfer range bonuses would increase the vulnerability to logi blobs to bombers.

Add in a module or rig to allow for the bonus range in order to allow the specialist setup.


well this is a better idea however cap chains still aren't in much need of a nerf

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#28 - 2015-03-29 17:37:52 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It's been my position for a long time that the sustainability of logi is fundamentally broken, and effects the game on a number of levels, none of them good.

So +1 to anything that would break that, and that's speaking as a long time Guardian pilot to boot.



even when it breaks far more areas of the game?


Like what?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Lienzo
Amanuensis
#29 - 2015-03-29 17:44:16 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Lienzo wrote:
Reducing or removing cap transfer range bonuses would increase the vulnerability to logi blobs to bombers.

Add in a module or rig to allow for the bonus range in order to allow the specialist setup.


well this is a better idea however cap chains still aren't in much need of a nerf


My experiences with hostile supers on the field indicate something different.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#30 - 2015-03-29 17:45:16 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
It's been my position for a long time that the sustainability of logi is fundamentally broken, and effects the game on a number of levels, none of them good.

So +1 to anything that would break that, and that's speaking as a long time Guardian pilot to boot.



even when it breaks far more areas of the game?


Like what?



the use of the cap transfers in large numbers to simply burn out an opposing fleets modules within seconds of the fight starting (giving heat to the target rather than the one using the mod as posted on page one)

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#31 - 2015-03-29 17:46:26 UTC
Lienzo wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Lienzo wrote:
Reducing or removing cap transfer range bonuses would increase the vulnerability to logi blobs to bombers.

Add in a module or rig to allow for the bonus range in order to allow the specialist setup.


well this is a better idea however cap chains still aren't in much need of a nerf


My experiences with hostile supers on the field indicate something different.



so because it is broken in an area of the game nearly everything winds up breaking it needs to be nerffed in areas it is working?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#32 - 2015-03-29 17:57:35 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

the use of the cap transfers in large numbers to simply burn out an opposing fleets modules within seconds of the fight starting (giving heat to the target rather than the one using the mod as posted on page one)


What does that have to do with my statement? I am merely in agreement that logistics should have it's sustainability nerfed severely. That is one of the major mechanical problems facing the game today, that logi is functionally infinite.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2015-03-29 18:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
If you add heat into the equation, it should ONLY be between people who are participating in a cap chain, and not for any one-way usage.

But I don't like that idea at all. I think a better idea would be to make cap transfer increases also increase the cost, but by a smaller amount, so the margin does increase but not by as much. Likewise, the cap cost decreases should decrease the cap transferred, but by a smaller amount so the margin still increases. This way you're nerfing free cap creation without negatively impacting one-way use of energy transfers. It also allows the old style of indefinite cap chain to remain, albeit being brought closer to the sustained rep output of non-chaining logi. It should still be higher because:
1.) non-chaining logi has higher burst repping power
and
2.) chaining logi requires teamwork to sustain, and cap chains can be broken with ECM or ship destruction.


But yes, as a person who has flown Guardian and Augoror, I do feel that the cap-chains do need to be nerfed. And here's an example of changes that could be made:

Augoror: +200% energy transfer amount and +100% energy transfer activation cost
Guardian: -7.5% energy transfer activation cost per level (down from -15% per level)
Egress Port Maximizer rigs 1/2: -15%/-20% activation cost and -7.5%/-10% energy transfer amount
Capacitor Emission Systems skill: -2.5% activation cost per level (down from -5% per level)

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Lugh Crow-Slave
#34 - 2015-03-29 18:07:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

the use of the cap transfers in large numbers to simply burn out an opposing fleets modules within seconds of the fight starting (giving heat to the target rather than the one using the mod as posted on page one)


What does that have to do with my statement? I am merely in agreement that logistics should have it's sustainability nerfed severely. That is one of the major mechanical problems facing the game today, that logi is functionally infinite.



Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

+1 to anything that would break that


how does it not have to do with what you said

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#35 - 2015-03-29 18:13:40 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

how does it not have to do with what you said


Because I'm encouraging the discussion as a whole, since it's something that desperately needs brought up. Reading comprehension, get some.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-03-29 18:44:33 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
If you add heat into the equation, it should ONLY be between people who are participating in a cap chain, and not for any one-way usage.

But I don't like that idea at all. I think a better idea would be to make cap transfer increases also increase the cost, but by a smaller amount, so the margin does increase but not by as much. Likewise, the cap cost decreases should decrease the cap transferred, but by a smaller amount so the margin still increases. This way you're nerfing free cap creation without negatively impacting one-way use of energy transfers. It also allows the old style of indefinite cap chain to remain, albeit being brought closer to the sustained rep output of non-chaining logi. It should still be higher because:
1.) non-chaining logi has higher burst repping power
and
2.) chaining logi requires teamwork to sustain, and cap chains can be broken with ECM or ship destruction.


But yes, as a person who has flown Guardian and Augoror, I do feel that the cap-chains do need to be nerfed. And here's an example of changes that could be made:

Augoror: +200% energy transfer amount and +100% energy transfer activation cost
Guardian: -7.5% energy transfer activation cost per level (down from -15% per level)
Egress Port Maximizer rigs 1/2: -15%/-20% activation cost and -7.5%/-10% energy transfer amount
Capacitor Emission Systems skill: -2.5% activation cost per level (down from -5% per level)


The only thing that need to be stopped is the 5/1 setup. Make it so you need at least a bit more feed than a single cap transfer but less than 2 full time to run so a cap chaining logi wing gets to benefit the fleet if they are cap hungry and the non chaining ones get to be the more nimble and "careless" ones.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2015-03-29 18:55:58 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The only thing that need to be stopped is the 5/1 setup. Make it so you need at least a bit more feed than a single cap transfer but less than 2 full time to run so a cap chaining logi wing gets to benefit the fleet if they are cap hungry and the non chaining ones get to be the more nimble and "careless" ones.

That would certainly make a large difference where it counts, and it would be as easy as changing the Guardian and Basilisk bonus to -12.5% cap cost per level.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#38 - 2015-03-29 19:01:47 UTC
Personally, I've thought about escalating cap requirements for consecutive logi transfers within a particular timeframe, and making them not auto cycle. That doesn't really fix capital reps though, so heat may be a better avenue.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Maksim Cammeren
Taxless Corp
#39 - 2015-03-29 20:27:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Maksim Cammeren
Malcanis wrote:
Actually I think an even better variation or addition of this mechanic would be to make it such that receiving cap transfers causes heat.


Interesting. But, as mentioned elsewhere, how about only generating heat when your cap gets over-filled? The amount of heat should depend on the percentage "overflow" from your capacitor.

This will let you "defend" from enemy cap transfers to some degree by running all your cap-intensive modules and, in general, gives more opportunities to benefit from good cap management. This still heavily punishes afk cap chains that don't manage the cap much.


For all the people who are worried about instantly burning out modules from hostile transfers: it is a question of balancing the numbers.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#40 - 2015-03-29 21:31:01 UTC
Maksim Cammeren wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Actually I think an even better variation or addition of this mechanic would be to make it such that receiving cap transfers causes heat.


Interesting. But, as mentioned elsewhere, how about only generating heat when your cap gets over-filled? The amount of heat should depend on the percentage "overflow" from your capacitor.

This will let you "defend" from enemy cap transfers to some degree by running all your cap-intensive modules and, in general, gives more opportunities to benefit from good cap management. This still heavily punishes afk cap chains that don't manage the cap much.


For all the people who are worried about instantly burning out modules from hostile transfers: it is a question of balancing the numbers.


Cap intensive mods on fleet ship are weapons (already close to covered by pasive regen) and prop mod. Would be fun to see who would burnout between that and a logi telling his cap buddy to cut him off the chain while keeping his repper running on anything in range just to burn cap.