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Assault Frigates Will Blot Out the Sun...

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Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2011-12-24 11:23:45 UTC
Kn1v3s 999 wrote:
I like the mwd bonus but for ceptors:
ok, they will be used as pure tackler (as someone can say their role) but that s a very limited niche. Outside of that role they will be totally obsolete.


this is the first time i've heard that fleet/gang tackling is a limited niche Straight

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Laerise
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2011-12-24 12:59:02 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Some people in this thread...
I can't... I don't...
...Sometimes I lose faith in this community

Interceptors have their roles.
They are fast tackle, they are first line of offense in a roaming gang, and offer undeniable utility in fleets.
They have significant advantages over AFs in all tackling related situations (their role) that occur OUTSIDE of scramble range. They will remain a staple of fleets, despite what your terrible pvp-skillz are moaning about.
Combat interceptors will continue to be used, as they are still significantly more effective when it comes to dealing with all electronic attack ships, faction frigates, and of course standard T1.

Assault frigates are taking what is rightfully theirs in that they are for heavy duty combat. They are weak at range against larger targets, and they are slow, stiff frigates in comparison to every other offensive hull.
The MWD bonus is designed to increase their versatility and effectiveness in ALL areas of opportunity, without overpowering them via afterburners. These ships area already extremely difficult to hit once they are under cruiser+ turret tracking without a propulsion mod, and even moreso with an afterburner. The bonus is supposed to assist in getting them to that point without exploding on activation. If you are looking for an overpowered mechanic, you're about a month too late for the Dramiel has already been nerfed.

Consider these changes a wake up.
Change your fitting doctrine up a little bit, and try fitting the ships differently than you've been accustomed to over the past few years. AFs will now become something worth flying, and not something 20 people in all of empire try to gank with***.

If/When these changes actually make it to the test server, play with them, & work with them. Try something new.
I am 100% confident these changes will work out for the best. And yes, the Retribution is completely useless with only 1 mid-slot, and no amount of ship comparisons will change that fact.

***I know it's not actually 20 people, my point is that they are extremely niche ships, almost as bad as EAFs (which also need love


How is the Retributions wet-paper-towel dps going to help when it gets its "oh so important" second mid though? It will, in practice get out damaged by any other AF, most likely even the Veng... Kind of disapointing when you consider how much fitting it sacrifices using lasers.
Tub Chil
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2011-12-24 13:27:09 UTC
Would new Assault frigs be a good counter to tier3 BC-s?
Will they further obsolete T1 frigates?
Liam Mirren
#44 - 2011-12-24 13:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
I'm not so sure the "ADD SLOTS TO EVERYTHING!!!" is the right way to do this, apart from the retri ofcourse. All AFs really need is a slightly increased speed just above their T1 counterparts, leaving the choice of AB or MWD to the pilot. It seems to me as if they're trying to balance them towards faction/pirate ships which to me is the wrong way round.

Give them slightly higher base speed, adjust fitting here and there (sparsely) and then take care of the faction/pirate ships (nerf em), THEY are the problem.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#45 - 2011-12-24 14:10:29 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Throwing in the additional comments, given that it is internal, I'm just putting out thoughts, rather than criticising CCP.

I think the problem is that you can't buff AF speed without pushing the redundancy problem to the interceptors. Give the AFs too much speed and their DPS and tank outweighs the benefits of using an interceptor. Likewise, Inty's are used now largely only for their speed. The role bonus to AFs would negate what INTY's essentially have to train level IV interceptors to get.

Given this, a reason to fly Interceptors would need to be created, perhaps give them a role bonus to interdiction maneuvers? Just a thought.

Alternatively, if we are thinking that destroyers are Battle Cruisers, and T2 frigs are T2 Cruisers, how do we define the differences between battlecruisers and HACs? Generally, hacs are more agile, and do potentially more dps, or have other nich aspects.

Likewise, should we see AF's tank/gank buffed a bit to match the same idea?


+1


Giving the vengeance more damage would be a mistake. The Retribution and Coercer are fine as they are now. Fleet Interceptors are terrible currently. That has everything to do with the prevalence of cruisers and battle-cruisers using tracking enhancers. Has been this way for awhile. Given the choice between a myriad of frigates for the purpose of tackling. Dramiel's are used because of survivability.

Jaguars will be increasingly added to that. I was in a "out of character channel" when I first heard of these changes. Most indicated they'll be using assault frigates more often for fleet engagements if this were to happen. They're cheaper than using a Dramiel and more survivable than Interceptors (h0m0's). Beening in this game for so long. Anyone can see where these retards will flock to (easy mode, I win, easy to use, easy to lose etc).

I'm completely against increasing assault frigates defensive capabilities. I am for increasing their damage output with the exception of the Vengeance and Hawk. Mirroring the heavy assault cruiser, battle-cruiser dichotomy (Frigate tank with destroyer damage).

One extreme measure I brought up yesterday was to get rid of the whole assault ship class and merge it into Interceptors. Making assault frigates just another tier within the interceptor class, with differing role bonuses. Pretty much getting rid of the Wolf, Enyo, Harpy, Crusader, Taranis, Claw, Crow and Retribution (would be crazy to see some of these go). Leaving the rest as the new Interceptor class. Also at-least 3 Electronic assault frigates are fine. I tend to use the Keres more than any other frigate for tackling in fleet engagements (one sensor dampner, warp scrambler, medium shield extender, warp disruptor (36km) and micro-warp drive). Only the Heyna seems bad. However, all frigates seem terrible for fleet engagements these days, even a Dramiel.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#46 - 2011-12-24 14:31:57 UTC
Laerise wrote:


How is the Retributions wet-paper-towel dps going to help when it gets its "oh so important" second mid though? It will, in practice get out damaged by any other AF, most likely even the Veng... Kind of disapointing when you consider how much fitting it sacrifices using lasers.



Well - if you fit ACs on it you'll probably end up with enough grid to use that second midslot for dualprop. You get more cap and better tracking as a cherry on top..
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Daniel L'Siata
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#47 - 2011-12-24 14:50:38 UTC
Okay, those are some awesome changes.

Tweaking will be needed...but...this is kinda...you know...new, there's that fun thing called testing.

The only real input I have at this stage is that the Retribution will probably still come out substantially weaker and may need a more substantial rebalancing than the others.
Laerise
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2011-12-24 14:57:27 UTC
Daniel L'Siata wrote:
Okay, those are some awesome changes.

Tweaking will be needed...but...this is kinda...you know...new, there's that fun thing called testing.

The only real input I have at this stage is that the Retribution will probably still come out substantially weaker and may need a more substantial rebalancing than the others.


I agree, it's great to see them finally start looking into the AF's. I'm optimistic that they'll work it out in a way that makes them both fun to fly in and against.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#49 - 2011-12-24 18:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: m0cking bird
This will be able to run a neutraliser permanently. 220 damage per second (160 scorch), 11.5k effective hit-points, 2150m/sec

Retribution

Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Adaptive Nano Plating II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Pseudoelectron Containment Field I
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Small Energy Burst Aerator I
Small Energy Collision Accelerator I


Same idea as the one above, but more range. Obviously the point is to prolong being caught by another Assault frigate as long as possible. Mainly the Minmatar assault frigates and the Vengeance. If their running a single armour repair and no capacitor booster or just rolling with a damage control. Things will perish.


[Retribution

Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Dual Light Pulse Laser II, Scorch S
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Warp Disruptor II

Tracking Enhancer II
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Internal Force Field Array I
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Heat Sink II

Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Collision Accelerator II


I'll be posting Ishkur and Enyo comparison set-up later on today. You'll see that both ships do basically the same damage with these changes. I'll go into the Vengeance and Hawk alot more and link some overpowered set-ups. I'll also compared the Enyo with wolf and why a rail-gun Enyo would be the most viable set-up. I'll also put together a Jaguar with the new changes for those who lack insight.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#50 - 2011-12-24 18:42:31 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Hahahaha. Those preliminary changes would make them so OP it isnt even funny. T1 fit AFs would dwarf officer fit pirate frigs for Goddess sake .. extra slots AND more bonuses ....

No wonder CCP has had issues sorting them if they start at the utmost extreme and then whittle away on them .. waste of time.

PS: Drool at prospect of Retribution with not only the original god-range but with god-tracking and 2nd mid .. trolololol.


Quoting someone who is often correct.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#51 - 2011-12-24 19:35:31 UTC
I'm going to beat you to the punch on the Enyo:

Nano Enyo-
High:
Light Ion Blaster II x 4
Arbalest Rocket Launcher
Mid:
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
MAPC II
F85 Peripheral Damage System
MFS II
OD II
Rigs:
Hybrid Burst
Hybrid Collision

2677m/s unheated. 3813 m/s heated. 402 DPS with faction AM. 328 DPS Null

Nuet Resistant Enyo-
High:
Light Nuetron Blaster II x 4
Arbalest Rocket Launcher
Mid:
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Small Cap Booster II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
F85 Peripheral Damage System
SAR II
Reactive Plating II
MAPC I
Rigs:
Hybrid Burst
Hybrid Collision

2380m/s unheated. 3390 m/s heated. 363 DPS Federal AM. 297 DPS Null

Moar Gank Enyo-
High:
Light Nuetron Blaster II x 4
Arbalest Rocket Launcher
Mid:
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor
Low:
F85 Peripheral Damage System
Reactive Plating II
OD II
MFS II
Rigs:
Hybrid Burst
Hybrid Collision

2677 m/s unheated and 3813 m/s heated. 426 DPS Federal AM and 348 Null.

Anazzar
Polaris Space Industries
#52 - 2011-12-24 20:00:11 UTC
Quote:
-5% bonus to Missile Launcher Rate of Fire per level


Sorry is that minus 5% a typo or is the vengs 4th bonus a dps nerf?
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#53 - 2011-12-24 20:29:08 UTC
Anazzar wrote:
Quote:
-5% bonus to Missile Launcher Rate of Fire per level


Sorry is that minus 5% a typo or is the vengs 4th bonus a dps nerf?


If you think 5% factoring to "rounds per unit of time", then yes.
But i think CCP reads it as "-5% in cycle time".

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#54 - 2011-12-24 20:32:47 UTC
I'm a little dissapointed by the changes. Won't comment on fitting since that will vary by hull, but the role bonus is very meh. Granted, it's just what AF's need- increasing their survivability combined with mobility. But really, that's what ALL frigates need. The frigate class in general is in a very awkward state. Better IMO to reduce the sig bloom on the 1mn MWD module, and balance the specific hulls for the roles they are intended for.

Overhaul Dscan!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#55 - 2011-12-24 20:43:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
m0cking bird wrote:
I'll go into the Vengeance and Hawk alot more and link some overpowered set-ups.


What are they overpowered compared to? What role are they taking away from a ship that should be legitimately filling that role?

-Liang

Ed: Furthermore, are you sure that this is a case of AFs muscling in on someone else's role, or is this more of a case of someone else muscling in on AFs roles?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2011-12-24 20:54:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Ines Tegator wrote:
I'm a little dissapointed by the changes. Won't comment on fitting since that will vary by hull, but the role bonus is very meh. Granted, it's just what AF's need- increasing their survivability combined with mobility. But really, that's what ALL frigates need. The frigate class in general is in a very awkward state. Better IMO to reduce the sig bloom on the 1mn MWD module, and balance the specific hulls for the roles they are intended for.


The real problem is Tracking Enhancers and long range T2 ammo for close range turrets. It's like a double bonus against frigates - hit them sooner and track them better. The result: frigates get BBQ'ed too easily when they're at range and approaching unless they have MWD with a sig bloom reduction bonus. I'm quite sure that the 'fix' to EAFs will be a MWD bloom reduction bonus. That doesn't fix the underlying problem though.

What's needed is an additional mechanism to the tracking formula that gradually decreases tracking after a certain distance. That would be the correct approach in my opinion, but I'm not sure if CCP is willing to touch core game mechanics. I'm not even sure if the way I would do it is good, but I'm convinced that the current tracking mechanics are failing their intended purpose in this situation.
Liam Mirren
#57 - 2011-12-24 21:26:39 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
What's needed is an additional mechanism to the tracking formula that gradually decreases tracking after a certain distance.


That's called falloff.


Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2011-12-24 21:46:51 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
What's needed is an additional mechanism to the tracking formula that gradually decreases tracking after a certain distance.


That's called falloff.


Falloff has no effect on tracking.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#59 - 2011-12-24 22:22:35 UTC
After the nano nerf frigates enjoyed a little renaissance. Speed tanking was popular. Small rigs had just come out. The web nerf as well as the scrambler change gave alot of options.

The minmatar projectile buff eroded that quite a bit. You have to fly through anywhere from 40km to 80km of falloff to get to the target. In addition to decent tracking the autocannons were assisted by TE that were just about mandatory. If your small ship managed to get under the guns by some miracle - you had one if not two nuets waiting for you as well as a full flight of light drones.

Blaster cruiser/BC I now expect will be able to track and destroy frigates in scramble range. And of course because of Dramiel. Roll

I think this needs to be looked at not in that AF are overpowered but that other frigates need a slight buff. The tier system for Tech 1 should go. Interceptors may need a brush up. Etc.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2011-12-24 22:26:15 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I'm going to beat you to the punch on the Enyo:

Nano Enyo-
High:
Light Ion Blaster II x 4
Arbalest Rocket Launcher
Mid:
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
MAPC II
F85 Peripheral Damage System
MFS II
OD II
Rigs:
Hybrid Burst
Hybrid Collision

2677m/s unheated. 3813 m/s heated. 402 DPS with faction AM. 328 DPS Null

Nuet Resistant Enyo-
High:
Light Nuetron Blaster II x 4
Arbalest Rocket Launcher
Mid:
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Small Cap Booster II
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
F85 Peripheral Damage System
SAR II
Reactive Plating II
MAPC I
Rigs:
Hybrid Burst
Hybrid Collision

2380m/s unheated. 3390 m/s heated. 363 DPS Federal AM. 297 DPS Null

Moar Gank Enyo-
High:
Light Nuetron Blaster II x 4
Arbalest Rocket Launcher
Mid:
Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor
Low:
F85 Peripheral Damage System
Reactive Plating II
OD II
MFS II
Rigs:
Hybrid Burst
Hybrid Collision

2677 m/s unheated and 3813 m/s heated. 426 DPS Federal AM and 348 Null.




this needs to go live. AF's should stand toe to toe with t1 cruisers.