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[Scylla] Beta Map Release - feedback wanted!

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Gremoxx
Wing Commanders
#41 - 2015-03-26 08:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Gremoxx
Pro´s
- I had goosebumps when I tried it first, endless possibilities
- Nice visuals


Con´s
- all above really (what others have pointed out)
- Capital jump distance, in old map you had sort of bubble, missing in new map
CCP Turtlepower
C C P
C C P Alliance
#42 - 2015-03-26 10:18:55 UTC
Casey Ambraelle wrote:

I'd love to have


  • Kill the maps music or options to turn it down



This exists already. Esc menu - Audio tab - Advanced Audio Settings - Map and ISIS volume.
Alqualonde
Burger Time
#43 - 2015-03-26 16:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Alqualonde
I just spent a lot of time playing with the map and feeling nostalgic. The new map is prettier and less black-screen-prone (a huge issue with the old one back in the day), and a little bit better at showing the systems in a readable way, but not much less frustrating to use. I think a big overall issue is it just feels sluggish to respond. All the zooming and panning has a slow acceleration on it, and the refresh rate seems low.

Another big issue is 2D vs 3D vs solar system mode. Like the old map, 2D mode is what you want most of the time for sane navigation. It's the only way to not miss things. However, 2D solar system mode is a lot less useful, and REALLY unhelpful if you are scanning. But because the map is continuous, solar systems are 2D when everything else is. So you have to switch a lot, which involves a tiny menu item in a tiny menu. I also find myself switching between solar system and star map mode a lot, which is sluggish for a whole different reason: It takes a ton of scrolling.

Here is my detailed list:

Camera controls

  1. Transitioning between solar system and star map mode takes a TON of scrolling, and the map never seems to start in the mode that I need it in (I don't care about the solar system map if I am about to travel, but that is how it always starts). The old map's toggle system was honestly faster and more convenient.
  2. The focus button's behavior is unexpected to me. In star map mode I expected it to recenter on my current system, but it goes the extra mile and zooms all the way down to solar system. This is annoying and not something I ever need unless I am scanning.
  3. Like the old map, in 3D mode it is hard to pan to where you want to see, and easy to accidentally rotate in an unexpected manner. Star systems are hard to click, and I don't particularly want to have to click them to center the map somewhere. I kind of just want to pan around and have it automatically do the right thing somehow. In general, 3D mode still seems quite useless and bad at showing geography. I think 3D mode would be better if the cursor became the center of rotation when the selected system goes off-screen.
  4. 2D mode is easy to accidentally rotate and sluggish to pan. Rotating is cool but not very useful to me, while I really need panning to be faster and easier. Panning the old map feels FAR more responsive.
  5. I kind of expect to use the left mouse button to pan in 2D mode, and am constantly messing up. IMO both buttons should pan - I just don't need rotating.
  6. Switching between 3D and 2D tends to completely lose what you were looking at.
  7. Honestly, I think I would enjoy using the map more if it zoomed and rotated around the cursor, at least under certain circumstances like when nothing is selected.


Scanning
This is the only time the map should be in 3D mode. Unfortunately I have to make the switch manually, and switching between 2D and 3D scrolls off the system. x_X
Scanning UI also feels more sluggish and choppy than in the old map.

Layout and coloring

  1. Like the old map, it is not dotlan and provides very little understanding of geography and connections between regions without switching to abstract mode and staring at it at length. Lots of systems and jump lines appear on top of each other.
  2. At a minimum I really need region jumps to be highlighted more clearly. (The old map let me make them red; this map fades them out MORE.)
  3. The colors are not easy to tell apart, and some colorings fail to differentiate every border. For example, the entire north is colored white in region mode.


Information

  1. It would be really nice if hovering over a star system also showed its sovereignty. This is useful in empire for flavor, and essential in nullsec.
  2. I think star systems are a little too faded at the zoom levels I usually use. I would like them to be easier to see and read details about without hovering the mouse. The new map's tendency is to just show dots most of the time. I need more info!
  3. A thing that sucked about the old map was being unable to combine displays. It would be really cool to have sov coloring and station services on simultaneously, for example.


Search

  1. It is not clear to me if a search result is the name of a region, constellation, or system. It was a little confusing initially when I searched for a solar system and a bunch of stations came up, but the solar system I was looking for had less to draw the eye to it (it was not bold and has nothing saying what kind of result it is, whereas the stations all had icons).


Good things!

  1. Full screen mode with the minimal menu bar at the top is a great way of getting rid of the old floating panel.
Greygal
Redemption Road
Affirmative.
#44 - 2015-03-26 23:47:42 UTC
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:

2) As other posters have noted, there are big problems with how information is displayed. For instance, showing jumps per hour, kills in the last 24 hours, players currently docked, and so on, are all very poorly communicated and very much a step back from the old map design.
Here is how "ships destroyed in the last 24 hours" looks on the old map: http://i.imgur.com/FPY2azO.jpg?1
And here is how it look on the new map: http://i.imgur.com/X45qSc1.jpg?1
The immediately obvious problem is that the new map does not visually communicate the numbers well at all, either by size or by noticeable colors. On the old map, I can immediately tell which systems have had 0 ship kills--a very important piece of information obviously--and I can immediately tell where the hot spots are. The way such information is displayed on the new map should model the old map but do it better--currently, it is doing it worse (even more so when it comes to jumps and other stats). (Compare this to how "systems I've visited" is displayed--which, I think, is a very nice improvement on the old map. With "systems I've visited" I can see each system distinctly and I can fairly quickly tell which I frequently visit and which I have never visited. Other stats should be just as easy to read.)


This +100

It's very difficult, and often impossible, to see the hot spots on the map. Often you have to scroll in to about the constellation level to see any colors at all, and that makes one of the things the current map is best at, useless on the new map.

The picture Sven links above is a really good example of the issues with the new map's display of information. My old eyes see just the barest hint of colorization on the hot spot systems.

Need to up the colorization and brightness of graphically displaying the relative stats on the systems. It doesn't need to be as glaring and obvious as the old map, but it needs to be useful and able to be understood at a glance. In particular, you shouldn't have to spend relative hours scrolling around, in, and out of areas to figure out if someplace is hot or not.

Thanks!

GG

What you do for yourself dies with you, what you do for others is immortal.

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Visit Redemption Road or join mailing list REDEMPTION ROAMS for information
Arkolino
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2015-03-27 05:57:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Arkolino
The new map for me is almost perfect. Thank you very much for it.

But there is one thing that still keeps me from using it over the old one. I am a dedicated explorer and this is the most fun way for me to play EvE.

That being said I am planing long routes (more than 100 jumps) by adding waypoynts from system to system , so that each system from the 100 long route is unique and never go back to a system twice, and then I save the route to Notepad (Without Notepad, Imagine doing this each time I do exploration) .This is not so a problem now after all these years, since I have many exploration routes saved to notepad, but from time to time I make new ones and improve the old ones.

The problem with the new map is that when zooming in closer to the systems, the conection lines between them fade, and become barely visible, making route establishment very hard.This is not happening in the old map.

What would be nice is if you could maintain the contion lines between solar systems fully visible until you are very close to a particular system or when you zoom in enough to see the celestials.

P.S. would it be....No i think this would be too awsome..but i will still ask

Would it be possible to add an option of saving routes? Like after I plan my waypoints in the Map , to have an option to save it , and next time when I want to use the same route , I would just load it and not having to waypoint each system again.Right now, as I said, I use Notepad for saving my routes, but it's awful since a route is more than 100 waypoints and I have to create 3-4 notes for a single route.
Casey Ambraelle
VoidRunner's Inc.
#46 - 2015-03-27 06:01:30 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Casey Ambraelle wrote:

...
Kill the maps music or options to turn it down
...


This exists already. Esc menu - Audio tab - Advanced Audio Settings - Map and ISIS volume.


Awesome one loaded pizza otw Cool
Jinx Jameson
Dead Cow Theory
#47 - 2015-03-28 08:42:37 UTC
New map for scanning looks great, like the fact that map during scanning doesn't have to be full screen anymore.
Here's a few attention points that I encountered :

- center on the Sig currently probing works when double click on map, however not when double click in scanning window
- when you resize probe range, the sigs (red circles ect) disapear, until you select them again in the scanning window, over and over again, really annoying
- sigs that are beeing scanned at a certain point show as 1 or 2 black dots, used to be red dots, they are really hard to propperly see on the map, black might not be the best color for those.

Cheers,

J.
Khalida Nusaru
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2015-03-28 12:01:01 UTC
Copied form another thread... didn't see this one Ugh


  • Notifications combined with the mail system is a really bad idea.

    • The mail system gets really cluttered when you get a million notifications about this structure is under attack or that skill has trained. If it is combined there won't be anyway to tell if you actually got an evemail or if it was just some random skill trained. Keep them separate and in the open; attached them to the neocom, brilliant, but don't hide them in something else. Maybe have them always be locked to the bottom of the neocom?

  • The simple shapes (crosses, squares, etc.) for the overview = much better than the triangles that are meant to be classes from ISIS.

    • You guys said it right in the presentation, the overview is meant for at a glance information. If these images are to close to one another that at a glance will not work. At a glance needs to be a key principle when looking at the overview. The more diverse a shape is from another the more likely that the information will be conveyed correctly. Along the same vein the fewer types of images there are, the less likely that sensory overload will kick in. If we are meant to memorize these images then give us a way to distinguish our types of targets: is this large and squishy? will it likely fire back? What kind of size am I looking at? Think the split second decisions that need to be made for pvp and less "we need to make it flow from one to the next."

  • The tactical overview cannot be real time if it is view able off grid.

    • This may not have been where you guys were going, but based upon the answers given to an idea presented (41:00 on the youtube upload of the presentation) I just wanted to make you guys think twice about this. The amount of information gathered from being on grid and knowing who is where on the grid for both your side and any enemies is to valuable to be available from anywhere but that grid. This would result in an FC being able to tuck himself away and command from safety, maybe even in a station/POS. Any tool where a major factor in a battle (like an FC, booster, skynet, etc.) can be off grid and not have the risk associated with the fight, flies in the face of the risk vs reward mantra that the games seems to be living by now. Would it be cool, you betcha. Would it be a good change, not in a million years.

  • Probe scanning not tied to the cluster wide map. A separate cleaner map would be better.
  • Beta map needs more readability for filters

    • Both of these things are kind of tied to the same problem. As it currently stands the beta map does a good job of orienting where someone is in space relative to everything else and gives a good sense of scale, exactly what your goals were with it. (It also looks really cool) What it doesn't do well is additional functions, like the filters, and probe scanning. Both of these things rely on the ability to see information with accuracy and speed. In its current state the beta map is to cluttered to meet either of these requirements.

    Filters
    The old map in 3D mode had much of the same problems, but its saving grace was the fact that it could be flattened. If you take away the 3rd dimension of a map it makes this type of information much faster to read because you are not processing the spatial visualizations. I think this is what you guys allude to when you say "something like dotlan." A simplified map for quick references. Take a look at Civ V's strategic map vs its world map. Bringing the spirit of plain shapes and simplified images rather than grand spatial references that look amazing is exemplified quite nicely in Civ V. It could be implemented the same way as well, just a button that turns the map from simplified mode to "awesome 'I feel so small' eye candy" mode. You almost had the right idea with the old map, the simplified mode just didn't go far enough to warrant swapping to the eye candy one.

    Scan Probes
    An idea that you guys mentioned as an option: having the probe scanning not on the cluster map, but on a separate solar system map. This map could be much simpler, but still needs to be large enough to be able to position your probes correctly. Perhaps use the same pop out/docking mechanism, but have this scanning map only open when your probes are launched and the scanning window is open. The current solar system map does a really good job of this already, it just needs to be easier to display its information and not hinder other systems like the overview, d-scan, or even the system scanner. This map could also be used to display the area being d-scanned as well, to give a much better picture of where you are actually sensing.

    Bonus thoughts: D-Scan
    As it currently stands d-scan is a test of spatial visualization more than a useful tool to most new players. It is like being handed a compass for the first time and having a map with no landmarks on it to orient yourself. What use is the compass if you don't know where you are relative to where you want to be. Seeing where you are facing and how far you are actually scanning would make both of these systems way more intuitive, and open up the potential for more people to use them in unison. Its almost as if you are adding a tooltip to d-scan; it is that kind of contextual information that is needed for the NPE. The system compass does an okay job of doing this exact thing with the system scanner for visuals in space. Now that same spirit needs to be brought to d-scan.
    Siraneth EP Tirend
    Doom Generation
    Best Intentions.
    #49 - 2015-03-29 03:48:05 UTC
    Sir Livingston wrote:
    Problems

    - I can't double-click on the probe list in the scanner window to recenter the screen on my probes.
    - I can't double-click on the signature list in the scanner window to recenter the screen on the signature.
    - The framerate drops when I resize probes.
    - The cosmic signature continually disappears from solar system view when interacting between the beta map and the scanner window. This requires me to reselect the signature from the scanner window to make it reappear in the solar system view.

    These problems don't exist in the old solar system view we use for probing.


    These are all issues I have found troublesome as well.

    In addition, I think changing the circular marker for Cosmic Signatures from black to red would be helpful.
    CCP Turtlepower
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #50 - 2015-03-31 15:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Turtlepower
    Today we deployed a patch that should have fixed many of the issues mentioned in this thread. From the patch notes:

    New map: Probing - Fixed results with low scan strength showing up black rather than red.
    New map: Probing - Fixed false positives sometimes not showing up.
    New map: Probing - Fixed signatures disappearing when resizing probe formation.
    New map: Fixed an issue causing some players' map to not load at all.
    New map: Improved probe formation resizing refresh rate.
    New map: Fixed beacons not showing up.
    New map: Probing - Fixed FPS issue when having many scan results.

    http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-scylla

    Please keep the feedback coming, and expect another sizable map update in our next big release on April 28th Big smile
    Arkolino
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #51 - 2015-03-31 19:01:10 UTC
    Double clicking on a probe in the scanner window should center the screen at that probe. Doesn't work in the beta map.
    Aivlis Eldelbar
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #52 - 2015-03-31 19:52:08 UTC
    it's now a bit easier to d-scan with the new map, but it still feels a bit sluggish. The zoom level is still insufficient, I can't scan moons and belts from so far away Sad

    Also, another thing I've ran into: while it's great to have a non-fullscreen map, when windowed (floating) it comes to the front obscuring the dscan window and others if clicked... is there any way you could make it behave as if it's docked while it's in floating mode (ie.: a click on it doesn't bring it to the front?)

    Overall I think it's moving in the right direction, but needs to be made at least as responsive as the old map before people will start using it for routine things like probing and d-scanning; when I'm trying to find a time-critical target I couldn't care less about the overall beauty of the map.
    Aston Martin DB5
    Deaths Consortium
    Pandemic Horde
    #53 - 2015-03-31 20:17:37 UTC
    Pretty sexy new map.
    Kata Amentis
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #54 - 2015-03-31 21:57:30 UTC
    I tried scanning down a sleeper cache after downtime today.... with the new map I wasn't able to zoom in far enough to arrange the probes tightly enough to get a 100% lock. I resorted to the old map and zoomed in close to do the final 95%->100% movements where probes needed to be dragging slightly down/left/right a small amount to get a lock.

    Curiosity killed the Kata... ... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count.
    Zappity
    New Eden Tank Testing Services
    #55 - 2015-03-31 22:43:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zappity
    I tested probing - much better but not there yet:

    • The circle pointer is irritating. It makes me think the map is waiting to load something and there is no precision. Please give us back the old crosshairs.
    • I really dislike the inertia. Please get rid of it. The map needs to be FAST for probing.
    • The little probe icons get in the way of the middle probe white square that you use to drag the arrangement around the map. It is really hard to grab that white square at the moment. The white square needs to be on top all the time since it is what is used most of the time. Sometimes this disappears altogether when you get a scan result - bad.
    • I don’t like the inverted teardrop markers for celestials. We need precision for probing and they are too vague. I.e. where EXACTLY is that moon I am trying to place my probes on?
    • The map doesn’t zoom in far enough.
    • The map should follow me to the next system when I jump. At the moment the map stays behind in the last system when you go through a stargate. It should automatically pan to the current system.
    • Finally, I would love to be able to adjust the position of the probes with hotkeys…



    In short, please concentrate on function over form for the probing map. It needs to be fast, precise and easy to rapidly use.

    Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
    Vala Ancalagon
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #56 - 2015-04-01 00:14:31 UTC
    I've had a chance to try probing in the beta map, and have a few comments.

    What I like:
    - the look is great (on both full map and solar map!)
    -The sizing and docking options are nice
    -I like having the scanner windowed inside the client. Now I can see other things better.

    What I don't like:
    -The "inertia" feel of the map while trying to scan. It's just cumbersome, and really slows down scanning. I wouldn't use it over the current map to scan if I wasn't testing it. The old map is quick, "snappy" might describe it. Just watch a few videos on how fast people can scan down something. It would be impossible with this inertia dragging your movements.
    -The circle cursor. For some reason this doesn't click with me, and I have trouble with it. I prefer a pointer for precision. Dragging the scanner arrows proved difficult as it is a very small window to catch them.

    Nitpicky things:
    -I don't like the black background on sigs, wh markers, etc. I'd rather have the red dot or green arrow sit in space without it, with kind of a hologram/transparent look. Like I said, nitpicky!
    -Maybe have the option to put the probe scanner controls within this window? Then I can open it fullscreen!
    -I turned off moons and probes immediately, they really get in the way.

    Question:
    -Can bookmarks be made to work in wormholes when you go to focus current location?

    As others have said, the ease of use and responsiveness of the map needs to at least match the current one. I think that's the number one thing. Thank you for the continued work!
    FistyMcBumBardier
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #57 - 2015-04-02 18:10:55 UTC
    So when zoomed in on the map like this: http://i.imgur.com/LKmoFnO.jpg

    Is it possible to have an option to remove having the '0.0' next to each system and instead colour the systems name the colour of the security status.
    Saisin
    Chao3's Rogue Operatives Corp
    #58 - 2015-04-02 20:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Saisin
    Glad to see the fixes to the scanning using beta map this week, with the red dot being back and the sigs not disappering after resizing probes.

    A few more things to consider.
    - Give the option to users to replace the beta map background "nebula/sk" image with either a full black or a full light gray background.
    - When scanning, always light the cube and arrows of the prob as if it was lit from the current camera pow
    - when scanning have the cursor change to the previous map pointer when on one of the arrow of the probe's cube control, and turn blue when the user is at the right place to resize the probes bubble.
    - When focused on current location, make sure the map updates to the current system after jumping in.
    - show fleet members in the system view (I would say even if they are cloaked)
    - when in galaxy mode, show the current route on the map, and display the boxes under the current system name (like it is in the upper left of the main screen).
    - when in window floating mode, have a minimize option like any other windows
    - corp and personal location dont seem to show up in WH system view
    - Possibility to tie the system view to the current overview settings and see there all the items in the system that are visible in the current overview, and revert back to the default list if the use current overview option is unchecked.


    I really like the beta map mode, great job, keep it up!

    Vote Borat Guereen for CSM XII

    Check out the Minarchist Space Project
    FistyMcBumBardier
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #59 - 2015-04-03 11:04:43 UTC
    Is it possible to get a darker shade of blue for when you select the probes? Right now it is extremely difficult to actually see when you have probes selected and when you have other objects selected. This could also be remedied by making the background darker.

    http://i.imgur.com/DmvDTj2.jpg

    Is it possible to have an option so that when looking at the full map we have abstract layout, but when we focus on our current system to do probe scanning the system is in 3d? I ask mostly because it is easiest for me looking at the constellation/region map in abstract layout, but it is impossible to probe also while in abstract layout.

    Please remove the circular targeting reticule when trying to select probes.

    When selecting a different preset formation for my probes in my probe scanner overview. I have to first select which preset I want, and then click on the icon again to actually set them to that preset formation. Is it possible to make it so that as soon as I select one of those preset formations that my probes automatically move into the formation? This would drastically decrease the number of clicks I have to use while scanning.

    Thanks for all of your hard work and have a great easter vacation.

    FistyMcBumBardier
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #60 - 2015-04-03 11:08:22 UTC
    CCP Turtlepower wrote:
    Today we deployed a patch that should have fixed many of the issues mentioned in this thread. From the patch notes:

    New map: Probing - Fixed results with low scan strength showing up black rather than red.
    New map: Probing - Fixed false positives sometimes not showing up.
    New map: Probing - Fixed signatures disappearing when resizing probe formation.
    New map: Fixed an issue causing some players' map to not load at all.
    New map: Improved probe formation resizing refresh rate.
    New map: Fixed beacons not showing up.
    New map: Probing - Fixed FPS issue when having many scan results.

    http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-scylla

    Please keep the feedback coming, and expect another sizable map update in our next big release on April 28th Big smile


    Good work, those changes have made using the new beta map much easier. Is there any chance we can get a list of what to expect from the map in the next update? Or do we have to go onto Sisi to find out for ourselves?